If sticking with Alpha Octant designs, perhaps a Federation ship based on the old heavy cruiser might be distinct enough from the "saucer-and-nacelle" template to warrant a degree of consideration.

Alternatively, a would-be tournament cruiser based on the Federal Republic of Aurora battlecruiser would be more distinct still. The "historical" ship has three photons (1 FA, 1 LF+L, and 1 RF+R); 2 light photons (1 LF+L and 1 RF+R); a mix of phaser-1 and phaser-3 armament; plus a choice of either 2 short-range cannon (1 LS and 1 RS) or 2 type-B tachyon missile launchers (which could be scaled down to type-As for tournament purposes, if so required). And, while the historical ship is capable of swapping out some of its admin shuttles for shuttle bombs, those could be kept off the table if they were considered to be a less than balancing factor.

Either way, I think it would be more interesting to give the Feds (or FRA) a ship which is "something different" while not being a "fast" hull. Other parsec-ages might vary, of course...

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Saturday, April 08, 2023 - 08:54 pm: Edit

I find this thread really fascinating. While there's definitely a few people that think the Fed is fine as-is (and I think it's mostly agreed that it's _balanced_ just a little swingy), I have gotten the impression that at least a notable majority of people are in favor of some sort of change.

The obvious change (since any suggestions to normalize photon die rolls have been nixed) is, "Drop a photon and put a Ph-1 in its place." Which sounds like that would look something like a tournament variant of the CF. But then we get what sounds like another majority of players going, "Oh, no, not _that_ change."

Gary, that's an interesting proposal, definitely keep the new/interesting ideas flowing!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, April 08, 2023 - 10:38 pm: Edit

I probably ought to have mentioned this in my last post - but I should note that discussions on adjusting pre-existing tournament SSDs are typically held in this thread; whereas discussions on adding new TCs (in Alpha or elsewhere) are covered in this thread instead.

So it might be best to move the relevant discussions being held here over to those threads, rather than risk them being "lost" in this one.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Sunday, April 09, 2023 - 01:47 am: Edit

3.1 kingzilla RKR VS CrashandBurn WAX (HHBB)

Turn one
I (RKR) allocated 28/16/then speed 31 on imp 22 with both S torps loaded as standard and 5 in trac,1 ww. Crash (Aux) went speed 31 towards me with some slipping out a little and I went towards him slipping in. On impulse, 12 Crash turned to cross the T at range 15ish - he turned towards me to get a shot at my #1 shield while being able to run from plasma later in the turn. When Crash turned in, I knew he did not want to be close to me and just wanted a range 8 shot so I waited for an impulse to launch 2 fake S torps just to keep him honest and keep him to his plan. On impulse 18 Crash fires 4p1 and an OL & standard direct fire hellebores at my #1 doing 20 points of damage, I block 4 with bats. Impulse 19 Crash turns off and I advance my speed 31 on impulse 20 with a bat to chase him. On each impulse, 30,31,32 Crash launches 2 drones. Impulse 32 Crash ends up about 5 hexes from the top of the board facing F with me 6 hexes below him facing F. I fire at 2 drones with p1 and not killing them.

Turn 2
My goal for turn 2 was to force him to eat 50 points of plasma or ED or crash the wall. So, I allocated 28 for 6 impulses then 20 for the rest of the turn. I recharged phasers by 1 and put a point into trac while keeping the ww – I also refilled my batts. There are still 6 drones between us. Crash went speed 30 all turn. We both went straight towards f for the for 1st 6 impulses and I fired a little at drones. On impulse 6 - I speed changed to 20 and launched S & F on the right side knowing that if he ran them out, they would auto hit him for 45. On impulse 7 I turn off direction E and Crash is trying to outrun the plasmas. On impulse 13 I realize we are getting closer to the left-side corner of the map and the Plasma won’t hurt him bad enough after he fires phaser at them, so I turn back into him direction f to launch my other S & F a little later in the turn while Crash is still running from the plasmas. At this point I still have 5 drones on me, and Crash is launching new drones as I kill the ones of that are 1 hex behind me. It’s a crazy plan and a lot can go wrong. Impulse 14 Crash fires all his phasers at the plasmas and impulse 15 he takes 27 on his 5 and he blocks 4 points of it. Impulse 16 Crash turns direction D and we are in a head-on collision about 5 hexes apart, so I launch the S & F. I have 3 new drones in front of me & 3 old ones behind me. This is about to get real for me, I look at the map and if I HET away Crash will be able to trac me so the next impulse I turn A, and Crash slips towards me. On impulse 20 Crash takes the 50 points on his offside # 2 for 20 internals and we are range ONE. We are on each other’s #6. Crash goes for a 1-point tractor that I block and launch 3 drones and there is already a drone in his hex for me with 2 drones my 3. I only have 2 phaser 1 and a phaser 3 left to fire. I see that if I speed change to 28 next impulse, I can outrun all the drones so I use 3 bats for a speed change and also added 1 to phasers. The next impulse I get an open shot on his down #5 shield and fire 2 p1 doing 8 more internals. The rest of the turn I ran away & Crash followed me. At the end of turn 2 Crash lost his #2 & 5 and down 6 power and 2 drone racks and 4 phasers. I don’t know how it happened, but I took no damage during the turn, but I am so empty.

Turn 3-5
Turn 3 I start the reloading process and run down the edge of the left side of the map and Crash follows me. The 1st ½ of turn Crash went speed 12 to turn around faster and that limited his ability turn 4. Turn 4, Crash had me on the lower part of the map but was not going fast enough to get range 8. Turn 5 I reloaded all plasmas as standards, but my phasers were close to dry. Crash went a mix of speed 4/8 so I did not engage him.

Turn 6
I am completely reloaded and go speed 21 for most of the turn. Crash starts at speed 4 so I move in towards him. When we get to range 8 Crash fires an OL hellebore and brings my # 1 to 4 strength. The next impulse Crash speed changes to 8 and fires a standard hellebore and I use my batts to maintain the # 1 shield. I launch S & F thinking he will have a speed change in time to ww the plasmas. 8 impulses later with perfect timing Crash speed changes to 4 but the plasmas are 1 hex away and he moves next impulse. Crash had to turn off at speed 4 to avoid the plasma to ww, this opened his # 5 shield to me. I waited for the explosion period to end, and I was able to fire 5 p1 at r5 on the down shield for 7 internals after reinforcement. The next impulse I fired 3 p3 doing 3 more damage knowing the drones if he launched them, was no threat. That was the only time during the game I rolled great. Crash called it at this point. I enjoyed the game and Crash was shocked that I turned back in turn 2. Great game for both of us.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 10, 2023 - 11:28 am: Edit

Note my proposal for the TCF is to *playtest* it. Like, thoroughly. It would only be proposed for addition to the field if we had hard data showing that it is a balanced contender. Actually adding the TCF would probably require several tournaments where it was available for play test (*after* thorough play testing gave it a preliminary positive rating).

As for the Fed performance - one tournament performance is effectively anecdotal next to the large number of data points in the Schirmer analysis. While Schirmer's analysis did not include the G rack, the G rack won't help much against BP (though I can only imagine it helps against D&D).

I am still convinced that there is a strong case that the Fed performance is too inconsistent to be a mid to top tier contender (and it should be as the PR flagship of the SFU). The Fed should have an option for a ship that is has a *consistent* and *balanced* performance.

Don't get me wrong. If the TCF doesn't happen, it's no skin off my back, but I would like to see it and I'm willing to do the work to make it happen.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, April 10, 2023 - 11:50 am: Edit

I can't remember for sure - there has been 12 finished Sapphires and 2 finished Crown tournaments. In all those I don't think the Fed TCC has won any of them. I also have all the captains logs with Origins and some Gencon reports, about 40 tournament results. I can tell you, in all of those the Fed won Origins fleet and Patrol once each in 1994 & 1995. Both of those players are multi-fleet captains. I read those reports and can see some players they beat who are still playing today. In those matches, the Fed player always hit with 3 on the first shot often at range 5. My point is, even in 1994-1995 these fleet captains needed good luck against todays players to win.

I don't know why players would want to keep a ship as is that doesn't win tournaments and yet wrecks tournaments at the same time? The prospect of beating a stronger player or losing to a weaker player on a roll of 4 dice is somehow exciting? Is it nostalgia? Is it not wanting to learn how to beat a better Fed? I mean I really don't get it.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Monday, April 10, 2023 - 04:03 pm: Edit

The Fed TCC has won two C5N tourneys IIRC (both the G rack version I believe) Both were by top players.
But, I have won games where top players hit with 1 of 8 overloaded disruptors in the Klingon against me.... The Fed has more luck variability, but luck will still be a significant part of the game regardless.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 12, 2023 - 12:39 am: Edit

MadJack (Hydran) over Hood (Fed) in about 7 turns. Very close difficult game that ended when the Fed brokedown on his 2nd HET. He probably wins if he makes it.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, April 12, 2023 - 10:14 am: Edit

That Fed is so luck dependent!

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Wednesday, April 12, 2023 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Does anyone have good recipes for cooking HYD? I thinking well done by PLASMA.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 12, 2023 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Romulan Kabob's next weekend. Everyone's invited. Free entertainment but the show will probably be short, all things considered. BYOB.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 12, 2023 - 08:53 pm: Edit

double post

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, April 14, 2023 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Good luck to you both.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Sunday, April 16, 2023 - 12:22 pm: Edit

4.1 kingzilla RKR vs MadJack HYD
game time Friday 4/21/23 6pm est

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, April 21, 2023 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Seth and I played 10 full turns. It has been a ton of jockeying back and forth. I have hit with 4 out of 6 standard hellbores and rolled pretty poorly really with just about everything else. Seth bolted half his torps early but missed and certainly that would have been significant, even if one of those hits. He did hit with an bolt on like turn 10. His phaser dice have also not been awesome but better than mine I think. My fighters are dead and I still have all 4 shuttles. He has all his shuttles and still has both fakes. No internals between us. My shields are in better shape than his right now. Picking it back up tomorrow at 8p eastern

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, April 22, 2023 - 06:04 pm: Edit

We are now starting at 7p est if you want to watch

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 12:59 am: Edit

4.1 kingzilla RKR vs MadJack HYD
We are hoping to finish this Sunday 4/23/23 7pm est. we have played 2 nights and are about to start turn 22.

The RKR has 32 power and is down 2 p3 on weapons, shields are a mess but have a total of 53 shield boxes left. All the RKR shuttles are on the board but about to get killed. One fake was used and HET was used with 1 CDR left. Next Plasma hit must be a S.

The HYD has 35 power and is down a hell, fus and 2 p1. HYD shields are almost at the point of not powering them with 16 boxes left. HYD has 1 shuttle and no HET bonus but has 2 CDR. Both fighters lasted 11 turns and are long gone now.

Both of our dice on heavy weapons have been horrible. The RKR missed 2 rounds of S F bolt attacks and the HYD missed with a lot of Hellbores.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 04:47 am: Edit

The 2 players who like to accuse me of Non-Aggression are on Turn 22..........lolololololololol

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 11:02 am: Edit

Jason I respect you as a player and I believe you have strong moral principles. I jumped on you way too fast about non-aggression in our game and have regretted it.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 11:56 am: Edit

Jason, I too am sorry for accusing you of non-aggressiveness. Everyone has bad days and that was clearly one for me. Sorry.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Seth wins Sapphire 13. Great job Seth! Congratulations!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 23, 2023 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Congrats, Seth!

How did it end?

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, April 24, 2023 - 01:23 pm: Edit

Seth played great and the usual thing happened to me even though I also played great !!

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, April 24, 2023 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Congrats to Seth on the Sapphire Star 13 win.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 12:05 am: Edit

Congratulations, Seth!

Both played skillfully, I watched a fair bit of the game.

What I saw was many choices for a long-game; a few times, I saw the Rom turn off when he could have been more threatening with plasma. I saw the Hydran emer-decel for a WW, at least twice, once to avoid 50 (one of which was fake), and once in the end game to avoid a quick load. Both of them had chances to score a more decisive blow, if they took a bit more risk. That is a tough thing to do in the final!

It was a long, well-fought battle.

BTW Seth, I want my ship back!