This idea is something which spun out of a thread elsewhere on the BBS, which I felt worth expanding upon in its own thread. So, here we are!

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The basic premise of this proposal is as follows: what would happen in the event that a Tholian, Seltorian, or other force from the M81 Galaxy were to find itself arriving in the Omega Octant?

As seen in the likes of Module C6 and Module R4J, there are multiple contingencies which might be involved, and thus multiple timelines which might ensue.

For example, perhaps there is an alternate timeline in which the Holdfast Sphere crossed the Galactic Energy Barrier in Omega instead of in Alpha. Or, there might be a Seltorian Tribunal expedition which finds itself in Omega, regardless of whether a prior Tholian presence was to be found or not. Or, there could be a High Pirate Band in M81 itself which finds itself encountering a Vortex, which dumps it somewhere on the Omega Octant hex map.

Of course, the Bolosco are themselves from M81, so there is already a "home galaxy" presence in Omega. Although it is noted in an issue of Captain's Log that the old galaxy Tholians and Bolosco never met; the Bolosco had fled M81 before the Tholians expanded into the former Bolosco home region.

And while the main focus here is on Omega, it is certainly possible to expand the focus of such a discussion towards other non-Alpha settings, such as the Lesser Magellanic Cloud or the Triangulum Galaxy. Indeed, Module C5 already offers a few hints as to what such a setup might look like in the LMC...

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In the case of the Tholians, I see two main options.

As suggested above, one idea would be to see what might happen in the event that the Holdfast Sphere itself were to have arrived in Omega, instead of in Alpha.

Another idea would be for a separate band of Tholian exiles - with or without a Sphere of their own - to land somewhere along the Galactic Rim instead.

But in the case of the "Omega-Holdfast" option, there would be a number of items to consider.

Firstly, there is the question of exactly where along the Galactic Rim they might arrive. Given that the Loriyill Home Stars are strictly off-limits to outsiders, and that the other Omega empires close to the Rim have "modern" warp technology by Y79 (unlike the Klingons, who were still in the Early Years when the Tholians historically arrived in the Alpha Octant), it might be best to pick somewhere along the Rim which is unclaimed space on the Y100 Omega hex map. Which would also mean that the "Omega-Holdfast" would have no local colonies to exact tribute from - and no local samples of base technology to copy from. But, on the other hand, they would have more room to expand unopposed.

Secondly, there is the matter of civilian units. Given how wide-spread the "Mæsron-type" civilian units from Captain's Log #20 have proved to be, I'd see no problem with these Tholians making use of the same templates also, once they get a hold of them at some point in time.

Thirdly, there is the question of what to do about particle cannons. Historically, the early Holdfast lacked the means of building more - so when the last NFF was lost in battle, they launched a daring raid which led them to acquire Klingon disruptor technology. While they would later acquire samples of photon torpedo technology from the Federation. In Omega, should they be allowed to develop a limited production run of particle cannons? Or, if not, is there a local weapon which is both simple enough to adapt technology-wise and reasonably accessible from their arrival point along the Galactic Rim (wherever that might be) for them to adopt instead?

Fourthly, there is the question of attrition units. Just as the Holdfast Tholians adopted fighters in Alpha, I would assume the "Omega-Holdfast" would be able to do the same, once they encounter examples of "metal-hull" fighters used by other Omega empires. Similarly, just as the historical Holdfast adopted "hot warp" Interceptors and PFs, I would well see the "Omega-Holdfast" deploying "volatile warp" gunboats once that technology becomes available.

And fifthly: while we don't yet know what "Mæsron-type" first-generation X-technology looks like, I would guess that it would be as viable for these Tholians to adopt it as it was for them to adopt Alpha Octant-type X1-tech historically.

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The Seltorians open a number of questions of their own.

Firstly, how would they get there? Would the Burning Torch of Vengeance arrive in Omega, instead of in Alpha, in pursuit of a would-be "Omega-Holdfast?" Or would an entirely separate Tribunal expedition, led by a Hive or Nest Ship, show up instead?

Either way, similar questions would apply.

For one thing, I would say that, just as the Seltorians were obliged to rely on Klingon mercenary pilots (and imported Klingon fighter types) in Alpha, the same would be the case as regards "mercenary" pilots in Omega. The Qixa are already noted as using such "mercenary" fighters on occasion, primarily to support long-range trading missions sent outside of the Qixavalor Cloud, so there is a local precedent for such a setup. Although, I would not be opposed to the Seltorians adopting an imported heavy weapon fighter type to operate particle cannons, in the same manner as fighter-mounted particle beams in Vari service. Or at the very least, they could hire the odd mercenary carrier or two.

In the case of Omega, if the Seltorians did not find a "host" empire to provide such pilots (the way the Klingons hosted the Torch expedition historically), there are a number of "mercenary" factions (the Iridani, Bolosco, and Zosmans) they could work with instead.

Similarly, just as with the Tholians, I would see no issue with the "Omega-Seltorians" adopting "volatile warp" gunboat technology - as well as Mæsron-type X1-tech.

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Meanwhile, one could have an M81 High Prate Band flee Tholian and/or Seltorian pursuit by diving into a Vortex... and thus find themselves dumped somewhere on the Omega hex map.

In which case, I would suggest that any of the local direct-fire heavy weapons the Zosman Marauders are permitted to salvage in Captain's Log #52 would be on the table here also. Although I would consider barring them from using any seeking weapons.

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For any of the above arrivals, there are a few Omega-wide technology notes worth keeping in mind - such as the availability of limited Aegis from Y194 onward.

So, does this kind of "threat file" sound like it might be of interest?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 09:52 pm: Edit

To go into the particle cannon question for the Tholians in a little more detail:

I would see there being three means by which a would-be "Omega-Holdfast" would potentially gain access to a replacement heavy weapon.

The first would be by acquiring such a weapon - through fair means or foul - from an adjacent, or at least reasonably nearby, Omega empire.

The second would be directly from one of the three "mercenary" factions operating across the Omega Octant.

While the third would be via one of those "mercenary" factions, should they be minded to transmit such technology from a more distant Omega faction (say, to fulfill the terms of a given Iridani captain's Quest).

Which, of course, all depends on where exactly the Tholians would arrive - and, thus, what kind of environment they would be obliged to build their Holdfast in.

I would limit the overall choice to direct-fire weapons which are not otherwise restricted to their operating empire(s). As in, it would be a direct-fire sub-set of the heavy weapon list available to the Zosmans under (OR23.RA11).

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As noted earlier, any arrival into the Loriyill Home Stars would be a non-starter. So any remotely viable contingency would have to be either to the "east" or "west" of Loriyill home space.

For what it's worth, I was thinking of two main contingencies - each of which could be explored as distinct timelines:

The "western" contingency would see the Holdfast sphere arrive in, or close to, the unclaimed region on the Y100 map between the Chlorophon Association and the Sigvirion Expansion, rimward of the Qixavalor Cloud.

The "eastern" contingency, by contrast, would see the sphere cross the Galactic Barrier far to the east of the Home Stars, in the area rimward of the Jindarian Freehold.

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In the "western" scenario, the Phons would not necessarily be openly aggressive towards the Tholians, so long as the latter kept to their side of the border. The Sigs, on the other hand, would likely see the Tholians as a threat - despite, or rather because of, their inherent immunity to Sig infection.

Over time, the Mæsrons wold expand into the region, as they conquered the Phons and launched a campaign of xenocide against the Sig home planets. This in later decades would be followed by Probr and Koligahr activity in the region, as the Mæsrons buckle under the strains of the Civil War and Collapse.

So in technological terms, the "western" Tholians would have access to energy howitzers, tachyon guns, and antimatter cannons at various points in time. I wouldn't be in a hurry to grant these Tholians access to any seeking weapons - or, for that matter, to Koligahr antimatter cloud generators - while other technologies in the region (such as Phon spore casters) are restricted technologies in any event.

The "western" contingency would make it difficult for the Seltorians to function without a host empire.

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The "eastern" contingency provides different opportunities - and different challenges.

On the one hand, the Tholians would have much more time and space to settle in and to prepare themselves for the inevitable First Contact with the nearest Omega empires.

Of those, the Koligahr (once again) would show up in the region, as would the Alunda Host. Since Alunda biology is incompatible with "metal-hull" technology, and since the Freehold would (presumably) use the same restricted Jindarian systems that species operates in Alpha and in the LMC, that would leave the aforementioned antimatter cannon as the nearest viable heavy weapon - unless a long-range mission to the far side of the Freehold were to acquire samples of particle beam or sting torpedo tech from the Vari or Hivers.

With more unclaimed space available much later in the timeline, this contingency would make it easier to establish a stand-alone Seltorian Tribunal zone, without the need to designate a host empire.

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As for the main "mercenary" factions:

The bulk of Bolosco technology is restricted to that empire, so would be off-limits to the Tholians.

In principle, the Iridani focused energy beam could be salvaged and operated. In practice, without the target illuminator (a system unique to Iridani Quest ships), the use of the FEB is less than optimal.

As for the Zosmans: the "at-home" Zosmans in the Phi Sector make use of Mæsron-sourced weapon systems. Although the "on-map" Marauder cells tend to use whatever weapons they can salvage from their target empires. What this might mean for the Tholians is an open question.

That said, it is possible that, for the right price, the Bolosco or Zosmans might be minded to provide samples of certain more distant technologies. Although I think it more likely that an Iridani captain might be a better source of such far-flung tech, as he might be obliged to do such a thing in order to carry out the terms of his Quest. (It would not be the first time that Quests have involved some degree of technology transfer. after all...)

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On a side note, it would be interesting to see what kind of diplomatic correspondence would take place between the "Omega-Holdfast" and the silicate Trobrin Empire.

On the one hand, even if the two species were to find a sense of common ground, the fact that the Trobrin would be the ones negotiating from a position of strength would no doubt strain even the best of intentions on either side.

But on the other hand, if one of the Empire's carbon-based rivals were to be left with the impression - fairly or otherwise - that the Tholians would serve as a "natural" Trobrin ally, that might make them just a little bit more open to hosting a Seltorian Tribunal force proclaiming their willingness to take care of the problem for them...

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, June 20, 2023 - 05:50 pm: Edit

They would likely have been destroyed by the existing powers I would think. The Romulans were too primitive at the time to do it, the Federation did not have the morals to do it, and the Klingons were preoccupied. The Tholians benefited from the right circumstances at the right time.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Well, Omega already provides room for other "blow-ins" - such as the Federal Republic of Aurora and the Omega-Paravians - to develop as local powers.

Of course, the context for each of those empires is quite different from one another (and we still need to see more printed data on the Paravian side of the equation). And it would have to be different again for any would-be Tholian or Seltorian presence to be duly accounted for.

But even in the Alpha Octant, the Seltorians are an active faction for only four years, give or take - which is still long enough for them to exist as an "Alpha" faction of note. How long would they (or the Tholians, for that matter) need to survive in a given Omega contingency for them to be viable as an "Omega" faction?

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, June 22, 2023 - 12:39 pm: Edit

The Seltorians survived because the Klingons found them useful to have around. When they no longer felt this way, they destroyed them. (They also allowed the Vudar to remain because it was beneficial to have them).

Had the Seltorians arrived and the Tholians had been conquered by the Klingons, they would have found a most unwarm welcome

Where on the Omega map are the conditions most favorable for these empires to arrive is probably the first thing to consider. Perhaps the Tholians arrived in the Iridani Cluster during the warp-refitted or early years period and wiped them out, establishing a stronghold for them to build a small empire unnoticed.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 30, 2023 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Bear in mind that, for the "eastern" contingency at least, there is still a significant amount of unclaimed space along that portion of the Galactic Rim even on the Y183 Omega map. While the short-lived Iridani New Kingdom would show up somewhere in the area later on, it would not be until the Sixth Cycle before the region is occupied in force by the Andromedans and Souldra - as shown on the Y192 Omega map. And it would be unclaimed once again by the end of the Invasions, remaining so by the time of the Y210 Omega hex map.

We don't yet have an Omega hex map which is set later than Y210. But according to the Omega timeline in the 2011 Omega Master Starship Book, the area along the Galactic Rim to the "east" of the Loriyill Home Stars would be divided between the Koligahr Solidarity, the Vulpa Confederacy, and the Echarri Dynasty by the end of the Seventh Cycle in Y221. Although it's noted that much of the region, to include what used to be Singer space, remains deeply scarred in the aftermath of the Invasions.

So, if the Tholians - and, later on, the Seltorians - were to arrive in the "eastern" portion of the Galactic Rim, they'd have both time and space to try and settle in before the nearest Omega empires expand into that region.

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Although, perhaps one could spin off a third contingency out of the "eastern" option - by having the arriving Seltorians run into a Sigvirion refugee ship upon arriving in Omega, as a fateful "First Contact" in the region.

A "Sig-torian" faction would have a very different set of priorities to a regular Seltorian Tribunal force. But, as was the case with the Nucian Treska Clan at the onset of the Second Great War, they might not necessarily want to tip their hand right away, in terms of revealing to other empires that they are a Sigvirion-controlled faction.

Which might mean, for example, that they would still make a show of attacking the Tholians, if only to avoid raising questions as to why they would not do so. Of course, the Sigs would still see the destruction of the Tholians - and, indeed, of any other species (like the Trobrin) they cannot infect - as a long-term goal. But they would be much less driven to do so sooner rather than later than their Seltorian "hosts" would have been.

Indeed, if you think about what kind of missions Seltorian ships are designed to carry out, the Sigs might find them to be quite useful means by which to spread the next wave of infection. But, again, perhaps only once they have taken the time to prepare a new set of viral strains capable of bypassing the latest crop of anti-Sig inoculations.

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As for the Iridani Cluster:

By Y79, the Iridani already have a range of "middle years" Quest ships in service, up to and including the Barque light cruiser. Historically, the Galleon has a YIS date of Y82, while the Clipper's YIS date is Y90.

Further, unlike what was the case with, say, the Andromedans, it might be more likely that the Iridani would detect the Sphere on an approach vector, and thus start to assemble enough of a task force to give the Tholians pause for thought.

But then, if the Tholians chose to exercise caution, they might find the Iridani willing to provide useful information - such as, say, how much unclaimed space there is along the Galactic Rim, and how to prepare for the force of the Galactic Energy Barrier while making the crossing - if the Tholians were to agree to turn the Sphere away from the Cluster and towards the Milky Way Galaxy instead.

Indeed, since the Iridani acquired samples of the four Omega "civilian" ships from Captain's Log #20 in Y77, they could further sweeten the deal by offering these templates to the Tholians in turn - once the Sphere crosses the Barrier and settles in safely away from the Cluster, that is.

Which leaves the question: would the Tholians take the deal, or would they throw caution to the wind and try to seize the Throne Planet regardless?

Personally, I think one extra-galactic invasion is more than enough for the Cluster...

...but I suppose that, even if the Tholians were to take the deal, the Iridani might "wake up" enough to fortify their home space more heavily than they did historically. Which might mean fewer Quest ships being sent out at any given time. It might also mean no Iridani New Kingdom - or, perhaps there might be a more centrally-organized "Iridani Galactic Marches" set up instead? Either way, they'd have more of a fighting chance to fend off the Andromedans, as and when that later invasion rolls around.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 02, 2023 - 09:30 pm: Edit

To look at the Seltorian (and/or "Sig-torian") options in further detail:

F&E Minor Empires offers relevant data points on what the Torch expedition historically brought with it to the Alpha Octant; what production capacities (and limitations) were involved; and to what extent certain features are dependent on the goodwill (or otherwise) of a host empire (if one exists).

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Note that, under (715.1), Seltorian ship production is marked by the number of hull sections (of a given size) and small booms they can build in a given six-month F&E game turn, plus the number of medium or large booms they can churn out in a given full year.

Knowing that the innate production capacity of a given Hive or Nest Ship went only so far, the Seltorians equipped the Burning Torch of Vengeance with the components needed to set up a prefabricated shipyard, or TSY (546.4). Both Hive and Nest ships being sent on Tribunal expeditions are liable to bring a TSY with them, though the degree of augmentation provided to a Nest Ship is lesser than that provided to a Hive Ship.

Beginning on the turn the Seltorians set up a new base planet (546.11), it takes four turns (two full years) to complete the TSY. The Hive or Nest Ship itself must be assigned the appropriate "tug" mission under (546.35) throughout this process.

Once the TSY is complete, the Seltorians can (with the approval of the host empire, if there is one) pay 6 EPs a turn over six turns (three full years) to build a medium shipyard (546.51) - which enables them to construct the large hulls and large booms need to field BCs and DNs.

While the Seltorians can build a certain number of minor shipyards and conversion facilities (again, with the host empire's approval, if there is one) as soon as the base planet is up and running, they have to wait until after a medium shipyard is built before they are allowed to build a light cruiser slip [(546.52)].

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One issue is that historically, certain "mission variants" (such as carriers) and certain unit types (such as "three-boom" NCLs) required support from the Klingons to bring them into being. While a "host" empire in Omega could help with some of these items, I suspect a "mercenary" faction would provide a more limited set of support options.

But then, in a circumstance where the Seltorians are going without a "host" empire, perhaps it might be possible for them to build certain mission variants, like survey cruisers, they did not field historically - perhaps once they encounter a ship with a comparable mission profile. Or, in the case of the "Sig-torians", if they bring the knowledge of such variants with them to their new hosts...

I would still say that the "Sig-torians" cannot operate fighters - or rather, that the Sigs cannot use Seltorian host bodies to serve as pilots. But then, even the "standard" Sig fleet has no fighters as of yet; perhaps the innate "interface delay" between a Sig and its host (as described here) makes it difficult for them to fly fighters, regardless of which species is being infected?

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They can start planting colonies on various planets once the TSY is operational. Yet so far as bases go, they'd have to wait until after the medium yard (again, five full years after they establish their new base planet) is built before they can construct mobile bases or mobile operations bases... if they know what such bases are, that is.

While battle stations and starbases existed back in the home galaxy, it would appear that mobile bases did not - except perhaps to represent a larger base under partial construction, as suggested by (R1.24-7HG) in the Tholian Master Starship Book. Without any Alpha Octant mobile base or mobile operations bases to draw from, any Seltorians in Omega would have to look at what would be available locally (or draw from their own knowledge of such things, in the case of the "Sig-torians") if they wish to proceed in building anything approaching a "traditional" empire.

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So, if one assumes an equivalent arrival date to that marked historically over in the Alpha Octant, that would mean they wouldn't be able to start building bases until Y187 at the earliest. But they would be able to start amassing a larger fleet, to include fielding the Size Class 2 ships they had to go without in the Alpha Octant, and perhaps even an SR or few?

However, there would be no "three-boom" ship classes (unless a host empire provides the necessary assistance design-wise); no fighters (unless a host and/or mercenary faction can be persuaded to supply them); no PFs (at least not until "volatile warp" engines are invented and passed around); and no X-ships (until Mæsron-type X1-tech is invented and passed around in turn).

Would this be enough for them to "settle in", before the Andromedans and/or Souldra show up in force?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 14, 2023 - 12:58 am: Edit

A few other thoughts, based on this evening's Talkshoe discussion:

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Historically, as marked in the SFB Y-modules and in the Tholian Master Starship Book, the Holdfast Sphere had two encrypted data banks of note: one with details on how to build particle cannons, plus a second with files on web casters. However, since no-one still alive in the Holdfast Sphere had access to the naval command codes needed to decrypt them, an attempt was made to hack into the particle cannon files... triggering a catastrophic failsafe which destroyed the files and self-destructed the storage system they had been on. As a result, the web caster files were left alone, until Y179 (when senior naval officers from the 312th showed up and provided their command codes).

However, in the Alpha Octant, the relatively high rate of attrition of the early Holdfast fleet in against the Klingons was a major reason why the Tholians were so heavily pressured into making the hack attempt in the first place - and, once that failed as badly as it did, to resolve to steal and reverse-engineer disruptor bolt technology from the Klingons.

In contrast, in one of the "eastern" Omega contingencies, the Tholians might not be under the same external pressures, at least not right away. The Zosmans don't begin launching "on-map" raids until Y107; the Bolosco do not reach the "eastern" side of Omega for several more decades; while the Iridani would be sending Quest ships by then, though they might learn quickly to give the Tholians a wide berth.

So, it is possible that these Tholians don't feel pressured to do something about the particle cannon files right away - to the point that if one assumes the 312th shows up as "normal", they would be able to use their codes to unlock both the web caster and particle cannon files.

So, by the time the Second Great War begins to break out in Y180, the Tholians might already be well on the way to (re-)introducing particle cannons to their fleet.

This might mean that any ships which historically had disruptors in Alpha (such as destroyers or cruisers) prior to Y179 in Alpha might be phaser boats in this Omega contingency.

On the "western" side of Omega, however, pressure from the Sigvirions, Mæsrons, and/or Probr might lead to the same rushed efforts as in Alpha - and thus lead to a more urgent need to acquire local technology to make up for this.

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So far as the ships and attrition units the Tholians would use:

Once the Tholians learn about the "middle years" light and heavy cruisers being used in Omega - to include by the Iridani and Zosmans - they might be obliged to design the same "two-hull" cruisers one sees in the Middle Years Alpha Octant. Similarly, the "three-hull" dreadnoughts might well appear as and when Size Class 2 ships emerge for other Omega powers.

Indeed, one might see Tholian fighters and carriers appear much earlier than in Alpha, given how widespread warp-powered attack shuttle technology is in Omega at an earlier point in time.

On the other hand, sine the first Omega "war" ships do not appear until Y187, it might not be until a few years after that - just in time to face the Andromedan and Souldra invasions, perhaps? - before the first Tholian war cruisers and such appear in Omega.

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As for the Seltorians (or "Sig-torians"):

It's noted in (546.32) that Hive Ships and Nest Ships are very slow while in the Milky Way galaxy - only one hex per turn operationally, or only six hexes per turn strategically.

So even if, say, the Sigvirions were to take over a Hive Ship, every turn they attempt to move the ship elsewhere is one turn they are deferring the essential business of finding (and exploiting) a new base planet.

In other words, the "Sig-torians" would likely end up with the same starting point as the uninfected Seltorians, if only due to the need to get their new industrial base up and running.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 14, 2023 - 12:59 am: Edit

So there are a few contingencies shaping up thus far for the "what-if" Tholians and Seltorians in Omega:

1: The Holdfast Tholians show up in the "west" of Omega, where they:
1a - acquire energy howitzers from the Chlorophons to replace the particle cannon
1b - acquire tachyon guns from the Mæsrons to replace the particle cannon
1c - acquire antimatter cannons from the Koligahr to replace the particle cannon

2: The Holdfast Tholians show up in the "east" of Omega, where they:
2a - deploy phaser boats prior to Y179, and build their own particle cannons from Y179 onwards
2b - acquire the focused energy beam from the Iridani to replace the particle cannon
2c - acquire a heavy weapon from the Zosmans or via Bolosco intermediaries (tachyon gun, antimatter cannon, particle beam, or sting torpedo) to replace the particle cannon

3: The Holdfast Tholians arrive at the Iridani Cluster, where they:
3a - attack the Iridani
3b - cut a deal with the Iridani, leading to a modified version of contingency 2b (with a more carefully planned Barrier crossing)
3c - avoid the Iridani and go elsewhere (to Draco, perhaps?) instead

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For the 312th:

N1/N2: The 312h follows the Holdfast Tholians into Omega ("east" or "west"), where they:
N1a/N2a - find the Holdfast still active and join them
N1b/N2b - find the Holdfast has been destroyed and flee (to Draco, perhaps?)

N3: The 312th arrives in the Iridani Cluster, where they:
N3a - find a victorious Holdfast from contingency 3a and join them
N3b - find a victorious (and by now heavily fortified) Iridani from contingency 3a, where they:
N3b1 - attack the Iridani
N3b2 - go elsewhere (to Omega? Or to Draco?) in search of the Holdfast Sphere
N3c - find an unfortified Iridani Cluster (the Holdfast Tholians having gone elsewhere), where they:
N3c1 - attack the Iridani
N3c2 - go elsewhere (to Omega? Or to Draco?) in search of the Tholians

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As for the Seltorians - who, as a reminder, were following the 312th to Alpha historically:

S1: Seltorians arrive in the "west" of Omega, where they:
S1a - find a local empire, such as the Probr or Koligahr, to host their anti-Tholian campaign (there is no room for them to operate without one)

S2: Seltorians arrive in the "east" of Omega, where they:
S2a - start building an independent power base (with no host empire) from which to attack the Tholians
S2b - get taken over by the Sigvirions; the "Sig-torians" begin building an independent power base, but with less of a focus on fighting the Tholians

S3: Seltorians arrive at the Iridani Cluster, where they:
S3a - find a victorious Holdfast from contingency 3a (or a victorious 312th from contingencies N3b1 or N3c1) and fight them in a "private" war for the Cluster
S3b - find a victorious (and by now heavily fortified) Iridani from contingencies 3a, N3b1, and/or N3c1, where they:
S3b1 - attack the Iridani
S3b2 - go elsewhere (to Omega? Or to Draco?) in pursuit of the Tholians
S3c - find an unfortified Iridani Cluster (both the Holdfast and 312h having gone elsewhere), where they:
S3c1 - attack the Iridani
S3c2 - go elsewhere (to Omega? Or to Draco?) in pursuit of the Tholians

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I would not consider all of the above contingencies as being equally viable.

For example, if the Iridani succeed either in fighting off the Holdfast or in "guiding" them elsewhere, I don't think either the 312th or the Seltorians would be in a position to defeat a more heavily-fortified Cluster.

But I do find myself leaning more towards the various "eastern" contingencies listed above. Not least since those give the Tholians, the Seltorians, and/or the "Sig-torians" the most unclaimed space to try and settle into.

But that's my view, such as it is. Which, if any, of the above do any of you find of interest? Or do you have other contingencies you can think of instead?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 16, 2023 - 10:52 pm: Edit

So, I've been digging a bit more through the Tholian Master Starship Book, in search of ideas as to how to potentially handle the issue of bases for the "eastern" Omega-Holdfast contingencies.

As always, whether any of these are good ideas is another matter. But, here goes...

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According to the TMSSB, the Tholians had the blueprints on file for the various bases which had been used back in the Home Galaxy. What they lacked upon arrival in the Milky Way was the means to actually build them.

It would take the historical Holdfast more than a century to recover this technology in full: four to six decades to build up the capacity to construct "modern" base stations, battle stations, and starbases; and several decades more to upgrade the shielding, web deterioration rates, and other systems required to bring these bases up to the standards seen back in M81.

In the Alpha Octant, a key stepping stone was unwittingly (and most unwillingly) provided by the Klingons. The wreckage of the various Early Years bases which the Tholians destroyed in the process of establishing the Holdfast were studied in significant detail, leading to the building of the Tholian early space dock and early base station.

However, as is the case for the "native" Alpha empires, the Holdfast started with building bases entirely in place (as they had done back in M81); only later, when the mobile base is invented, do the Tholians figure out (at the same time as the Federation and Klingons) how to approach base building in a more fluid manner.

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By contrast, whether it's by showing up in the Iridani Cluster directly, or by running into Iridani Quest ships in the "eastern" contingencies, there is a different concept those Tholians might run into: that of the Iridani Supply Dock.

As can be seen over on Shapeways, the core of each supply dock is a pair of dock modules, designed to operate in tandem. These modules are transported (in an inactive state) and set in place by an Iridani Tugboat; between one and six Quest modules can then be connected to the supply dock in order to provide added capabilities.

These supply docks are placed along the routes travelled by the Iridani from their home Cluster to the Omega Octant and back again. They are also found on the inside of the Galactic Barrier; some of these bases on the inside of the Galaxy are in unclaimed space, while others exist only on the sufferance of whichever local Omega empire they are to be placed in.

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So, my thought was this:

What if the Omega-Holdfast were to take, say, four (or six) of their own cargo packs; re-configure them into an equivalent "small core unit" (when assembled on-site); and then find ways to add additional packs (of various kinds) in order to create an Omega-specific kind of prefabricated small base?

Further: if/when the Tholians gain access to the four "civilian" Mæsron-type transports from Captain's Log #20 (which, as noted earlier, the Iridani have to hand by this point in time), perhaps the Tholians could then take the larger cargo pods from the small and large freighters and modify them into the "large core units" of bigger prefab bases - to which more packs, and/or pods, could be attached?

Presumably, just as the likes of the cargo patrol corvette can transport a Federation-type cargo pod historically, the equivalent transport units here should be able to transport these Mæsron-type pods in this Galactic octant.

In terms of how these "core unit" pods might be configured: I'm minded of the outline of the Tholian base station design on Shapeways. Perhaps a "small core unit" made out of packs would be deployed facing "up", with any added packs extending out to the "sides"; while perhaps a "large core unit" might be made out of three modified cargo pods, each set at 120-degree angles to one another at the join?

On a side note: in the Alpha Octant, the Tholians develop the means to build their own merchant vessels at the Holdfast sphere by the Middle Years era. If a similar time frame (say, by Y120 or so) was required for the Omega-Holdfast to figure out how to build their own CL20 civilian ships, it might not be until at least then before the "large core unit" becomes available.

In which case, perhaps the time frames for the (re-)emergence of "regular" Tholian bases might be pushed back a decade or more: say, Y130 for the first base station; Y140 for the first battle station; Y150 for the equivalent of a sector base (not something the Tholians had in M81, but an interim step they might stumble across in this instance); and Y160 for the first true starbase.

And on a further side note: perhaps the Seltorians (or "Sig-torians") might steal the basic concept of the "large core unit" (if one assumes they gain access to the CL20 freighters also), which they might then use as a stepping stone towards the building of their own larger bases later on?

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By and large, I'm wary of seeing any empire end up with "standard" Alpha Octant (and/or M81) style bases in the Omega Octant.

Even in the case of the Federal Republic of Aurora: yes, they do start with a Federation base station, but even they don't take long to go in new directions - as evidenced by the pocket battlestation in Module Omega #3.

That said, in the specific case of the Tholians (and, by extension, the Seltorians), there is at least an argument to be made for them to be permitted to use such templates here... albeit with one or more Omega-specific stepping stones they would need to follow along the way.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 - 03:03 pm: Edit

In terms of the "local" direct-fire heavy weapons which might be an option for the Tholians in the various contingencies posted above, it might be worth offering brief overview of some of them, for anyone here who has yet to pick up their own copy of the 2011 Omega Master Rulebook.

So, in no particular order:

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Focused Energy Beam

The primary heavy weapon of the Iridani Questors. The Zosmans can install it in their heavy weapon option mounts, but their access to it is somewhat limited.

Each FEB has a phaser-like damage chart (as shown on these "-B" variant Iridani Quest ships; most Iridani ships set their FEBs to "broad-siding" arcs). They have a minimum 32-impulse delay between shots, and cost three points of power from any source. Note that while they can be armed from a ship's phaser capacitor, they themselves do not count towards the ship's total phaser capacitor level.

When used by the Iridani, the FEB is often paired with the target illuminator, which when activated offers a minus one die roll adjustment for any FEB or wide-angle phaser fire from the illuminating ship only, in the impulse he target is being "lit up". Since the target illuminator is restricted Iridani technology, other factions - such as the Zosmans, or in this case the Tholians - would have to make do without it when using the FEB.

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Tachyon Gun

The primary heavy weapon of the Mæsron Alliance, the "post-Mæsron" Vulpa insurgents, and of a number of "heterodox" Hives. The Zosmans in the "off-map" Phi Sector use this weapon, as do "on-map" Marauder cells in Mæsron, Vulpa, and/or the appropriate "heterodox" Hiver territories.

Tachyon guns arm over two turns, with as few as two to as many as eight points of power from any source that can be loaded overall. TGs are very accurate, but have a high holding cost. Plus, the maximum range is reduced as more power is loaded into the weapon.

Reserve power can be used to "top up" a TG shot as it is being fired; this can be considered akin to a "pseudo-overload". So ships with enough spare battery power might consider arming at a lower level, in order to keep their options open during the course of the second arming turn.

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Antimatter Cannon

The primary heavy weapon of the Koligahr Solidarity. Zosman Marauder cells in Koligahr space frequently use this weapon.

Another weapon with a 32-impulse firing cycle, each shot requires three points of power (two points of which must be warp power) for a standard load, or six points of power (four points of which must be warp power) for an "overload". As with a photon, an antimatter cannon does a consistent amount of damage per shot, regardless of range. However, there is no equivalent of a "proximity" mode in order to improve the weapon's accuracy at long range. Indeed, the "overload" has a maximum range of six hexes only.

There is, however, a "caseless" firing mode. It requires two points of power (one of which must be warp power) or a standard load, or four points of power (two of which must be warp power) for an "overload". However, while the amount of damage against unshielded targets is unaffected, shielded targets reduce the amount of damage scored by the strength of the facing shield; the shield itself is not damaged.

As in, say that a standard load "caaeless" shot is fired at a ship with an unreinforced five-point facing shield. The first five damage points are "lost", with no damage to the shield itself; the sixth damage point bypasses the shield and scores a point of internal damage.

I might have to double-check elsewhere if Andromedan ships count as being "unshielded" for the purpose of this weapon mode...

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Energy Howitzer

The primary heavy weapon of the Chlorophon Association. Zosman Marauder cells in Chlorophon space frequently use this weapon.

This weapon is Omega's closest equivalent to the Seltorian shield cracker - which of course makes it a very useful "pirate" weapon for the Zosman Marauders. Only in this instance, it strikes three adjacent shield facings at once. It has a flexible arming cycle; the three lower arming levels can be fired every turn, but the three higher levels impose a "cool-down" turn after firing. Unlike a (non-X) shield cracker, the EH can do a nominal amount of internals, but only against a down shield (or full PA panel). While there is no "web breaker" function to this weapon, it does ignore the Volley Reduction Factor of Lesser Magellanic Cloud warships from SFB Module C5.

Since EHs always score a point of degradation against PA panels (albeit with only two damage elements scored against Andro units with hemispheric panel banks), and since the striking against three adjacent shield facings oblige the Souldra to spread out their soul shield blocks, the EH would be a very useful weapon for the Tholians against those later enemies. But whether or not the "western" Tholians would be in a hurry to adopt a weapon so close in concept to that which their old Seltorian nemeses turned so fatally against them during the Revolt is another matter - as is the question of whether the Tholians might prefer a weapon more oriented towards scoring internal damage.

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Particle Beam

The primary heavy weapon of the Vari Combine, and of a number of "heterodox" Hives. Zosman Marauder cells in Vari space, or in the territory of said "heterodox" Hives, frequently use this weapon.

This weapon is almost, but not quite, the same as a particle cannon. On the one hand, the individual shots are weaker than those of a PC. But on the other hand, both shots in a single turn can be overloaded.

On a side note, I recall someone suggesting somewhere on the BBS that it might be possible to adjust the rules covering the use of particle beams on fighters, in order to account for any Tholian (or Seltorian) fighters in Omega to be armed with particle cannons. So even if this weapon is not used in and of itself, it might be a helpful point of comparison here nonetheless...

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Sting Torpedo

The primary heavy weapon of the "orthodox" Hivers. Zosman Marauder cells in "orthodox" Hiver space frequently use this weapon.

Designed as a hybrid between a tachyon gun and a particle beam, the sting torpedo fires every turn. It has both an overload and a double overload function; regular overloads have a maximum range of eight, whereas double overloads reduce the range to four hexes.

As is the case for tachyon guns on ships with enough batteries to spare, a ship can "top up" a standard or overloaded sting torpedo with reserve power to produce a double overload - or not, if the opposing ship manages to keep its distance...

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There are plenty of other direct-fire heavy weapons in Omega, but these are the ones I consider to be more likely for an empire set along the Galactic Rim (such as the would-be "Omega-Holdfast") to gain access to.

By Mike Kenyon (Scottishenginee) on Thursday, July 20, 2023 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Thoughts on above:

* Bases: are the bases we see in the Alpha Quadrant the original M81 bases from the databanks or are these more heavily influenced by the alpha bases which they highly resemble? If they are alpha-based, then the "original" Tholian bases might be more in line with what the Omega quadrant put out as they don't need to be as tough given that you have web.

* Target Illuminators: For the ships that later get a Web Caster refit, you could put the TI in place of where the web caster would (later) go as it was I think always an added box. Putting the WC refit in now has some negative side-effect in that you lose your TI and makes for more interesting battles.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 21, 2023 - 02:20 pm: Edit

The Tholian (and, for that matter, Seltorian) bases in the home galaxy use the same SSD templates as Alpha Octant starbases - unlike the case, for, say, the various bases we see from the Lesser Magellanic Cloud empires over in SFB Module C5.

In the case of the Tholians, the main difference in terms of weaponry is that the M81 starbases in Module C3 have particle cannons and web casters installed in the six outer modules; Holdfast starbases in Module R1 start with web generators and phaser-4s instead, though the latter weapons are swapped out for web casters starting in Y184.

That said, as shown on Shapeways, even Alpha Octant bases can look quite different from one another "in-universe", despite using the same SSD template in game terms. So it is not impossible for the Holdfast to have ended up with very different-looking bases to the ones they have records of from the home galaxy, despite them ending up being (more or less) functionally equivalent.

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That said, there is a "game design" aspect to this question.

If, on the one hand, the home galaxy Tholian bases are (externally) identical to their Holdfast counterparts, and the delay in (re-)building them was a matter of logistics - as in, the Holdfast Tholians had to spend the intervening decades building Klingon-type Early Years bases in order to build up the resources, knowledge, and practical experience needed to build their "original" bases again - then it's more likely that a would-be "Omega-Holdfast" would be in the same position. In other words, one might need to draw up SSDs to represent "intermediate" Omega-Tholian bases - such as the ones based on packs or pods I suggested earlier - but the "full" bases can more or less use the same SSDs we already see in print.

However, if what happened was that the Holdfast, in the process of building and operating Klingon-type Early Years bases, ended up along the path of building Klingon-type "modern" bases - and that it was only a coincidence that these "modern" bases are functionally equivalent to the ones in the databanks from the old galaxy - then it would be necessary to draw up an entirely new range of Omega-Tholian bases, to account for whatever templates the Tholians encounter in this Galactic octant.

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But there are a few problems with this latter version of events.

For one thing, we still don't yet have the SSDs in print for most Omega bases to work off of - unlike the case with the LMC bases noted above.

(On a side note: If one were to set up a "Tholians arrive in the LMC" scenario, I suppose one could reverse-engineer some of the local base SSDs, in order to give a would-be "LMC-Holdfast" something to work with.)

For another thing, what little we know about Omega bases is that they are intended to vary widely from one empire to the next: Drex and Koligahr bases in particular are reportedly heavily armed, whereas many other empires' bases are weaker by comparison, as they are seen more as logistical nodes than as fortified strongholds.

Indeed, in most cases we still don't have the weapon damage tables for Omega Octant phaser-4s. The Federal Republic has "standard" phaser-4s, while the Qixa have a chart for the mega gauss cannon (their phaser-4 equivalent). But we don't yet know what the charts for the likes of the wide-angle phaser-4 or microphaser-4 look like - though they are noted as existing in the 2011 Omega Master Rulebook.

So we'd need to see what certain large Omega bases - and the phaser-4-equivalents to be installed on them - look like, and then decide which (if any) of those would be viable templates for the Tholians in Omega to use, before drawing up Omega-Tholian versions of the bases so chosen.

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As for the target illuminator: it's noted that the reason why it only works for the Iridani is due to it being tied in to their unique fire control system; for this reason, other empires (to include the Zosman Marauders) failed to reverse-engineer this technology.

I would argue that this should remain true even for the Tholians - so if they do gain access to the FEB, they (like the Zosmans) would have to make do with the weapon as-is.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, July 21, 2023 - 11:49 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Holdfast starbases in Module R1 start with web generators and phaser-4s instead, though the latter weapons are swapped out for web casters starting in Y184.

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 03:51 pm: Edit

In strictly SFB terms, bases do not count towards the number of web casters in a given fleet under (E12.16). Although in F&E terms, there is a limit as to how many ships can be built as (or converted into) web caster variants under (525.73); I might need to double-check if a "base" counts as a "ship" for the purposes of this limit.

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I was under the impression that perhaps home galaxy starbases did not have the standard set of web anchors (kept at strength zero) deployed around them the way that Holdfast starbases do - in which case, the M81 starbase's web casters could be used to throw up an ad hoc layered web defence as and when required.

But no, the (SH110.0) scenario in Module C3 has the NSB surrounded by an asteroid-anchored "wedding cake".

But even if the web caster refit was of no use in establishing the base's initial fortifications (in either galaxy), it might still provide a backstop in the event that a Seltorian force were to break through the set layers of web. Whether it's to use the web fist mode to fire at any Seltorian ships attempting to close to transporter range, or perhaps to cast free-standing web (or to re-establish the innermost layer of normal web) should the Seltorians get too close.

Although, if keeping the phaser-4s meant that the Seltorian ships didn't get so close to begin with, well...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Gary,

I'm afraid I don't buy that. Since web casters can't fire through web, they would be no help at all in supporting the outermost web ring against Seltorian web breakers, since their fire would be blocked by the inner web rings. And even if there were no intervening webs, casters cannot be used to strengthen already existing webs (unless the webs are adjacent, in which case they could function as a standard web generator, but not better than that). But more phaser-4s would at least increase the damage those Seltorian ships take, depending on how far they are from the web rings.

Now if the star base had no webs at all, the wen breakers would be of some use. But... why would the base have no web?

Also, if the base had no web and the Seltorians were firing on it from 30 hexes away (max range for a particle cannon), web breakers used as fists do more damagfe per turn than phaser-4s do. But why would the Seltorians try to bombard the base from 30 hexes? It's a terrible range for PCs. They would move in to closer, more effective ranges (at which phaser-4s are superior to web fists).

If you're going top convince me that web casters in lieu of more phasers make sense for Tholian bases, you're going to have to do netter than that...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 10:38 pm: Edit

As it happens, the NSB has web casters, but no web generators. Although, if we assume that the home galaxy Tholians had no supply issues to worry about in terms of web caster production, they might have felt it worth installing the WCs instead of web generators "just in case". Or, perhaps, because they could.

In Omega, the Tholians would (if they survive long enough) have to worry about both the Andromedans and the Souldra. The Andro threat would be familiar to the Holdfast in the Alpha Octant, but with the Souldra the key thing is to keep the Black (vampire) Shards at bay - not least if the Souldra use the dimensional phase device to bypass the outer layers of web. Although, one way to get rid of Shards is to destroy the ship they are linked to, which might be a reason for the Souldra not to be in a hurry to get too close to a heavily-armed Tholian base in the first instance, but how and ever....

But, even in the Alpha Octant it's noted that the web caster refit was not universal, at least not on battle stations. So if the would-be "Omega-Holdfast" were to be given the capacity to build M81-esque bases, and if they decided that it was best to keep the phaser-4s on such bases as phaser-4s, well and good...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 12, 2023 - 02:51 pm: Edit

In light of the point of discussion considering the neutron beam versus the charged particle accelerator over in the "Tholians in the LMC" thread, I was thinking a bit more about how likely a given direct-fire heavy weapon might be for a given "Tholians in Omega" contingency - and what each might mean for their actual use tactically.

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For the "western" contingency, I'd suggest sticking with the tachyon gun, which they can adopt once the Mæsrons show up in the region.

For one thing, it's shown on various Mæsron SSDs as having flexible firing arc options; for example the prow TG on the Mæsron light cruiser has an FX firing arc. So there shouldn't be any trouble swapping out the particle cannons or disruptors on a given Tholian SSD and retaining the arcs already in place.

For another thing, the TG is an accurate, flexible, and (at the higher arming levels) powerful weapon. Which is useful for Tholian ships fighting in open space, and for those nestled in layers of web when defending a base.

Indeed, singe the tachyon gun's higher arming levels are comparable to an overloaded photon torpedo in terms of damage output, and (unlike a photon) can be armed from any source, I'd wonder if the Tholians in this instance would even need a "backup" heavy weapon type - or, indeed, any AWR-equipped hull variants - if choosing to adopt the tachyon gun in the first instance...

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In the "eastern" contingency, there would be more options in principle, but perhaps only a handful of likely options in practice.

Since the Tholians would be in an uncontested region of space for an extended period of time, the question would be whether or not they would be in a position to reverse-engineer the samples of particle cannon technology they had to hand - even if the data banks on the Sphere were to remain encrypted until the arrival of the 312th.

If they can, then the case can be made for letting them use particle cannons as their standard heavy weapons. In which case, I would argue that the Zosman Marauders - who are themselves extra-galactic in origin, and who already make use of the similar Vari particle beam - should not have any problems salvaging this weapon for their own use.

But, if it turned out that it was impossible to reverse-engineer particle cannon technology even without the pressures of intense combat to get in the way, then the Tholians would have to look for other options - in which case I would consider the Iridani-sourced focused energy beam (without the use of the target illuminator, as noted above) as the most viable option. The Zosmans can use the FEB already, so this would simply add the "eastern" contingency Tholians as an additional source for this technology.

But in both cases; perhaps they might see the tachyon gun as a viable "backup" option later on, akin to the use of photon torpedo variants for the historical Holdfast in Alpha.

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In the case of the focused energy beam: perhaps the Tholians, if they were to encounter a supply dock somewhere along the Galactic Rim (yet outside of their claimed area of space), perhaps they might demand the transfer of FEB technology as part of the "Danegeld" required to be paid by the Iridani in order to keep this route into and out of the galaxy operational.

As for the tachyon gun: if one were to posit that another part of the "Danegeld" extracted from the Iridani was a regular series of updates on events elsewhere in Omega, and if such intelligence was corroborated by later encounters (cordial or otherwise) with the Bolosco or Zosmans, the Tholians in this instance might request/demand samples of tachyon gun technology for use in circumstances where the particle cannon or focused energy beam might fall short.

Indeed, once the Mæsrons devise a means to bypass the Zosman Stealth field in Y141 (at least until the Zosmans respond with a new iteration of Stealth field technology in Y148), any Zosmans ships or Syndicate bases captured or salvaged in or around Omega-Holdfast space could perhaps have samples of this technology aboard.

Note that the Zosman forces in the "off-map" Phi Sector use Mæsron-sourced weapons as standard, so they wold be able to ship spare parts and components to any Marauder cells in Mæsron-held territory. Or for that matter, in the territory of whichever "heterodox" Hives were to make use of tachyon guns as their direct-fire heavy weapons of choice. So, if a Fence cruiser heading to or from Mæsron (or the appropriate "heterodox" Hiver) space was to be caught (literally and figuratively) in the Tholians' web, perhaps this might give the latter a head-start in terms of reverse-engineering this useful weapon for their own use...

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So, in summary:

I'd suggest the "western" contingency Tholians adopting - and sticking with - the tachyon gun exclusively, with no "backup" weapon.

While I'd further suggest that the "eastern" Tholians would:
a) reverse-engineer the particle cannon (if they can do this),
or
b) adopt the focused energy beam (if they can't),
and, in either case,
c) acquire the tachyon gun as a "backup" weapon later in the timeline.

Of course, if you think there is a better set of options out there, by all means post them!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, August 13, 2023 - 10:42 pm: Edit

For the "western" contingency, there is an notable interaction between the Chlorophon subspace coagulator and the web caster: if free-standing web is cast into coagulated hexes, not only does the cast web solidify immediately (skipping the usual four-impulse delay), the combination persists for the longer of the two durations left remaining.

So if the Tholians and Chlorophons were fighting as allies - say, against the Andromedans and the Souldra - they'd be able to combine the effects of both weapons in a uniquely interesting manner.

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Also, in terms of who (if anyone) in the "western" contingency would be minded to host a Seltorian Tribunal expedition against the Tholians, consider this:

Both the Koligahr and the Probr were uplifted to sapience by other species. However, the two outcomes could not have been more different. The surviving Ka-ma-ty-u, a bear-like species whose last remnants now live on the Koligahr homeworld, are greatly revered by their current hosts. Whereas the Probr launched a ferocious Revolution which destroyed all traces of their creators, to the point that they are now known only as THEM.

If the Seltorians were to convince the Probr in particular that the Tholians are to the former what THEM were to the latter, might that make it more likely that the Probr would agree to host the Torch expedition?

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Perhaps this might depend on how wary the Probr were of the Tholians even prior to the Seltorian arrival. Not least if there was any hint that the Tholians would align themselves with the silicate Trobrin Empire against all "carbonite" life forms.

Which, ironically, would put the Seltorians on the side of the "Alliance" in the Second Great War, as opposed to their aligning with the Coalition during the General War over in the Alpha Octant.

That said, since HEATs interact quite poorly with web, and since the Probr have "enemies enough" on other fronts to fight during the Y180s (plus a weak economy by Omega standards with which to support those fronts), it is possible that they might be less likely to take part in joint operations against the Tholians, the way that the Klingons did with the Seltorians historically. In other words, they might in essence "outsource" the Tholian front to the Seltorians - at least until, or unless, the Supreme Council came to view the Seltorians themselves as the greater long-term threat.

By which time, might the onset of the Andromedan and Souldra invasions oblige the Probr to cut the Seltorians loose, or would they instead push both species to rally together for the sake of mutual survival?

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In game terms, if the Probr were to host the Tribunal, this might involve Seltorian carriers flying imported Probr fighter designs, flown by Probr "mercenary" pilots - with the quantum phaser-3s swapped out for phaser-3s, and perhaps with the HEATs swapped out for particle cannons.

Note that any Seltorian escort ships supporting said carriers would have no Aegis prior to Y194, and only limited Aegis thereafter; no Omega empire presently has access to "full" Aegis fire control.

By Mike Kenyon (Scottishenginee) on Tuesday, August 15, 2023 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Somewhere IIRC it states that the web is based off of tractor technology (which makes sense). Based off of that, what do you think of them building off of the rubble of the Bolosco?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 16, 2023 - 04:19 pm: Edit

It's noted in the OR-section for the Bolosco that those of that species which arrived in Omega were "a splinter group" which split from the other Bolosco exiles from M81.

With that in mind, I am hopeful that there are remain other groups of Bolosco out there in the broader universe, which are alive and well. And which, in game terms, could perhaps be added to other SFU settings in the future - or even for a fresh wave of arrivals to show up in Omega someday, perhaps - should there be room for them at the inn, so to speak.

On a side note: according to an answer given in an issue of Captain's Log - I forget right now which one - the old galaxy Tholians and Bolosco never met; the latter had already fled the home galaxy before the former expanded into their former region of space.

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However, as for the Bolosco we know about in Omega at present, their former home territory at the Void-ward side of the Trobrin-Probr border is occupied by the Loriyill Splinter Collective in the post-Invasions era.

Beyond this, there are various independent trading ships to be found here and there, some of which making routine visits to the open port declared at the Qixa home world from Y211 onwards. However, the largest group of Bolosco survivors are to be found in Mæsron space, where they have become part of the New Alliance.

Now, it's noted that while the Mæsrons developed the light and heavy tugs previewed in Captain's Log #21, they did not revisit the topic of tugs until after the Invasions. So, while I would not take this to mean that the Mæsrons would in any way be able to incorporate restricted Bolosco technology, I do think it would be interesting to see a "post-Invasions" set of Mæsron military transports at least inspired by the doctrines used by the Bolosco for their own "home-built" ship designs.

It is true that the Tholian web, the Andromedan tractor-repulsor beam, and the various Bolosco tractor technologies are each derived in some way from a common source. But I would much prefer that each bespoke development of tractor technology remain unique to their respective empire.

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Trade-wise, I could see the Tholians keeping the Bolosco out of their claimed territory, but still using them as a valuable source of information - perhaps by establishing a "neutral" point of contact somewhere beyond the Holdfast's borders.

In light of the collapse of the Bolosco trading network, it would appear that the Qixa are aiming to take up the mantle of cross-border trade - and facing the increased threat of Zosman Marauder rads as a result. So, if one assumes the Holdfast survives the Andromedan and Souldra invasions themselves, perhaps any prior agreements with the Bolosco could be transferred to whatever the Qixa manage to offer as an alternative.

And at least the Qixa might feel more comfortable dealing with the Tholians than with mot other species, since the latter are naturally immune to Sigvirion infection...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, August 22, 2023 - 04:43 pm: Edit

In terms of attrition units, there are certain local conditions which both the Tholians and the Seltorians would have to consider, that set things apart from how both sides adopted such technologies in the historical Alpha Octant.

On the one hand, size-1 fighters show up much earlier than in Alpha; each empire goes its own way in terms of things like squadron sizes, the composition of their respective squadrons, and so on and so forth. On the other hand, size-2 fighters show up much later; warp booster packs do not appear until the era of the Andromedan and Souldra invasions; EW fighters do not enter broad deployment until Y197; while megapacks do not exist in Omega.

As for Interceptors and fast patrol ships, these use the "volatile warp" engines featured in Module Omega #5 and in the 2011 Omega Master Rulebook. These operate quite differently to the "hot warp" INTs and PFs which exist over in Alpha - not least in how many Omega gunboats appear in a given empire's flotilla.

So, how might all of this affect the Tholians and Seltorians?

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Firstly, fighters.

It's likely that the Spider-I fighter would show up not long after the Tholians - in either the "eastern" or "western" contingencies - encounter comparable attack shuttles used by other empires.

Of course, by "comparable", I mean the kind of "standard" fighters used by empires like the Mæsrons or Iridani, as opposed to more "exotic" attrition units such as Hiver Barbs, Alunda Remoras, or Branthodon Wyverns.

I'd assume the Omega-Tholians would be able to develop the web spinner without any problems.

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As for the emergence of Spider-II and Spider-III equivalents: this might depend on the specific type of heavy weapon to be equipped on the former in particular.

There are rules in print covering how fighter-armed tachyon guns, particle beams, and focused energy beams are armed and fired. (On "regular" fighters, that is; we don't yet have specific rules on how Hiver Barbs in "heterodox" Hives arm and fire their TGs and/or PBs.)

Tachyon guns on size-1 fighters arm somewhat similarly to photon fighters: they can be armed with one or two points of power per turn over two turns, for a maximum four-point charge. There are rules providing for "larger and more advanced" fighters to arm their TGs with up to three points of power per turn (for six points overall), though none of those fighters have been committed to print as of yet.

Particle beams on fighters arm similarly to disruptor fighters: on the current range of PB-armed fighters, each weapon mount has a two-point capacitor (enough for two "standard-load" shots), though they can only fire one of these shots in a single turn. There are rules leaving the door ajar for fighters to have larger capacitors, and/or perhaps the ability to fire more than one shot in a single turn; however, no fighters with such capabilities have been drawn up as of yet.

Focused energy beams on fighters do not have their own capacitors; instead, a special double-sized pod was used, starting from Y176 onwards. In the case of the Iridani, the size-1 Skiff-F and Skiff-FA each have only two pod rails, so can only carry one FEB pod apiece; the size-2 Skiff-H has six pod rails, though historically it mostly uses only four of these rails in order to carry two FEB pods.

For contingencies where the Tholians adopt the tachyon gun, a TG-armed Spider-II (or "Spider-IIT"?) would be simple enough to adopt.

If one were to make fighter-mounted particle cannons use similar rules to the particle beam, one might need to give them a three-point capacitor; room enough for the first (2-point) shot, plus the second (1-point) shot. However, as is the case for the Vari PB-armed fighters currently in print, they might be limited to firing only one of these shots in a single turn.

Which, for the Tholians, might be a problem. Whereas the Vari design their particle beam-armed fighters to have two PB mounts per fighter, a Spider-II variant (or "Spider-IIP") might only be able to swap out a disruptor for a single particle cannon mount. But then, Vari size-1 fighters typically have a 2:1 ratio of phaser fighters versus PB fighters; so if one compares a 12-strong squadron of Vari fighters to, say, a squadron of 6 Spider-IIPs and six Spider-IIIs, the proportional reduction in heavy weapon firepower doesn't seem so bad.

As for the focused energy beam, the Tholians would have to wait until Y176 to deploy a would-be "Spider-IIF" - and use up both of the fighter's pod rails to carry the pod. They might have the Spider-III in service sooner than that, however - or even deploy the Spider-IIP as an interim measure, perhaps in response to encountering the Iridani Skiff-2.

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As for size-2 fighters, one could assume that Omega equivalents of the Spider-IV and Spider-IVS would appear. Indeed, perhaps a would-be "Spider-IVT" might have the larger six-point capacitors for its tachyon guns? However, of those size-2 Omega fighters currently in print, none have EW pods as standard, so I doubt the Tholians would get them as standard issue here either. (In any case, a would-be "Spider-IVF" would need those pod rails to install FEB pods.)

Also, most Omega empires do not use chaff; it is a system which is of limited use in this part of the galaxy. So I would say that Tholian fighters here would not have the same chaff packs as standard as their Alpha counterparts do historically.

I'm not entirely sure if, or if so when, any Omega equivalents to the Spider-V and its variants would show up, however.

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And as for the Seltorians: presumably whichever arming rules were implemented for particle-cannon-armed Tholian fighters would also apply to any "imported" fighters adopted to particle cannon technology for use by the Seltorians. (I certainly do not want to see Omega-Seltorians use any kind of seeking of weapon-armed fighters...)

For example: if the Probr were to be the ones to host the Seltorians, any imported Feldspar torpedo fighters would have room for only one particle cannon per frame. But on the other hand, the varieties of Beryl phaser fighters in service by the early-to-mid-Y180s have three quantum phaser-3s apiece; swapping those out for "standard" phaser-3s still makes for a useful superiority fighter by Omega standards. (Note that even the Probr tend to only fly phaser fighters from their carriers; squadrons attached to Probr ground bases have a 2:1 ratio of phaser fighters versus HEAT-armed fighters.)

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Should the Tholians and/or Seltorians survive long enough to acquire samples of "volatile warp" gunboat technology, it's quite possible that each side might skip Interceptors entirely - as most Omega empires themselves jumped directly to PFs.

As to what these PFs would look like: one could approximate this by treating the warp booster pack boxes on the current flotilla SSDs as additional warp engine boxes, and installing the various shield refits as standard.

While the Seltorian PF would be armed as normal, the Tholian PF might appear in tachyon gun, particle cannon, or focused energy beam varieties.

In both cases, scout and survey PFs would not show up until the Y210s, in keeping with the equivalent delays for these mission variants in other Omega empires.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Monday, August 28, 2023 - 11:08 am: Edit

Hey Gary;

Have you thought about the idea of the Tholians ending up in the Jindarian Freehold, and actually forming an alliance initially for mutual protection. Since neither race would actually be in conflict over territory. The combination of Tholian webs and Jindarian asteroid ships.
Then if they became militaristically aggresive, the Jindarians could create mobile asteriod drones that could approach a planet or base then stop and become web anchors for the Tholians to create a wall to approach the targets while under cover.

Think of the posibilites :D

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, September 04, 2023 - 12:13 pm: Edit

My assumption would be that, were the Holdfast Sphere to crash through the Barrier into the Omega Octant instead of into the Alpha Octant, its engines would suffer the same catastrophic meltdown as they did historically - stranding the Sphere in whichever arrival hex one was to assign to it along the Galactic Rim.

While the Freehold is "only" about four thousand parsecs from the nearest point along the Galactic Rim, that might yet be far enough to keep the Tholians at somewhat of a distance - so long as the Sphere remains active, at least.

That said, Bruce Graw did suggest in his Captain's Log #36 article on "Omega's Lost Futures" that he pictured the Freehold as housing a number of remnants of destroyed Omega factions - survivors of a fallen Hive, a defeated Vari cell, and so on and so forth.

So, if the Tholians were to lose the Sphere later in the timeline, with no hope of recovery (say, if the Souldra were to drain it of all life), and/or if the Seltorians were to lose their Hive Ship to enemy action, I could see remnant Tholian and/or Seltorian ships fleeing to the Freehold for sanctuary. Not sure if the Freehold would accept any "Sig-torians", though.

That said, if the Andromedans were to be the ones to capture the Sphere rather than the Souldra, I would sooner see any escaping Tholian ships seeking to regroup and to eventually retake the Sphere once the Andro invasion collapses. Since, unlike the Souldra, the Andros would want to keep enough of the populace alive to be able to exact tribute from them.

Actually, it would be an ironic twist if the Andros were to conquer the Sphere first, only to be obliged to defend it against a later attack by the Souldra...

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, September 05, 2023 - 09:42 am: Edit

I'm not sure the Andromedans wanted to keep any Galactics alive, IIRC they seemed to be bent on total extermination and worked any enslaved Galactics to death. I don't think the Galactic Powers ever understood what the Andros wanted or why they came, but they certainly seemed utterly xenophobic.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, September 10, 2023 - 02:11 pm: Edit

It is true that they took particular exception to the Uthiki out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, in terms of purposely targeting them for extermination.

And it is also true that, after decades of occupation, the liberated worlds of the LMC were left in very bad shape - not least for the various Eneen subject species, most of whom were on the brink of extinction by the time of Operation Unity.

Yet even so, it is noted that the Andromedans were not averse to "managing" their subject populations cross different locations. For example: I recall a note somewhere stating that in some cases, food stock harvested via Andro small ground agro stations would be deposited on work sites supervised by Andro robot overseers. (I don't recall exactly where this might have been noted, however.)

Plus, there are instances of the Andromedans fighting the Souldra during the Sixth Cycle: not least when a Souldra force attacked an Andro-occupied world in Worb space, triggering a series of reprisals which bought the Worb time to avoid being fully overwhelmed by the Souldra onslaught.

So while no-one should be under any illusions as to how grim the prospect of Andromedan occupation can be, one might still consider this the second-worst option - when compared to what a Souldra conquest of one's home planet (or, in this case, home Sphere) entails.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 05:19 pm: Edit

It might be worth unpacking the tactical implications of Tholian and Seltorian "volatile warp" gunboats in a bit more detail.

"Volatile warp" PFs have an afterburner function, which works sort of like Orion engine doubling. Only in this case, the boost is 50% (rounding down) rather than 100%, and must "cool down" after each turn of use. Reserve warp power cannot be used while the afterburners are on, though reserve impulse power can be used normally.

Further, for the PFs in Module Omega #5, the use of afterburners is affected by the placing of the warp engines aboard the gunboat in question. For example, the Mæsron PF has two six-box "volatile warp" engines; if undamaged, running the afterburners produces eighteen points of warp engine power. However, the Trobrin PF has two four-box "volatile warp" engines to port and starboard, plus a pair of two-box centre warp engines; running its afterburners "only" produces a maximum of fifteen points of warp engine power.

If one were to replace each of the three-box "hot warp" engines (plus attached three-box warp booster packs) on each Tholian or Seltorian PF with six-box "volatile warp" engines apiece, they'd have the most efficient afterburner output, same as the Mæsrons.

The question then would be how to use them.

"Volatile warp" engines take double the normal amount of damage ordinarily, and triple damage if hit while running the afterburners. Further, Omega PFs cannot repair these engines by themselves - which can be a problem if no repair-capable PF tender is nearby.

Further, if the Tholians in particular were to adopt a weapon which takes two turns to arm, such as the tachyon gun, would it be better to use the afterburners on either arming turn, or perhaps to alternate shots from each TG from one turn to the next?

All told, were the would-be Tholians and/or Seltorians in Omega to survive long enough to deploy "volatile warp" gunboats, they'd have much to consider in terms of how to use them against one another - or, for that matter, against PFs deployed by other Omega Octant empires.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, November 06, 2023 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Recently, I've been wondering if, beyond the "threat file" alternates speculated on above, there might be an opportunity to offer a Seltorian (and/or "Sig-torian") presence - even a temporary one - in the historical Omega Octant timeline.

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For example: say, if a Nest Ship were to show up in Omega in or around Y182 - so roughly in parallel to the arrival of the historical Torch expedition in the Alpha Octant.

Once they cross the Galactic Barrier, there would be the issue of what they would do once they learn that there are no Tholians in this part of the galaxy. Or, indeed, if they were to learn that there was an active Holdfast over in Alpha - either via data on the Alpha Octant disseminated by the Federal Republic of Aurora to other Omega empires, or perhaps by a transmission sent from M81 in the wake of the Torch's encountering the Holdfast more directly.

Given that knowledge, an uninfected Sage in command of the Nest Ship might order his force to cross back through the Barrier and head over to Alpha - which, of course, would not align with what we know about the historical Tribunal campaign.

However, if the Nest Ship was to be infected and taken over by the Sigvirions upon arrival in Omega, they would not care about attacking the Holdfast, regardless of if or when they'd learn of its existence. Instead, they'd be more interested in leveraging this new source of host bodies and extra-galactic technology in order to build a "Sig-torian" empire.

At least, until the Andromedans and Souldra show up to spoil the party...

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As noted above, there is plenty of unclaimed space along the Galactic Rim, even as late as Y183. So there is enough room for a "Sig-torian" presence to exist, at least until the Invasions kick off in earnest.

In that time, there would be scope for the "Sig-torians" to encounter a number of potential opponents: the Iridani, the Bolosco, the Zosmans, and perhaps also the Chlorophons. As well as any Souldra or Andromedan raiding forces in the area, who each might test "Sig-torian" defences prior to launching a full-scale attack on the Nest Ship itself.

And as also suggested above, even if/when the Nest Ship is destroyed, there's the potential for the surviving "Sig-torians" to flee to the Jindarian Freehold, in order to seek sanctuary. (Whether they would be made welcome is another matter, depending on the risk of infection to the Jindarians themselves...)

Thus, by the time this region of space is claimed by the Koligahr, Vulpa, and Echarri near the tail end of the Seventh Cycle, the "Sig-torians" would be out of the picture as an independent power. Unless they try to launch a new wave of infection in the region at that point in time?

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So, is the Omega map and timeline flexible enough to allow for an historical Seltorian - or rather, "Sig-torian" - presence to be made real?

And, if so, would having this presence be "Sig-torian", rather than uninfected Seltorian, be enough to help make it "something different" from the historical Torch expedition in the Alpha Octant?