Considering that Federation gunboats are now historical, and there were a very small handful of Thunderbolts that were made and slightly used (though never formally adopted by Star Fleet), I now ask that one variant be more widespread: the workboat.

Someone spent a lot of money and production time and equipment to try to sell Thunderbolts to the Federation. Obviously that failed, but they had this large setup that now was about to be completely wasted. Seeing that workboats were still very useful and were better than skiffs, why not start making those workboats? This lets them get some return out of their investments and gives the Federation a native, internal source for workboats.

Now, with just a single facility producing these, they would not simply take over the Federation workboat market. The Orions are making their own workboats, and other empires likely have much larger production (especially the allied Kzinti and Gorns). But, I would still expect to see a significant number of Thunderbolt based workboats now that there is an actual production facility that can produce them.

So ... can the Federation workboat be a "real" and relatively common unit, given the retcon to the Thunderbolt history?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 04:14 pm: Edit

I imagine that they would not have needed a huge facility to produce a few prototypes... there's a difference between "hand-made" prototypes and an actual mass production facility. The manufacturers would not have invested in a mass production facility precisely because they could not be certain that the Thunderbolt would be adopted.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I hadn't heard that thunderbolt prototypes were now canon to have existed. If they are canon, I can see wanting a thunderbolt workboat, because the urge to create a Federation workboat is strong with me.

The Feds have a very large economy, they built very good small-craft, and everyone else is building these very nice little workboats. Are the Feds buying all of theirs from the Kzinti and Gorn or something?!

If FEELS like the Feds should have a workboat. My own headcanon is that Orion Buckaneers were mass produced, so they had the production lines, and once Orion province was back in the Federation their "legitimate" production facilities on Orion itself could no longer sell (directly) to pirates. So they'd have swapped to Buckaneer based workboats on a large scale (even prior to anyone else producing a workboat), with new construction having no stealth systems and no engine doubling and more durability than a normal PF, and that this filled the Federation workboat need.

Hence no other Federation workboat design, but this runs into the problem that I seem to remember SPP saying it never happened.

Doesn't really stop my, I can imagine whatever I want, and I really want a Federation workboat, because the lack of one makes no sense to me.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 04:59 pm: Edit

There were a very few dozen built. No, it does not take a full major production system. Sure. But, ...

Any company building these would have a full major production systems. Who knows what they are building now, but they are hoping to get a lucrative new business set up with the Thunderbolts. I see two paths that can lead to them building workboats.

1) These really were outstanding weapons platforms. They thought this was a sure sale. Because of this, they started retooling and setting up for full production preemptively. When the Federation declined to build them, they were left scrambling. They then redesigned the Thunderbolt into the workboat, knowing that it was superior to the skiff designs.

2) They did not act preemptively, but were still dumbfounded when the Federation rejected the gunboat. Not wanting that research and effort to go to waste, they realized that the design could be simply modified into a much cheaper civilian design and stomp all over the skiff market. They redesigned, retooled, and sold the workboats.

The point is that the workboat is not just a modification of a nebulous design floating in someone's computer. It was a hard, physical, tangible system that proved out how functional it was. With those working designs, creating the workboat would be incredibly straight-forward and take a fraction of the time that a fresh design would have required. They had actual working examples to quickly figure it out with. The existing market is dominated with inferior skiffs. This is a virtually guaranteed win staring them in the face. They don't have to guess that the design will work. They *know* it works! And it will stomp the competition in the market.

The only other native solution is the Orion workboat, which I imagine many, many governments would not want to work with. Why am I running around in the same type of ships that are bleeding me dry? Why am I paying them so they can turn around and rob me? Why do that? Having a native design that isn't made by the Orions would absolutely have a great market. Plus, at the beginning, it is still wartime, so the Orions are too busy building real Buccaneers to bother with workboats.

The best part? Initially they would have little competition. Everyone else (including the Orions) are way too busy churning out combat gunboats to worry about workboats. Eventually, the Orions, Kzinti, and Gorns would join in the market. The Federation workboat would not be nearly as ubiquitous in the Federation as any other empire's workboat would be within their own empire. There would still be tons of Orion, Gorn, Kzinti workboats, along with a noticeable number of Klingon and Romulan worksboats. But it would still get very good market penetration and there would be a lot of them out there.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Real world examples define that they would not have built "major production facilities" without a contract for thousands of gunboats. The two or three dozen built for tests were relegated to backwoods areas and probably worn out by war’s end. Most postwar workboats were demilitarized gunboats. I don’t see any significant production of new Federation gunboat hulls (in workboat form) happening. It would be too expensive to restart production post war for a theoretical workboat market when the Kzintis and Gorns dump a thousand gunboats onto the Fed market for scrap metal prices.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 10:14 pm: Edit

I forget, has a “typical” Federation work boat type Kzinti or Gorn base hull been published?

Skiffs have (by the end of the General War) been around for decades. At a guess, there may be more skiffs operating in the Federation than in any or Major or Minor Empire (comparatively.)

Petrick has, from time to time posted about the pros and cons of skiffs verses workboats.

Generally, both types have a set of advantages and disadvantages.

Heck, it just may be that war surplus Kzinti or Gorn PF’s (scrap value) might be significantly cheaper to buy in the Federation than a brand new recent production Skiff fresh off the factory line.

I can just imagine the complaints of the unions, factory managers and corporate owners (share holders) that the Kzinti’s and Gorn’s respective governments “Dumping” their war surplus PFs to undermine Federation Skiff production.

In a different time and place, that could cause a war.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 02:33 am: Edit

I would think that the Fed version of a Kzinti workboat looks just like a Kzinti workboat.

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 05:12 am: Edit

The nice thing about Federation Members buying Gorn and Kzinti Workboats. Plenty of head room.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 07:39 am: Edit

Big chairs, lots of room to stretch out.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 11:53 am: Edit

If we were sitting around with brewskis, I'd have fun throwing a little kerosene on the fire.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember which issue, but IIRC, in one Captain's Log, there was a "History of the General War" from the Kzinti viewpoint that was VERY anti-Federation.

How strong (or even did it exist) was the political movement within the Hegemony that promoted that view?

Were there folks in the Federation who viewed that movement as something more than it was?

What might be the snowball out of that? Would there be some folks who would start spreading rumors that the Federation Police would be FAR more "Interested" in operators of Kzinti made workboats?

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, September 18, 2023 - 08:49 am: Edit

Gorn and Kzinti workboats also have BIG meat lockers aboard.

By Jack Bohn (Jackbohn) on Monday, September 18, 2023 - 09:10 am: Edit

There's a Canadian company called Edison Motors that's making ...well, currently, YouTube videos, but are working up to convert heavy tractor-trailer trucks to diesel/electric. Working with packaged components rather than doing their own from scratch -the SFU equivalent might be wholesale warp nacelles- how many of the boats in the galaxy might be from small shops rather than big shipyards?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 18, 2023 - 10:00 am: Edit

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Quote:

... how many of the boats in the galaxy might be from small shops rather than big shipyards?

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By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, September 22, 2023 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Towing companies would love these small shop component built ships for the increased revenue stream...local law enforcement and first responders do not (higher call-up volumes).

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 23, 2023 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Lar, I would bet not. A Lyran PF engine might not have the same warp dynamics as a Kzinti one. Their wiring runs might use a completely different design philosophy, how stuff is controlled (central vs distributed computing for example)...

For example, "The primary power distribution voltage, phase, and frequency used on U.S. Navy ships is 450 volts (V), three-phase, 60 hertz (Hz)... Most ships also have 450V and 120V,
400-Hz power systems for supplying weapons systems and electronic equipment," While some "carriers have 4160V, three-phase, 60 Hz generators..." https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/ch320.pdf

What are the chances that Russia is the same? https://www.ripublication.com/gjpam16/gjpamv12n1_51.pdf

I was the EHS guy when the Aegis Ashore site in Romania was put into service and repairing Roosevelt Roads post hurricane... There are all kinds of funky stuff in Naval Applications.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 12:00 pm: Edit

There's a series of videos on YouTube by the Chief Engineer aboard a bulk freighter; Chief MAKOi. In one video, he talked about how different ships use different equipment, but that as an engineering cadet, he learned how the various systems worked IN GENERAL, but over the course of his career, no two ships were maintained the same way.

If any of you have ANY interest in marine engineering, I can't recommend the channel highly enough!

Getting back to the subject at hand, this same variety of equipment is likely to be magnified a dozen fold (if not more) by the fact that these workboats were built by different, often hostile government corporations.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Worse than that, Jeff, aftermarket modifications will produce lots of differences. Gunboats were not intended to last very long, and were built cheap. Stuff wears out and when the ion processor or the coffee pot or the power modulator burns out you buy a commercial model at the next port of call and it could be from any of several empires (salvaged from scrapped gunboats/workboats) and/or any of several new civilian manufacturers. Lots of middle/small civilian companies would see a steady market in producing subsystems for use in workboats. One company might produce a cheaper unit for workboaters who are barely making a living while another company might market a premium version which is worth the higher price but only if you have the cash.

Think of it like your house. Most of us have a washer and a dryer but how many different models from how many different manufacturers do you think exist? Same for the oven, the microwave, the cooktop, the venthood, the garbage disposal, the diswasher, and so forth. And in 46 years my house has had two heaters, two air conditioners, two washing machines, two dryers, two diswashers, three refrigerators, one very good microwave, three cooktops, two ovens, two venthoods, and so forth.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Complexity is complex.

--Mike

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 11:54 pm: Edit

SVC, from my experiences (I did try to get a career as a construction electrician during my life-long fight with mental illness), it's even more complicated than that.

Here in the U.S., we've pretty much stabilized on a 120Z/208V 3-phase electrical system across most of the country. As a result, most appliances that're sold run off either 120V single phase, 208V single phase, or 208V 3-phase electricity, all commonly available at most households.

HOWEVER, back in the day before we had standardized at 120V/208V, there was also 110V single phase and 220V dual phase electricity (I've personally never worked with either, but when I was going through my schooling to learn the electrician trade, it was still covered). Also, in many commercial areas, they still work with 277V/480V feeds.

And THAT's all just the low voltage stuff!

Around the world, there're so many different voltages that I'd have a headache just trying to pull out the most common dozen! There're even some areas that don't go with the industrial standard 60 Hz A/C feed; some use a 50 Hz.

Translating all that to PSBS (Pseudo-Scientific Bull Somethingorother), imagine just the different kinds of FUEL that might be required. Fuel for this type of APR might require thermostabilized diatomic tritium at 40 to 60 Kelvins, for this other type of APR, they may insist on using magnospun Stabilized Liquid Metallic Hydrogen, for this other type, they have a special type of cryogenic Deuterium HE3 pellets, suspended in a liquid diatomic tritium medium...

Okay, how many different fuel tanks are going to be required for impulse engines, APRs, and the matter component of the WARP engines on one of these boats?

AAAUUUUUGGHHH!!!!

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 04:14 am: Edit

Fuel is not going to be that big of a headache. You have what ever mix the Alliance standardized on for supply chains purposes and, probably the same one, the one the Coalition standardized on. Maybe an odd one for the Hydrans but, probably the same one the Coalition uses. And the Rom's are anybody's guess.

I mean after all the Germans English Russians and Americans all used either Gas or Diesel for their tanks or trucks in WW2 even most the planes ran on the same Av Gas.

But on the subject of the hunt for Spare Parts. Sounds like an Captain's Log story or a Prime Directive Adventure Seed. Travel to an Gunboat demilitarized site and go through their junk heap.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 09:07 am: Edit

IIRC there is a SVC story about how there are multiple KINDS of fuel mixes.

Mutiny on the Demonslayer?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 01:04 pm: Edit

The fuel in Mutiny on the Demonslayer was separated by purity, not type. All the same stuff (deuterium slush) across the entire galaxy. The key point there was that the finely tuned engines on a fedex courier had to have really refined fuel to avoid damage. All of the fuel is more than 99% pure.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 04:08 pm: Edit

More thinking on the potentially wide variety of parts got the storyteller side of me going again.

(Uh-oh!)

I can imagine a role-playing setting of a Commercial Platform that specializes in reconditioning and sales of salvaged parts. It has a standard, 25 box civilian cargo pod on one side and a lab facility on the other (possibly with a shuttle or two?).

"Overflow," namely a quantity of parts that are not likely to have much of a demand, is stored in a hollowed out asteroid maybe four or five hexes away from the main facility.

In SFB/FC, such a facility would be little more than a target for a raid by Orions (or someone from a non-friendly empire) that's in need of some critical part, BUT has the hard standing orders to NOT destroy the facility; its parts catalogue is WAAY too important for the upper echelon to allow it to be destroyed.

Commandoes/BPs need to seize the bridge of the ComPlat to download the information on WHERE the required parts are stored, or would gaining "X" amount of Lab points from the asteroid be satisfactory...

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - 07:45 am: Edit

Nah just dock the complat to your convenient asteroid. Maybe with a barracks module...

Note that it's probably cheaper to buy the darn part rather than paying for the raid, with its attendant chance of an inconvenient Navy ship arriving just in time...

By Jack Bohn (Jackbohn) on Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - 08:28 am: Edit

Dang, now I need more parts!