For many empires in the Star Fleet Universe, there are small ships for small missions (such as the Federation Burke-class frigate), and... even smaller ships for even smaller missions (to include the Federation Flower-class corvette, which was printed in Captain's Log #54).

In the case of the Seltorians, I was wondering if such units might make sense for use in the home galaxy - or, perhaps, in places where they might try to found an empire of their own (say, in the Omega Octant).

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In this case, the building blocks would be a boom with a three-box warp engine, as well as a secondary hull with two three-box warp engines of its own.

One such boom and one such secondary hull would create a police corvette (or VT); two booms would instead produce a police frigate (or PFF); while three booms - which, like other "three-boom" hulls, would presumably only be possible with outside empire assistance - would lead to a police destroyer (or PDD).

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Historically-speaking, it's possible that none of these hulls were built by the Torch expedition in the Alpha Octant. After all, the Seltorians were focused exclusively on doing battle with the Tholians, and did not have a territory beyond their colony planet to patrol. (Or rather, the Klingons would have continued to patrol the surrounding area.)

Even so, might these might be useful back in M81, and/or in a situation where a separate expedition needs to take and hold territory of its own?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, November 03, 2023 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Hmmm, I see it two ways -

Reduced secondary hull with reduced booms (3/4?) or

'Near' standard DD/FF secondary hull with half booms ...

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Friday, November 03, 2023 - 09:40 pm: Edit

The problem I see with this is this: the Seltorians *were* the police in their home galaxy. The entire purpose of the Seltorian fleet was to enforce the will of the Tholian Will.

Once the Tholian Will was overthrown, the Seltorians promptly exercised the same ruthlessness over the other inhabitants of their home galaxy...i.e., military rule.

There's also the noted lack of innovation by the Seltorians, as noted when Klingon engineers quickly pointed out that they could use all three boom-docking positions on an aft hull, something that the Seltorians themselves had simply never considered. Given this, it's fairly likely that they simply didn't go down the police ship route.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, November 04, 2023 - 12:50 pm: Edit

I could see the Tholians providing the Seltorians with a ship equivalent to the Thoilian PC.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 05:46 am: Edit

I think Gary wants an equivalent of the Tholian POL.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 07:18 am: Edit

Another possible issue is the movement costs.

Look at Gary’s proposed Police Corvette or VT version, with one three box warp engine, and secondary hull with two three box warp engines. That adds up to (3+(3+3))=9 warp boxes.

Depending on the movement cost selected (presumably either MC= 1/3 or MC= 1/4) the ship would result in it generating either 27 hexes worth of tactical hexes per Star Fleet Battles game turn, or 36 hexes (for the MC = 1/4 VT version.)

To be blunt, it will be a slow Police cutter that needs all of its warp power and a point of impulse power to move a maximum of 28 hexes per turn, or it whizzes around the game board with up to 37 hexes of potential movement points per game turn without needing a point of impulse power… (yeah, I know the maximum possible movement is capped at 32 hexes per turn, the point is the 1/4MC VT would not require all of its warp power to achieve maximum movement.

Nice ability to be able to move at max speed AND be able to plot a HET (High Energy Turn) (and yes, I am aware that reserve energy use of batteries could be utilized as an alternative energy plot incase a HET is not needed.)

Just illustrating that the problem would make the Police VT variant either slow tactically or exceptionally fast.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 09:42 am: Edit

Both the Kzinti and Gorn POLs have 12 warp with a 1/3 move cost ("speed" = 37 with impulse), so the proposed Seltorian certainly isn't outside the realm of plausibility in that respect.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 11:32 am: Edit

True.

And there are “slow” ships as well, (Kzinti light Cruiser for one example .)

Such ships are challenging.

But it is not all player’s preference to have a handicap.

When escorting small freighters, it isn’t that much of a headache. Nor would base defense mission, assuming the ship was in orbit or docked with the base.

But-any mission that would need high speed is more likely to be difficult.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 12:32 pm: Edit

To be honest, I would likely go with 1/3. Tholian Home Galaxy POLs do not have a significant chance of facing raiders, or pirates. They are there for customs enforcement, and to remind the various local powers that if they do not behave, Fleet Units will arrive and explain to them the error of their ways.

I will also note, that I would see the Tholian POLs, if any, having 1/4, simply because they are in charge, and can do so.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, November 06, 2023 - 12:14 pm: Edit

To clarify, my intent was that the proposed Seltorian VT would have a Move Cost of 1/4 - putting it in the same category as the Federation VT, the Trobrin Patroller... and, as SVC noted, the Tholian Holdfast's POL.

By extension, the proposed PFF would have a Move Cost of 1/3; whereas the proposed PDD would have a Move Cost of 1/2 (akin to the Holdfast's police destroyer and police war destroyer).

Also, my suggestion would be for the VT and PFF - or rather, for the "extra-small" booms and "extra-small" secondary hulls used to create them - be pre-Revolt designs initially provided to the Seltorians in the home galaxy. But, once again, the PDD would only be possible to construct with outside empire assistance, as is the case for other "three-boom" Seltorian ships.

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Bear in mind that the Tholian POL (and PDD and PDW) are Holdfast-specific designs; their existence is tied to the creation of the 8-box warp engine used for the Holdfast's destroyer, which in turn was only developed once the last NDDs and NFFs were gone.

Also, as discussed over in the M81 module thread, the original "Seltorian" ships were basically the same designs used by the prior "enforcer" species who had served the Tholians, rose up in failed rebellions, and been replaced with the next contracted species. So it's likely that one of those - perhaps even the original "enforcer" species, whoever they were - had been the ones to first deploy these proposed "police" hulls.

Further, it's noted historically that while the "enforcers" typically had larger numbers of ships than the Tholians themselves, the Tholians maintained more ships of a larger displacement. Which, prior to the Revolt, was enough to ensure that the Tholians had the advantage during the inevitable "enforcer" rebellions. So even if the smallest warship used by the Tholians themselves was the PC, it would not be unreasonable for the "enforcer" species to make use of smaller and cheaper patrol ships than even the Seltorian frigate.

In short, even when patrolling an entire galaxy on the Tholians' bebalf, an "enforcer" species is obliged to operate on a budget. Which means that they might have use for a ship smaller (and cheaper) than a frigate, in order to fulfill their various duties across the M81 Galaxy.