Archive through January 15, 2024
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R04: ROMULAN PROPOSALS:
Dove class diplomacy ship:
Archive through January 15, 2024
Romulans are known for their Machiavellian way of doing things. To me, it would make sense that they would have some sort of purpose built "Diplomatic Vessel," similar to the Klingon D7N.
Given how many Romulan ship class names involve the term "Hawk," I thought the term "Dove" would be a fun tongue-in-cheek, but the name isn't set in stone. 
As to "Why" the central Romulan government would use such a ship, well, my "Fig Leaf" is that the Romulan central government could legitimately say that, "Only ships with `This' specific Warp Signature are ones authorized to carry our ambassadors. If someone claims to represent the entirety of the Romulan Empire, but are coming in another ship, they may only be representing a single Great House and may be trying to trick you into helping their House at the expense of both YOUR people AND the Romulan Empire."
As to what form of ship this "Dove" might be, my first thoughts on that are to take the Commando Hawk, remove its Cloaking Device (would a ship involved in "Diplomacy" NEED to be "Sneaking Around?"), and replace the Barracks with accommodations befitting an Ambassador.
I'd also imagine that part of the attache' staff would be either retired or, more likely active members of a Praetor team ("Yes, sir, I may be a bit rusty, but I am ex-military, and will help protect my ambassador!").
Anyhow, while this ship may end up being nothing more than a target in a scenario, I still think that, if the Feds have their diplomatic Frigates, then a ship like this might be worthwhile.
What do y'all think of this? Good idea/bad idea?
(Dumb idea? )
(sigh...)
Different hull to be used?
(The names, "Sparrowdove" and "Skydove" don't roll easily off the tongue, and for the life of me I can't even begin to think of trying to pass off a Condor/Dove crossbreed.)
1.) Why remove the cloaking device? The location can be sealed off from observation by visiting ambassadors of the planet?
2.) It is a recorded bit of history that the Romulan (and Gorn for that matter) of space is empty of habitation. At least warp capable or space capable civilizations.
3.) There are no Federation diplomatic ships (at least that I can recall). The Federation and apparently the Gorns, and Kzintis, and Hydrans, and Lyrans, and etc. all seem to use an available starship to serve is a diplomat transport. Would not the Romulans do the same?
4.) As ship production seems to be in the hands of the Great Houses, it seems that trying to build such a ship would require them to be involved and thus have full access to the blueprints, and scheming to sabotage such a ship because "the good of the empire is dependent on what is good for my House."
Federation has the VIP transport.
What YIS is being proposed for this? I think it's likely that a diplomatic vessel would be based on a currently-in-production ship rather than an obsolescent one. If you send your ambassador to negotiate with another empire and he (or she) arrives in an obsolete clunker of a hull, it risks sending the message to the other side; "We're sending our second string to negotiate with you because we don't really think you're particularly important." On the other hand, sending some very powerful warship, like a Condor or a SuperHawk, may be construed as "gunboat diplomacy" and provoke an adverse response.
Alternate suggestion: "Diplomatic Modules" for a SparrowHawk. If you need a ship for a high-profile diplomatic mission, install the modules on an available SparrowHawk to create a "Diplomatic Cruiser"; prestigious enough to impress but not so powerful as to be seen as an attempt to intimidate. Once the diplomatic mission is over, the ship can easily be re-converted to a warship.
Good questions.
SPP, with regards to Question #1, you are correct; it isn't necessary to remove the Cloaking Device. My "Reason" for suggesting it is because the Romulans would expect the nasty violation of all diplomatic protocol, the seizure of a diplomatic vessel. Even with a good (Praetorian) engineer there to sabotage (destroy) the Cloaking Device, enough might be left over for their enemies to reconstruct it enough to find some way to counter it, if not actually build unlicensed copies for their own forces.
(Given the treachery involved in Machiavellian House Politics, I can't imagine the Romulans NOT planning around that eventuality.)
Question #2, you are, as always, correct in there being no native spacefaring inhabitants in their space, but what about diplomatic missions, at least during times of peace, to the Federation, across Federation space to the Klingons or Lyrans? Sending a (virtually) unarmed ship would represent confidence and "Peaceful Desires" to the Federation or the ISC and may be the only way to allow passage through Federation space for those going to the Klingon Empire.
Question #3, as Nick pointed out, the Federation has a diplomatic transport based on their Frigate. Like this (tentative) proposal, such as ship is seldom much more than a target in a scenario, but you never know.
Question #4 is quite the doozy, and part of it is based on what I've read in technothrillers about Submarine warfare.
Whether this is true or not is something I honestly don't know, but in many technothrillers, sonarmen aboard submarines identify individual ships based on their acoustic signature; not just ship classes, but the individual vessels. It seems that each ship has something unique about it. Would such also be the case for unique, individual warp signatures of specific vessels?
I mean, I don't have the books in front of me, but isn't one of the highest levels of TacIntel identification of a specific vessel?
Long and short of it (more the former ) is that, yes, the Great Houses could build their own diplomatic ships, but the formal Imperial Romulan Diplomatic Corps would still tell folks they're trying to negotiate with that only THESE ships are carrying diplomats working for the Imperial Senate.
Of course, if I'm WRONG with any of these assumptions, well, I'm wrong on lots of stuff, so I'll (hopefully) not be a jerk about it.
Alan? TBH, I've not thought of a formal Year-in-Service for this ship type. Based on a reasonable "Need" (if it exists) for this ship from the earliest years (hey, did the Romulans ever try to diplomatically contact the Paravians regarding the mutual enemies, the Gorn? Probably not, but you never know), it could be early.
As to why it might have remained in service, well, given the Chickenhawk PFT, I have some reason to think that the Hawk class vessels (first generation Destroyers?) may have remained in service well past Y180, and indeed may have remained in production (like the KEX) to provide hulls for... Whatever...
As to the potentially negative message, there are some races that might interpret matters that way, but as I said earlier in this overly long post, what about a diplomatic mission to the ISC? How would "The Greatest Pacifists in the Octant" react to a heavily armed warship versus how they'd react to a virtually unarmed ship flying in with confidence?
Your suggestion of "Diplomatic Modules" for a SparrowHawk would make for probably a better ship. However, as I teased in my original proposal posting, I had this idea as a Tongue-in-Cheek on the whole "Hawk-and-Dove" dichotomy.
Also, to add on to the "Diplomatic Modules" idea, I can also VERY easily imagine a specific configuration for ANY HDW to serve in the diplomatic role; APR replaced with CARGO for hauling items meant as gifts to show the greatness of products and arts from one empire to another, the two OPT and four NWO add diplomatic shuttles and the luxurious accommodations for ambassadors to host parties, etcetera, etcetera. The two "Casual Fighters" aboard everyone's HDWs can serve as escorts for the ambassadorial shuttle, as it brought up in the description of the D7N, so even THAT aspect works, but again, I put this out for the whole "Hawk-and-Dove" counterpoints.
Not going to address JGA’s proposal directly at this time.
I think on the broad scope of Star Fleet Battles, the Romulan Empire is fundamentally an expanding Empire, that views other (lesser) political groups (Federation, Klingon, Lyran, Gorn, Kzinti etc…) as either enemies or serfs.
To even entertain the idea of a diplomatic vessel, one must accept the concept that other empires are by definition either equal to or allied with the Romulan Empire.
I am not sure the The Romulans would accept JGA’s premise that the Machiavellian approach to diplomacy.
If I recall correctly, one of the STTOS episodes specified that the “Romulans do not take prisoners”, although that later changed.
No, it just might be that if the Romulans want to be diplomatic, they might negotiate for tribute with a non Romulan populated world for tribute at phaser point…and an actual warship is far superior for that sort of thing.
3.) There are no Federation diplomatic ships (at least that I can recall). The Federation and apparently the Gorns, and Kzintis, and Hydrans, and Lyrans, and etc. all seem to use an available starship to serve is a diplomat transport. Would not the Romulans do the same?
Because they chose to do it differently. Seriously, that's all the answer that's needed. And with the Romulan sense of superiority, they'd probably be asking "why didn't everyone else do it our way", long before they'd ask "why don't we do it like them?"
However, Jeff Wile provides a far greater objection: To even entertain the idea of a diplomatic vessel, one must accept the concept that other empires are by definition either equal to or allied with the Romulan Empire. Even if the Dove was being used as a ploy to assuage fears and distract the enemy, as their fleet moved in for the kill, this would still require them thinking that they *HAD* to use such a ploy to win.
They're just too smug and self-assured to think they needed to trick the enemy. Instead, they'd build a "Diplomatic Battleship", cruise up to their neighbor and say, "We're here to peaceful negotiate your surrender!"
The Federation doesn't need a diplomatic ship because they train all their starship captains to be diplomats. And look at how well that's turned out for them over the years.
Garth L. Getgen
I think a Seahawk Module that is just HULL would be just fine.
In fairness, Jga, there's no indication that the Romulan Star Empire was in any way inclined to diplomatic efforts of a sort that would warrant such a vessel.
It is very much worth noting that they refused any/all contact with the UFP for nearly a century after the end of the First Romulan War. When they did make contact, it came in the non-verbal form of probing attacks on border outposts and any Starfleet vessels that came to investigate. Subsequent to that affair, they once again went radio silent right up into the General War (where again they elected to let their plasma torpedoes do the speaking). Even at Olsen's Reach, there's no guarantee that they genuinely intended to hold to the discussion that the UFP and Klingons had agreed to; they may have always intended for Vindex to attack, hoping to at least crippled or destroy a few Starfleet vessels and at most kill the Federation Chairman (given their imperial mindset, they may have viewed it as a decapitation strike).
There's also nothing resembling diplomacy on the Gorn front, where they conducted war after war until one side or the other was either unable to unwilling to continue prosecuting the war.
The only real diplomatic efforts noted were (1) the long and fruitless efforts to get the Jindarians to cough up tactical warp technology and (2) the deal with the Klingons to obtain the same, with subsequent entry into the General War. In both cases, they were using Old Series ships; it's difficult to see them going through the trouble of a custom conversion of any of those for the task.
Reading everybody's comments...
Thank you for sharing your opinions; I do enjoy the feedback.
At this point, it appears that I transplanted (?) the Romulan interhouse struggle onto their communications with outsiders; something not consistent with the ADB SFU. This effectively shoots down the original plan behind this thread.
If I may "Fig Leaf?"
Thank you.
In my post yesterday at 6:07 PM, I added a (then) throwaway idea of ANYONE using a particular configuration of the HDW (a favorite ship class, by the way) as a diplomatic vessel...
Should I open a new thread?
(he, hey, hey... Slirdarian Corporal! There's no need to brandish that frying pan that way!!)
A diplomatic ship might be justified for the purpose of internal diplomacy (between the great houses).
When the Klingons send a diplomatic cruiser, it is for two reasons: to protect the ambassador and his retinue (which the Klingon diplomats shall insist is the only reason), and to leverage the combat power of the ship itself during negotiations with less powerful governments (which those same Klingon diplomats would deny admitting in public).
By contrast, when the Federation sends a VIP frigate to transport their ambassador, they are sending a different message: they wish to project a sense of security in the latent economic and military strength of the UFP, in that there is no need to use a heavily-armed warship to transport such a high-ranking official. Although, a Star Fleet cruiser would no doubt be on standby in case things were to get serious.
So if the Romulan Star Empire found itself with a need to send a dedicated diplomatic vessel - of whichever design - somewhere, what kind of message would they wish to send?
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In my view, such as it is, much would depend on which timeline one is speaking of.
In the "standard" timeline, their view of outside diplomacy was rather limited prior to the Treaty of Smarba - though no doubt any diplomatic cruiser sent by the Klingons to Romulus during this time period would have left a powerful impression. But even then,
Later developments - such as Ambassador Thad Vak Kaleen's bid to bring the Romulans into the Coalition during the General War - were very much driven by the Klingons themselves. Or, in the case of the Andromedan War-era deal to ship more Klingon hulls to the Romulans (with the Federation helping to pay for them!), by the Feds and Klingons in tandem.
It would not be until Operation Unity before the Romulans would have found themselves with a need to take a more active role in outside diplomacy: be it in joining the negotiations over the planning an execution of Unity itself, or in the post-Unity need to maintain some sort of ongoing presence out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud.
So there might not be as much of a push to assign a dedicated diplomatic ship - though the idea of converting a SaberHawk (or SaberHawk-X) for this task might be useful for those Unity-era negotiations.
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In the "Mapsheet P" timelines, however, there would be a need to maintain ongoing diplomatic correspondence with the "lost empire" Paravians.
While the neutral world of Circle Trigon would be a likely conduit for this in times of "peace", there would be a need in more volatile times to slip envoys safely past hostile Gorn and ISC patrols over to (and back from) Paravia - not least in order to handle the leasing agreement through which the Romulans gained access to the "off-map" Farnest region.
So, if only to make sure the envoys were more likely to evade interception on the way to and from Paravian space, I would deem it somewhat more likely that the "Mapsheet P" Romulans would have need for one (or more) cloak-equipped diplomatic ships, so as to maintain their ongoing coalition with the Paravians.
Jeff, a “fig leaf” in this context is scant cover for one’s modesty. And in this specific context it is VERY SCANT cover.
This is an interesting idea. I would suggest it would need at least half of a cloaking device technology, the emitter arrays. If the erstwhile peaceful ship was (warning puesdo science ahead) emitting part of the cloaking signals, then you could in theory hide one or more warships in the sensor shadow of the peaceful envoy. This would appeal to the need for subterfuge and at the same time could be tuned so as to give false intelligence as to the actual nature of the cloak systems. How could you detect cloaked ships if that Diplomatic ship was emitting all sorts of gravitons and other -tons that blanket jam the narrow sensor traces that undetected cloaked ships give off after all….
Mind you, this is all quite moot for reasons discussed above.
If I recall correctly, Romulan ships carry nuclear Space Mines, (large, size).
I suspect that as a specific rule, rather than a General one, that should mean any diplomatic vessel should also have a NSM.
Gotta admire any empire that provides their diplomats access to a weapon that does 35 points of damage to every unit in the hex of, and all 6 adjacent hexes (total of 7).
Note that only planets with atmosphere, mines, are immune to the effects off a mine explosion.
What a great excuse to sail a Romulan diplomatic ship right up too a prospective enemy home world, drop off a NSM on the way out after diplomatic negotiations, only to purposely detonate the NSM with a botched sweeping attempt.
“GEE, we detected the NSM and TRIED to disarm it. Sorry about the damage to your ship yard, your mothball fleet, the several dozen shuttles within range and the SAM and Commercial Platform, as well as the subspace communications station.”
The best diplomat I know is a fully armed NSM.
--Mike
Jeff,
I believe only the old-style "Eagle" series ships automatically carry NSMs as part of their standard loadout. Kestrel and Hawk series ships have the option to buy an NSM, jusr as everybody's warships have the option to but T-bombs. But they don't get them automatically.
I presume you're being facetious about the Romulans using a diplomatic ship to mine a prospective enemy's homeworld. The Romulans will have committed an act of war and EVERYBODY will know they did so. It won't matter that the ship was nominally a diplomatic ship. It won't matter what the Romulans claim about the incident (since NO ONE will believe them). They are now at war and everyone not already allied with the Romulans will regard them as the aggressors. Moreover, they will have sabotaged their own diplomatic efforts for several decades to come.
And why are the target empire's valuable assets concentrated so closely together to begin with? And why would a Romulan ship (even a "diplomatic ship") be allowed to transit so close to them? It doesn't make sense. But as I said, my guess is that you were being facetious. If not, I'm curious to hear how you think the Romulans could actually pull this off in a way that would work to their ultimate advantage.
Alan, yes. I was being facetious.
And no, it was not a serious proposal.
As to why all the assets were grouped close to the planet?
If we are talking about a single planetary system, (possibly new warp capacity) where else would they put their slipways? And if new Warp using world, they need some kind of orbital base(s) above the gravity well to facilitate ship construction.
And while, the game history does confirm few habitable star systems in Romulan space, how could the Romulans guarantee their superiority? Well, destroying the competition before they get powerful enough to be a serious threat IS one method the Romulans could use.
Besides, if you kill ALL of the witnesses, who is going to report the attack to the Federation?
Extract from the Federation Master Starship Book: VIP Transport "This ship was SOMETIMES used for diplomatic missions . . ." It is NOT purpose built for the mission of carrying diplomats, but is a more general ship.
To take an earlier post in a slightly different direction, perhaps a VIP transport version of the SkyHawk cargo transport module could do the trick.
Instead of 8 cargo, 4 tractor beam and 2 shuttle boxes, the would-be VIP module could be given 8 C hull, 4 shuttle, and 2 tractor beams.
When installed on a SkyHawk, the resulting ship would be larger than a Federation VIP transport, yet smaller than a Klingon diplomatic cruiser. And, when it isn't being used on "external" missions, perhaps it could be made use of "domestically" by high-ranking Senators, Great House leaders, and others of high enough rank and privilege.
On a side note, this would be a parallel development to the VIP Module used by the Iridani Questors.
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If an earlier Eagle-series counterpart was needed - say, over in one of the "Mapsheet P" and/or "Shadow of the Eagle" timelines - then a VIP transport version of the Freight Eagle (to include its speed-30 "Queen" upgrade from Captain's Log #39) could easily be drawn up also.
There probably wouldn't be enough spare Kestrel hulls to bother using a Klingon-built design for such a role, however.
Just thinking, wouldn't any Romulan Diplomat (if you could actually use the term) be a Senior Member of one of the Houses and already have a major warship at their beck and call.....
Would think the Lyran's would be the same....
Not the mention (Ahem) the Kzintis.
You can’t move around anywhere in the Patriarchy with out stumbling over a member of the nobility (or a relative of the Nobility).
More often than not (it seems…) plotting a coup or actively participating in an insurrection (or two.)
If you start giving “Diplomatic ships” out, you are just arming the rebels of some future civil war.
Okay, okay, I get it.
I get it.
There are some of you who dislike the idea, some of you who absolutely HATE it.
These boards are meant as a sort of "Throw around the idea over a couple of cold ones."
Some folks don't like carriers and don't use them in their campaigns (or just simply don't fly them in pick-up games). That's fine. Other folks don't like Gunboats, which again is just fine.
Aw heck! SVC doesn't like Mega-Fighters (and it's HIS game, for crimony's sake!!)
If you hate Doves so much, just ignore this thread.
A SkyHawk Module cannot replace tractors which are part of the hull the module fits to. It is still going to have four tractors.
Jeff Anderon:
Do not give up the idea on a few naysayers.
If anything, the Romulans would seem to be the ideal template as Agents provocateurs of the Star Fleet Universe.
Spreading chaos and unrest throughout the Alpha Quadrant.
Any civil unrest among the neighboring Empires bordering the Romulans would only make conquest that much easier.
Instead of a Dove Class Diplomatic ship, perhaps what is needed is an Albatross Class harbinger of War, Famine, Pestilence and Death.
Not sure why any Empire would willingly accept such a thing, but if the Romulans started using them during their pre warp years, to “cleanse the galaxy” ahead of the eventual assimilation by the Romulan Empire, they might just continue using the same methods as technology advanced.
Think about it, its like the old twilight rod stirling tv episode where the aliens first contact procedure was a book titled “to serve man”. The early earth humans thought the aliens were Altruistic, not realising the book was recipes to cook humans.
Well, just a thought…