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	Archive through March 08, 2024	25		03/09 03:20pm
	Archive through April 01, 2024	25		04/02 02:35pm
	Archive through April 08, 2024	25		04/14 04:16pm
	Archive through April 25, 2024	25		04/26 05:35pm

Reading through this, I would agree that putting Web Casters on up to six ships, instead of fixing up to six of a limited resource on a base, behind web, is a much better investment. If needed at the base, the ships can be there, if not, they can be where they are more effective.

Phaser on the base. While the eighteen phaser IV starbase currently in the game is a real monster, I also agree that down grading those six extra phaser-IVs that are not web casters to paired phaser-Is makes for a more fun game for the not Tholian player.

Andros, My thoughts were to jump the outer ring, crash the middle ring, send the sat ships to crash the inner ring. The base can't ignore them, and by the time the mother ship can displace again, and crash the inner web, the sat ships will have hurt the base.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, April 26, 2024 - 12:12 am: Edit

You are not going to get 12 p1s in swap for six WCs.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, April 26, 2024 - 01:47 am: Edit

From the Tholian MSSB:

Old Galaxy Starbase:
weapon #2 = Particle Cannon
weapon #4 = Web Caster

Milky Way SB/SBX: (pre-refit)
weapon #2 = Phaser-4
weapon #4 = Web Generator

Refitted Tholian SB/SBX
weapon #2 = Web Caster
weapon #4 = Snare

It's odd that the Milky Way Tholians did not install Disruptors as weapon #2 since they are the closest equivalent to the Particle Cannons used as weapon #2 in the Old Galaxy.

It's odd that the Old Galaxy Tholians didn't think of using a Phaser-4 in place of the Particle Cannon (since the later Milky Way design proved this could be done).

It's odd that the Milky Way Tholians chose to have Web Casters replace the Phaser-4 rather than the Web Generators (as they did in the Old Galaxy).

The pre-refit Milky Way Starbase is clearly the most sensible design. Particle Cannons, Web Casters and Snares are all of limited utility since they can't fire through the base's own webs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, April 26, 2024 - 04:42 pm: Edit

A Tholian Starbase that has a wedding cake is, as been amply demonstrated, defending itself. A Starbase with web casters can support a Tholian task force. I mean no offense to Alan Trevor, but he has amply demonstrated that a Tholian base in a wedding cake is invincible, and, yes Tholian ships can pass through the webs to reach succor, and more phasers make it stronger. No one will dare attack it, so it will NEVER be played against. I have responded that the only solution I can see (beyond a fiat rules imposition, See SVC's famous observation about the deployment of the Klingon D6M) is siege tactics. In that, I can concede to Alan Trevor the moniker of Vauban.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, April 26, 2024 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Ok then, this leaves the question of why limited production items, i.e. web casters, would be placed on bases, where they will be used rarely, if at all. Instead of on mobile units where they can be used against besiegers, and supply convoys.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 12:45 am: Edit

Perhaps because on bases they will be unlikely to be lost, and provide a base with the ability to influence a wide area, not just hide inside a web cake. I can see removing them from the base but adding phasers just makes the base unplayable. Apparently Alan wants to have the one thing in SFB that no one will ever attack.

As a former Tholian commander (The Right Reverend Ron Wheeler) once said: "If you cannot be beaten you never get to play."

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 08:39 am: Edit

Something popped into my (alleged) mind on this subject. The Tholian Stellar Fortress (R1.89) has 6 web generators and no wbcasters. If the Tholians didn't put rare webcaster technology on the most powerful base they could possibly build, why would they deploy it on smaller bases?

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 09:53 am: Edit

However, we are not adding phasers, at least with the phaser IV version, 18 PH-IVs on the starbase is the version currently in the game, pre-web casters. Replacing the 6 extra PH-IVs with twelve PH-Is is a downgrade on long range fire.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 11:13 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Apparently Alan wants to have the one thing in SFB that no one will ever attack.

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Quote:

Each web point is equivalent to 0.25 BPV points (or 472.5 points for a maximum-strength wedding cake).

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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 11:29 am: Edit

Two different conversations. Doing the cost change (which I support) doesn't change that the proposal in this topic seems bad for the game. I am willing to allow Tholians to remove the WCs for a BPV discount but not replace them with phasers or anything else.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Currently, WC replace ph-IVs when put on a base.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 03:56 pm: Edit

And the webcaster refit is optional per R7.72 so the Tholian player can keep the ph-IV by ignoring the refit.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Perhaps this might be an opportunity to line the M81 and Holdfast base designs up a little more neatly.

According to the Tholian Master Starship Book, the Holdfast Tholians had the blueprints for the home galaxy bases on file when they arrived in the Alpha Octant. What they lacked was the means to actually build such bases, at least not right away - hence their need to "re-learn" by copying Early Years Klingon base templates and use them to build up the means by which they could construct "modern" bases once again.

If one wishes to remove web casters from Tholian bases in both galaxies, one could start by adjusting the old galaxy starbase Weapon #4s to web generators, while keeping the particle cannons intact.

Then, perhaps replacing the Weapon #2s on the pre-refit Holdfast starbase with disruptors, to match the use of particle cannons back in M81.

Later, the only "refit" (not counting the installation of first-generation X-technology) would be to add the snare refit to the web generators; the rest of the starbase weapon suite (to include keeping disruptors in the Weapon #2 slots) would be the same.

So, to re-iterate, that would be:

M81 SB: Weapons #1 and #3 are phaser-3s; Weapon #2 is a particle cannon; Weapon #4 is a web generator.
Holdfast SB (pre-refit): Weapons #1 and #3 are phaser-3s; Weapon #2 is a disruptor; Weapon #4 is a web generator.
Holdfast SB (refit): Weapons #1 and #3 are phaser-3s; Weapon #2 is a disruptor; Weapon #4 is a web snare.

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One might ask: why install disruptors, which cannot fire through webs?

Well, as noted earlier in the thread, the Holdfast Tholians had pressing issues in terms of Sphere restoration and maintenance, at least through to Y180. As in, anyone bright enough to qualify as a Legendary Engineer during this time period was funnelled into the Sphere reclamation effort. And those engineers not so tasked had more than enough to do, not least in terms of researching how to field new ship designs and (later) new attrition units.

So it is quite possible that there simply wasn't the spare research capacity, knowledge, and insight to more thoroughly rethink the home galaxy base templates, beyond accounting for the use of disruptors in place of particle cannons. Or to put it another way: when it took more than 40 years to build up the capacity of constructing those bases in the first place - and decades more before they could bring the web and shield capacities up to their "full" levels - even this was considered to be enough of a success without worrying too much about how optimal these designs were in an Alpha Octant context.

If that means the Holdfast base commander is stuck with certain weapons (disruptors) which can't be fired through webs, so be it. At least that means they can avoid arming them until, or unless, things get a little too close for comfort...

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 05:40 pm: Edit

I will note that PCs can not fire through web, either. Only Tholian phasers can.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 06:08 pm: Edit

If that refit exists then this entire conversation is pointless. That is, unless Petrick wants to eliminate that refit as too powerful.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 10:36 pm: Edit

>> And the webcaster refit is optional per R7.72 so the Tholian player can keep the ph-IV by ignoring the refit.

I believe this references R7.R2 in Captain's Module C2, page 31, as well as R7.70 in the Tholian MSB, page 43.

R7.72 is the reference for the Neo-Tholian Frigate, which I do not believe applies to this discussion (unless I'm missing something).

--Mike

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Mike,

Thanks for the correction, that was careless of me. R7.R2 is also on page 5 of the Tholian MSB.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, July 19, 2024 - 09:41 am: Edit

I have a few observations about this discussion. I agree that a base having the inner ring of a wedding cake dissolve without the base being destroyed is almost impossible. The inner ring can be voluntarily dropped to allow WC use.

I would suggest that if enemy forces are on the same map as a Tholian base, the battle is about the base. Exceptions would have to have something else of value like a convoy or potential anchor asteroids moving toward a base.

The discussion of a siege is currently outside the scope of SFB rules. How do you put counters on a map and wait for the Tholians to run out of fuel to power their webs? It's an interesting discussion topic, but not playable.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, July 19, 2024 - 03:16 pm: Edit

I have a few observations about this discussion. I agree that a base having the inner ring of a wedding cake dissolve without the base being destroyed is almost impossible. The inner ring can be voluntarily dropped to allow WC use.

I would suggest that if enemy forces are on the same map as a Tholian base, the battle is about the base. Exceptions would have to have something else of value like a convoy or potential anchor asteroids moving toward a base.

The discussion of a siege is currently outside the scope of SFB rules. How do you put counters on a map and wait for the Tholians to run out of fuel to power their webs? It's an interesting discussion topic, but not playable.