Archive through March 25, 2024
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Ships:
R01: GENERAL UNITS PROPOSALS:
LUSV: Large, uncrewed, Space, Vessel.:
Archive through March 25, 2024
This is a semi-serious discussion of the FYEO article about the US Navy deploying "robot freighters" which could even be armed with all kinds of things (missiles to strike land targets, missiles to shoot at airplanes, missiles to shoot at ships) and sail around cheaply to support USN ships. Could something like that add something to SFB/F&E? Would there be any functional difference in game terms from just a crewed auxiliary?
I think is not only possible but likely that bulk/low cost items like ore or grain would be shipped this way.
The only issues I can see is that some things that normal ships take care of in transit, like general maintenance and fine tuning, cannot be done by an automated ship.
And automated weapons, unless they have a specific target, tend to either be easily fooled or they shoot at anything even closely resembling a target.
I would suggest that automated ships fall under the restrictions for ships without a minimum crew.
As for justification:
I might be mistaken but I seem to remember an episode where a series of unmanned freighters went missing.
I'm pretty sure in the M-5 episode of the original series (I don't recall the name of the episode but it's the one in which Dr. Daystrom installs the prototype M-5 supercomputer in the Enterprise, using the ship as a testbed), one of the early signs that there's a problem is when the M-5 targets and destroys an unmanned robot freighter.
The animated Tribbles episode also had "robot ships," as Kirk called them. These are closer to what I'm thinking of, as the Enterprise is in constant contact with them, and able to alter their course, at least. I would say the difference is the "Tribbles" ships have warp nacelles, while the "Ultimate Computer" freighter is reused footage of Khan's ship, meaning it is the DY-500 Kirk mistook that for, a sublight --or, as we say now, Non-Tactical Warp-- vessel.
The Large, Uncrewed, Space Cargo and Weapons Vessel would need military-grade warp engines for zipping back and forth from the port to the fleet. And, of course, for keeping up speed in battle.
Steve, were you serious, or was the LUSV thing you mentioned in FYEO imported into StarFLeet Battles meant as a joke?
Seems unlikely if such LUSV (Large Uncrewed Space Vessel?) required the use of seeking weapons control channels …
But if it could be controlled at a distance by a Star base and a Special Sensor?
Might be worth opening a topic for discussion.
I was curious, more than serious. I think transporters would make the concept questionable.
Depends, I suppose, on how much room is left on board the LUSV.
Uncrewed implies zero hull for enemy boarding parties. Perhaps a temporary bridge could “plug in” for diagnostic tests, detached when it is sent on a mission.
That means boarders could be transported on to the hull… once there, in space suits, well… weapons intended to kill or stun opponents might not be enough to crack open the exterior hull.
Just a thought.
I think there would be plenty of room left inside the LUSV to provide access for repairs and maintenance.
I do not think it could be tactically controlled by long distance. In general you could send it an email ordering it to go to a specific area and fire bombardment drones, I guess. I think it could be controlled by a manned warship but it may overtax the fire control and guidance systems.
There are the rules for suicide freighters that're used to assault bases. HOWEVER, even those ships are crewed until right before the assault.
For those of you who are interested, there is a YouTube channel I've mentioned before, Chief MAKOi, who is the chief engineer aboard a bulk freighter. Many of his videos are about the day-to-day work that's done to maintain the ships. With regard to this subject, it may prove illuminating to see how much is usually done on-the-fly; something an uncrewed vessel would be unable to do.
For those of you who (quite reasonably) may think, "Oh, it can just be done in Drydock every few months or so," MAKOi has a series of videos from when a ship he was assigned to DID go in to Drydock; what they do there is VERY different from the day-to-day.
While I have no personal experience on the subject, it is my opinion that the LUSV would only be useful for hauling certain bulk loads from one super highly developed world to another, where the load materials take time to load and unload, so while that's being done, the "Dock Crews" can also put the ship on external power and do the routine maintenance.
Such a system would NOT save the shippers much in the way of money; the full crews would still be necessary. The only advantage is that the maintenance crews would be able to go home and be with their families every night, but this advantage would come at the cost of only being able to do runs amongst a few ports of call, something that would cost them business.
My 0.02 Quatloos worth...
Well, the LUSV as described in the article is 1,500 tons and capable of 42 knots, with missiles that it can't reload. A Zumwalt destroyer (which is a big destroyer) is 15,000 tons and can travel at 30 knots. LUSV is only 10% as big. So in SFB terms, the LUSV sounds small but bigger than a gunboat and with more endurance and tactically quite fast. If you want it based on a freighter, perhaps something built on an Armed Priority Transport hull?
It"s noted in SFB Module C1 that "slow" ships, such as monitors and frieghters, use robot pilots in order to pass through the WYN Radiation Zone; there are rules governing how to apply this in (P7.95), but I don't see much there on what the ship under such control can actually do.
I don't know for sure if there is a published scenario featuring such units, where such things might be covered in more detail. But I vaguely recall there being one somewhere: something about the WYNs deliberately sending one out of the Cluster at a point where it would be intercepted by patrols from two of the adjacent empires at the same time?
Presumably, there would be similar issues affecting "slow" units out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, in terms of their being able to cross the Core radiation shell. So any rules which might cover automated "slow" units in the Alpha Octant might well apply in the LMC also.
Of course, the Andromedans use robotic "crew units" in both galaxies. But for them, the issue is more to do with how well (or badly) their PA panel system interacts with such terrain, as opposed to how survivable it is for their crews. But, over in Omega, perhaps the Andros might use their closest equivalent to "uncrewed" cargo transports when sending supplies aboard DisDev-less support units through the Ryn Nebula wall - though they don't appear to have a shortage of "standard" robots to crew such units, it would seem.
On a side note: we don't yet have SSDs for any Drex support ships in print as of yet. But, it would be interesting to see if their intelligent "crew units" can survive a would-be crossing of a WYN/Core-like radiation shell - or if their more advanced processsors are at risk of being affected by the radiation to the same extent as a biological crewbeing (or a would-be Drexari "passenger").
As in, whatever more simplistic system is used to cross the WYN and Core radiation shells by biological species might in turn need to be used by the Drex, if their standard robot crews could not survive a crossing aboard such a ship.
Similarly, were the Juggernaut Empire to ever get a future module upgrading them to an Andromedan-level "campaign compatible" faction, it might be worth clarifying whether or not any support units for that faction would be similarly affected or not.
As a further aside, there are those empires which do not use "metal-hull" ships. For the Alunda Host, it would be curious to see how, or if, a Host ship might try to "shepherd" a group of wild alunda from one side of the shell to the other. Meanwhile, it would be awkward if the "dragon" part of a Branthodon dragonship could survive a radiation shell crossing, but the "ship" portion housing the crew could not...
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For what (little) it's worth, I would sooner treat the use of "military" robotic systems as something which should be limited to bespoke situations, such as the aforementioned need for "slow" units to cross the WYN and Core radiation shells. Unless the empire in question is either comprised of intelligent robots (such as the Drex), or which is shown to make extensive use of robots, which in and of themselves might or might not have a Drex-like level of intelligence (such as the Andromedans or Juggernauts).
But, if there is some lower threshold out there at which some degree of automated auxiliary unit is made to exist (for "metal-hull" empires, that is), well and good.
I suppose they could be used to either act to cause disruption to pirates or enemy supplies runs or weapons platforms to support small fleet units.
Option1: the unit is sent to x coordinates and ordered to fire on anything that does not provide a proper pass code, until either the weapons are exhausted or a specific time period. also since they are mobile they could "patrol" a set region of high pirate traffic or a region used by enemy logistics. This way they could be sent behind the lines and if they are lost there was no crew endangered.
Option2 they fly in formation with a FF or DD who provides tactical instructions. In games terms, the owning player must fly a predetermined path, but can fire weapons at will as long as active starship is within 30 hexes.
or even used on base assaults, there would have to be limits on control, or they revert to shoot everything and run away.
They would be cheaper to build than a regular ship, no life support required, and would need to be supported from a base, or fleet tug for repairs and maintenance.
there would be no repair, or reloads, either minimal or no ecm/eccm,
To me the most obvious application of a remotely controlled unmanned auxiliary ship is something loaded with as many Type-D or Type-B drone racks that will just pump out drones as quick and as hard as possible. No reloads, firing rate to be determined, control issues to be determined.
I figure that would be unbalancing and would be a ridiculously high value target, so I have no idea if it could even work. But that would seem to be the most valuable thing that would also be easy to build using auxiliary technology.
I would think that a good candidate for an unmanned mission would be a ship that would otherwise be sent to the breakers such as a hull that was too old or obsolete to keep in service. Refitting it for a one way mission (from which it is not expected to return) might actually be less expensive (in the long run) than keeping it in operation.
My initial reading had been for some sort of interstellar freighter, but this thread has gone quite a bit in the direction of a warship.
On that subject, my concerns about routine maintenance still hold, but the thought does come to mind about an orbital weapon system in defense of a MAJOR base (StarBase?) or important planet. In either case, I would RECOMMEND that some of the same limits involved in remotely piloted fighters be kept in mind; namely not allowing it to go more than thirty five hexes away from what it's protecting.
(The base crew brings it aboard most every day for casual maintenance by the base crew; at WS-0 or WS-1, perhaps it would need to go through a "Surprised" series of activation rolls?)
As far as the tech behind it goes, perhaps it can be called an offshoot project for the super-intelligent computer run ships? Once THAT tech was found to be faulty, some effort was made to get SOME use out of it, and these "Base Orbitals" were the end product?
(BTW: I post this because I really do want to support the enthusiasm for new ideas, but IMO, this is one of those things that, if it WERE reasonable, then classic crewed ships would seldom, if ever, be used.
(My 0.02 Quatloos worth. 
)
Quote:BTW: I post this because I really do want to support the enthusiasm for new ideas, but IMO, this is one of those things that, if it WERE reasonable, then classic crewed ships would seldom, if ever, be used.
That's the point of the auxiliary based drone-launcher. It's unmanned and trying to put in a bunch of ATG or Type-III drones would be ludicrously expensive. Instead, its role is simply to pump the drones out. The manned ships around it would then be responsible for controlling and guiding the drones. There might even be some clunky rules around how targetting has to work since it is unmanned. It would also likely be limited to standard Type-I explosive drones of appropriate speed because of the expense.
For the Feds, this could be great. Their ships typically have a single drone rack, yet they can control six seeking weapons. Having this unmanned drone-chunker yeeting out drones for the actual warships to control would contribute to the part normal warships can't do (have enough drones to launch) and ignore the part the warships are perfectly capable of doing (controlling the drones). This suggestion not only doesn't eliminate crewed ships, but actually requires them for the unmanned ship to even function.
Again, this is probably horribly unbalancing and has other hideous issues that I am ignoring. But, if you want a combat capable auxiliary robot ship that would actually contribute to the battle, this would definitely qualify!
(The biggest problem, of course, is that this is really only good for the Feds, Klingons, and Kzinti. Plasmas don't have enough range to make this work.)
Law of unintended consequences strikes again!
This should (imo) be enthusiastically endorsed by any and all Canines players of a certain minor empire lurking upnear the Kzinti/Lyran region of the F&E map.
Particularly if the LUSV can be adapted to use any sort of anti fighter or anti drone weapons.
I doubt that the LUSV could auto load Desth Bolts, and even the use of Disrupter Cannons is suspect… but the ability to upgrade drone defense? of individual ships? Priceless!
Hmmm, looking to dethrone the drone ships already??
The drone LUSV still have some pretty massive advantages:
1) Even without reloading, B-racks or D-racks will still be able to kick out a large volume of drones. Heck, even going totally cheap with A-racks will still get some killer amount of drones floating around.
2) Any weapon outside drones, particularly anything that is anti-fighter or anti-drone, requires an extremely vulnerable ship to get way too close to the action to do anything. A drone ship is designed to stay way away. Obviously, that can't last too long, but given just A-racks, maybe it can get all of the drones out before it becomes a legitimate target.
3) It can still likely load out some phasers or ADDs for self-defense, but those would never been intended for it to get close to anything. They would only be there for when something gets close to it despite best efforts.
If you really want a massive drone wave from an auxiliary, what about replacing the Ready Racks on an Auxiliary Carrier with Type-F Drone Racks? Six Drones per turn from an AxCVL, twelve from an AxCVA. The latter, of course, would require being refitted with double drone control and extensive use of ATG drones would also be required by both.
(This is NOT a proposal )
With something that simple, I don't see anyone building a super drone launch platform, especially with an uncrewed launcher, but perhaps that's just me.
Better not be.
F racks (a.k.a. Jump racks) have some serious draw backs that make them rather undesirable.
Plus, no crew means no reloading of drones is possible.
You might want to actually read the rules concerning F Racks. Particularly the part about possible chain detonations of loaded drones.
That, and AXCVL and AxCVA hulls are very expensive units that should be servicing fighters, not treated as an expendable disposable drone launcher.
JSW, you miss the whole point of my post entirely.
Should AxCVs be servicing fighter? Yes, provided there ARE fighters for them to service. Attrition amongst attrition units almost always will exceed production of said attrition units, and fleet units will get the limited numbers before the auxiliaries do.
In defense of F-racks, there was an article in a Captain's Log that showed A-racks as rotary launchers while F-racks were flat ones. Ergo, when the Klingons replaced their F-racks with A- (and later B-)racks, there would have been surplus F-racks sitting around not being used.
For this reason, despite the risks, if the need were critical, I can imagine some Klingon admiral proposing this idea; he might expect that such a unit would likely be kept out of mainstream combat (despite scenarios such as, "And Settle Their Hash"), and even if he DID consider it a possibility, couldn't it be crewed by personnel awaiting a berth on a Penal Ship?
HOWEVER, if there were a shortage of fighters, I'd also expect a shortage of drones, which is just one of a great number of reasons why I posted, "This is NOT a proposal."
As far as the chain reactions go, I've never obsessed about always exclusively using "Just the Best and all refits," so I actually figured them in as another of the great number of reasons why I posted, "This is NOT a proposal."
The reference to "No Crew" was in keeping with the general theme of this whole thread and the inability to reload the racks was considered as yet ANOTHER of the reasons why I posted, "This is NOT a proposal."
Auxiliary carriers can be used to ferry fighters to front-line units. Isn't there a published scenario in which Ardak Kumerian destroyed a Kzinti auxiliary carrier which was carrying replacement fighters for a front-line unit? It's an older scenario, can't remember the name. I think carrier auxes are still too useful as carriers for them to be converted to drone-bombardment platforms, even temporarily.
Do note that the drone LUSV already assumes no reloads.
The biggest problem with F-racks is firing rate. You can only fire half of your loadout per turn, instead of all of them. A small LUSV is gonna have to be able to pump out at least six drones per turn to even remotely have a chance to justify its expense.
Carriers with fighters, scatter packs and deck crews to facilitate reloading drones on to fighters and scatter pack shuttles absolutely dwarfs the small level salvos (and near total waste of most of a carriers drone stockpile of drones.)
To work, a LUSV must be able to close the range to its target in order to saturate said target with the initial salvo.
Any opponent with functioning brain cells has to know that the best time to kill the LUSV is before it can let loose its weapons.
And even if the LUSV can get close enough to make effective use of the initial drone salvo, it still retains a significant portion of the drone load out still sitting in its drone racks waiting for the next opportunity to launch.
Ultimately, the reason JGA’s “not a proposal” fails ALL criteria as a effective weapons platform, is the cost benefit value.
Carriers are much more expensive than normal warships because the BPV includes many factors, one of which is the drone stockpile. Another is the deck crews that are supposed to be reloading drones for follow up salvos of drones. A third is the increased number of seeking weapons control channels.
JGA is ignoring all of that in his “not a proposal”, and several other things, such as the effect of drone ready racks (that, again, Never get used in JGA’s “not a proposal”.)
The cost of using Auxiliary Carriers as a LUSV can be calculated as the BPV divided by the combat BPV, which should discount all of the things listed above. The resulting ratio will, by definition be less than 1.0.
In truth, the economic value of the fighters normally carried on the Auxiliary CVL/CVA should be included as well. At a guess, the resulting monstrosity of JGA’s “not a proposal” might well end up being around 0.2 or 0.25.
Not quite in the range of the various unarmed cargo shuttles, but definitely heading for that territory.