Dave wrote:
>>We allow one of the Fast Fed options. I forget which configuration, but Peter will probably remember.>>

I think it was the one with 3xPhotons, 3xFH P1s, 1xLFL P1, 1xLFL P1, 3x360 P1s, 4xP3s in various places, G rack, 40 power (32/4/4)?

Something like that.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, August 25, 2024 - 08:39 am: Edit

I'd play a Fast Fed. Any Fed tournament ship without 4 FA photons is a better Fed.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, August 25, 2024 - 08:24 pm: Edit

my thought is.....

The Fed that bad of a ship? Or that good on an alpha strike jackpot?

I really do not understand the reason for wanting to fix the FED. Adding the G rack was the right thing to do. I think however a better drone lay out chosen by the player might be more useful.

As For The KE, it sucks. I love the ship in game play. In tourney will it is lousy and not even the same ship really. There is no real way to make it a good tourney ship.

The Great black shark. In my opinion it is to good.. 4 drone racks 4 Dirs. lots of phasers. Good power curve. To strong.

I have played The Selt. Tough ship can take a good hit. Turns like a barge. It has 8 phaser-1 already. No more is needed. It has an extra shield cracker. Has 32 warp. The Gorn lost 2 warp. 4apr 4 imp for 40 power. I just think people need to play it more.

Then the Jindo... Touney ships are HC. it is a LC/
war cruiser. Yet you cannot use the HCS?
30 warp on par with other ships. 4apr and 4 imp. 4btty every ship gets 5 (btty HET) 8 shuttle. easy drop 4 shuttle (prospecting shuttles not on board)
I would drop the FA phaser 1 giving it 8ph1 and add 2 ph3 360. Drop the option boxses as well. Good ship then

Just my thoughts

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, August 25, 2024 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Mr Vandar - it makes zero sense in a complex game, with a million words of rules, that a Fleet Captain with 20 ace cards who has played for 40 years would get beat by a guy who has played for 4 hours with a single roll of the dice at range 8 that is 3,3,3,3 or better. It is equally poor that the same player flying the Fed flagship of Star Trek would lose that game 95% of the time if they roll 4,4,4,4.

I am not trying to be nasty at all by what I am about to say. Over the years, several folks seem to think that it makes sense that this is the way it is. For the life of me, I can not imagine why it is ok to anyone that in a tournament this scenario exists.

I mean literally- the game doesn't really need to be played at all. I am a 5 time Ace. I am playing another Ace. I am going to get a range 8 shot and I will have phasers too. Or they will. There is nothing that is going to stop that. The game can be decided for all intensive purposes by simply never setting the game up and roll the dice. Half the time the Fed wins or loses right there. And really, the Fed isn't winning probably 50 % of its games if it only hits with 2. The Fed is a bottom 3rd ship and yet somehow can crush Fleet Captains just like that. How is that a good thing either way? Are we thinking we should give new players a pass because they will be encouraged? Or that we are happy the Fed is a bottom 5 ship because Klingons are cooler? Joking.

Truthfully, I don't need to hit a guy with 4. If I hit you or anyone at range 8 with 3 photons and 6 p1's - you are probably dead. Seth, Geof, Ron, Dana, Bill, Moose, Peter, etc, almost everyone, if anyone rolls 3,3,3,4 - the other guy is dead, game over. Lights out imp 26 of turn 1 and you didn't knock a shield down. That just seems ridiculous to me in a game with a 500 page rulebook.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 10:31 am: Edit

Jack,

In an absolute sense, I completely agree with you. You are 100% correct here.

In a practical sense, I think that ship sailed long, long ago, and it is what it is, and we got what we got, and I don't think anything is going to change that dynamic.

Yes, the Fed is a coin toss. But good players in the Fed can do well reasonably consistently (Ed Sluserak has been doing well in the Fed for a real long time, and isn't winning tournaments, but winning plenty of games and getting into the top 4 all the time, when that is a thing that happens; Paul S won in the Fed at Council of 5 a number of years back 'cause I had him in a tractor, was about to detonate him with plasma, and his last roll on his last small P3 volley rolled a 10, and he was about to resign when we noticed that I just didn't have any phasers left on my ship to protect that tractor...). But yeah, once in a while, it just wins with a R8 jackpot, and sometimes it just loses with a R8 miss, but usually, people don't fire at R8 (unless it is, like, on a flank shield of a plasma ship) as you are more likely to lose than you are to win there (as even 2 hits is usually a loss at that point). So the ship is *usually* playing for an advantageous R4 shot, or a R2 shot. At which point the game is much less of a "how did the coin toss land?" and much more of an actual game.

I don't think anything large is going to happen in the tournament any time soon. The Fed isn't gonna get replaced by a Fast Fed or anything. We got what we got. I mean, again, I agree with you. But also, here is where we are.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 11:37 am: Edit

If proposals are on the table for real, then this is my take:

1. LDR - Agree with Jack: Give it a 1 shot UIM like the bigger Lyran. Otherwise, it's fine. It's already over gunned. Also Paul Scott beat my Kzinti with it in 2008 to win fleet captain at Origins.

2. Lyran - nothing - agree with Jack.

3. Orion - nothing - BUT - I like the idea of a second CA size ship. I would like to see BOTH options available, assuming the CA (with no center warp double) does reasonably well in play test.

4. Klingon - nothing.

5. Gorn - nothing

6. TKR - nothing

7. FH - nothing

8. ISC - nothing

9. ATH - nothing

10. Neo - Agree with Jack. Too much change to this ship could be dangerous. Changing FH P1 to FX and this will be a very good ship would help a lot. Simplest best change to any ship we could make IMHO.

11. Andro- Disagree with Jack about Keep nerfed and forget. One of two things should happen: 1) Remove the Andro, period. Having a nerfed ship in the field is pointless. It's perfectly reasonable to say the Andro just doesn't work in tourney due to tech mismatch, remove it, and say done. In the alternative, it needs more firepower. Nine ph-2 might be excessive. I would start with 2 FH and play test it. Otherwise, remove it.

12. Hydran - nothing

13. Shark - Agree with Jack - Remove 1 FX p3.

15. Kzinti - nothing. Sad, really, because it under performs against the other D&D ships. It's 1-shot wonder 12 drone wave is too easy to overcome. However, giving the Zin anything else would probably make it too powerful. If I would play with this ship at *all* I would play test the effect of allowing 4*Type IV drones instead of 3.

16. Wyn Aux - Disagree with Jack's suggestion to give it +2 on first HET. The AUX is a monster against several ships of the field, and giving it a realistic HET chance would make extremely difficult battles for the Fed (and a few others) almost unwinnable. Honestly, I would leave the AUX alone.

17. KE - I would remove this ship from the tourney field. The Pl-R is fun, but games against this ship tend to go looooooooooooong because of the launch and cloak tactics it excels at. I hate facing this ship for this very reason, regardless of its RPS status.

18. Selt - I agree that 12 p1's is excessive - as Peter pointed out, it was difficult to beat at 10. However, the ship is too weak, in part due to the PC problem already pointed out. Nevertheless, I would add 2*ph-3 (one to each side), play test, and see how that works.

19. Jindarian- The ship should be removed from the field. It's tech just doesn't work. However, If a fix is attempted, I would start by adding 2*ph-1 360 and see if that helps in play test.

20. The Fed. This one sticks in my craw. I've heard all about how "this ship has sailed" - which is ironic because that's what has happened. It's simply an overall under performer against way too many ships - from a tournament long perspective - regardless of it's overall statistics looked at only from a single game perspective. It has too many very bad RPS matchups.

It's sad that the iconic ship of the game is looked down on by the vast majority of veteran players as being a lower-tier ship to play in the tournament. While I don't want the ship to dominate either, it can't really compete adequately in an ace environment in the current field (my recent victory over Moose being more of a fluke due to his maneuver error on turn 2).

Yes, the problem is the variability of the photon. So that's what has to be addressed.

If the TCF is DOA, then try *something* to make the Fed a viable performer, and to prevent it from winning or losing at the at lucky R8 shot.

I like Jack's idea of giving Fed TCC options and then playtesting it. Here's my take on that idea:

Historically, the Fed deployed different weapons arrays on its two fronts during the general war. Against the Klingons it deployed "G" designated ships, adding drones. Against the Romulans it deployed "L" designated ships, adding plasma. It also deployed all-photon varieties in all theaters.

In fact, one of the great things about playing Fed in regular SFB is the depth of variability of hulls available.

Therefore, the TCC is given three configurations which are not optional - but vary depending on which ship the TCC faces.

Against Klingon, Kzinti, and WYN (GBS and AUX): Replace 2*photon with 2*B-rack. It may replace 2*Type-1 with 1*Type-IV drone *four* times instead of 2. Single drone control. The Fed player may also adjust the load out of the G rack to any legal configuration of drones and ADDs. No reloads of any kind. No fast drones. It may take drones out of the drone racks and load 1 scatter pack at the beginning of the game.

Against Romulan (all 3), Gorn, and ISC: Replace 2*photon with 2*plasma-F. The G rack may hold any legal loadout of drones and ADDs. The Fed may replace 2*Type I with 1*Type IV drone up to one time. No scatterpack.

Against all other ships of the field: Play the 4-photon vanilla TCC, with the normal limits on the G rack (2*Type I, 4*ADD, no type IV).


If that is too much, then allow the Fed player to pick one configuration and play the whole tournament in that configuration.

Or, here's another change: Replace 2*photon with 2*ph-1. Add 2*Warp boxes (40 power in all). Play against all comers.

SOMETHING to bring the Fed up from the bottom tier.

I, for one, would be willing to help play test any of these ideas (or others).

That's my 57 quatloos...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 11:50 am: Edit

A thought on the Seltorian from someone who does not play tournament SFB; so take this with a few grains of salt...

The minimum interval between shots for the PC is 12 impulses at standard tech. But this interval is reduced to 8 impulses for X-tech Selts. And at least in "standard" SFB that does make a difference. Would it help balance the Selt for tournament play to reduce the interval to 8 impulses (but, obviously, not include any other X-upgrades)?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Some addendums to my above proposals:

Andro: That's add +2 ph-2 (8 in all) and see if that works. Alternatively, consider eliminating rather than trying to balance.

Fed: For the TCCG version, the two type B drone racks are still hit on photon hits (the G rack is hit on drone as usual). Otherwise, it will lose its two needed photons too fast.

-T

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 03:02 pm: Edit

How many here knows the TFH is the Commanders edition ship?
I'd like to see it converted to Captains edition.
The changes are quite small. +1 FHull and One Imp is changed to APR. IIRC thats all.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Personally - I think the TFH is very average. It's ok, we need average.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Alan wrote:
>>Would it help balance the Selt for tournament play to reduce the interval to 8 impulses>>

I mean, it would help, but probably not so much as to make the ship "good".

The PC is always 1 worse than a disruptor, i.e. it is always doing less damage or has a worse to hit roll in all brackets. On the upside, if you only ever fire it once per turn as an overload, it only costs 3 power (or 1.5 to hold). Which is something, but not enough.

Even with an 8 impulse delay, if you fire it twice in a turn, you are going to be spending 5 power (2+3) to fire a sub optimal shot at medium range (1-3 to hit for 2 damage?) as you approach, and then hopefully the guns will be cleared to make a second OL shot at close range, at probably a different sheild, against an opponent who is likely shooting you for more damage and following up with secondary weapons.

The most successful I have seen a Selt be was when Ken Lin was flying it at Origins at one of the last bigish tournaments; I think he came in second? He killed me along the way ('cause I was foolishly going too fast to HET when I really needed to HET, which was an error I should have seen to avoid); he never fired the PCs twice. He just went really fast all the time with PC capacitors only ever with 3 power in them, and only ever fired the one OL shot.

The 12 impulse over the turn break is extremely bad for the ship (as every game devolves into a close range knife fight at some point). The 12 impulse break between 2 shots on a given turn is largely irrelevant, as firing it twice in a given turn is largely a waste of energy[*].

I think, largely, the big issue with the Selt is it just isn't capable of doing enough damage reliably to really threaten an opponent like, say, the Fed or Hydran (or even Lyran) do, and doesn't have any of the secondary advantages that, like, the Klingon or Shark or Kzinti have. Adding more SCs ups its reliance on dice and power to reload. Any ship with 10xP1s is, apparently, insane. I dunno what a good way to make it work is.

Just like the Feds, Selts work just fine in groups on open maps, where the power of averages works to their strengths. But as a duelist on a closed map, they are really just maximizing their weaknesses.

[*] I have played the Selt a bunch in my life, as I was really trying to make it work for a while. A few times, I *did* successfully benefit from a second, late turn PC shot to hit, like, a shuttle or maybe to a small second lucky volley of internals. But these instances are very few and far between.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 04:24 pm: Edit

1. LDR - Give it a 1 shot UIM like the bigger Lyran. Make FA p1 FX

2. Lyran - nothing.

3. Orion -

4. Klingon - nothing.

5. Gorn - nothing

6. TKR - nothing

7. FH - nothing

8. ISC - nothing

9. ATH – add 1 power or 2

10. Neo - Changing FH P1 to FX

11. Andro- no idea – never played it.

12. Hydran – add p1

13. Shark - Remove 1 FX p3.

15. Kzinti - allowing 4*Type IV drones instead of 3.

16. Wyn Aux – give the win options more flexability

17. KE – 2 of the front p1 make 360 or make all 4 p1 fx

18. Selt – no idea

19. Jindarian- no idea

20. The Fed. The drone rack has been helpful, I like it the way it is. Out of 18+ ships it’s the one that can win on a gamble. Also add a 2nd fast fed with 2 photons and the way it was describe above

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 04:27 pm: Edit

The Orion should have some form of cooling on the engines.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Selt. 2 FA+R and 2 FA+L PC's. Maybe it can play a keep away game firing PC's out the 3/5 and maybe actually fire them more than once a turn. Give it 2 shuttle bays.

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I am attempting to watch a sapphire match in Demo mode, is that possible?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 08:22 pm: Edit

So the FEDs problem is no one wants to lose to a Photon jackpot. Photon roulette as it is called. just run into range 8 and fire roll good win roll bad lose.

Well, I have watched many a game were the Fed chases around the board. (mostly vs hellbore and plasma ships) For 3 are more turns trying to get that good photon shot. That takes skill to get that position for that shot. As the Feds shields get slowly eroded away. Skill for the other player to avoid that shot. Sometimes a player takes the chance the FED will miss.

You think the FED is unbalanced because of luck. Most FED players I see only take the range 8 shot out of desperation.

yeah the knights in the middle ages outlawed Crossbows. yeah a peasant could kill a knight.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 08:54 pm: Edit

>>I am attempting to watch a sapphire match in Demo mode, is that possible?>>

Yeah, you should be able to, unless the room is closed/lockled.

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 09:31 pm: Edit

How?

Assuming the current match is still going.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 09:34 pm: Edit

It is still going on, I can tell you that much.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 09:41 pm: Edit

BS (KLI) v. Sir_CatWhoEatsPhotons (FED) has been rescheduled to Tuesday, 9/3/24 at 7:00 p.m. Central (on account of real life issues on my part).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 09:53 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

You think the FED is unbalanced because of luck. Most FED players I see only take the range 8 shot out of desperation.

---

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Nk Results Ace-v-Ace

Rank Ship Appearance Games Win-Loss Win % Win-Loss Equal Players Equal Players
1. WBS 0.08 336 183-153 0.42 180-156 0.54 0.03
2. ZIN 0.07 303 154-149 0.50 151-152 0.54 0.03
3. KLI 0.10 441 245-196 0.56 242-199 0.53 0.02
4. ISC 0.07 290 149-141 0.54 148-142 0.53 0.03
5. AND 0.01 44 26-18 0.56 26-18 0.52 0.06
6. GRN 0.09 376 192-184 0.52 190-186 0.52 0.03
7. WAX 0.08 328 164-164 0.49 161-167 0.51 0.03
8. HYD 0.10 439 226-213 0.51 224-215 0.51 0.02
9. ORI 0.07 302 155-147 0.50 155-147 0.51 0.03
10. THA 0.05 214 121-93 0.48 122-92 0.50 0.03
11. RFH 0.07 285 142-143 0.40 144-141 0.47 0.03
12. LYR 0.07 294 132-162 0.45 133-161 0.47 0.03
13. SEL 0.02 78 37-41 0.43 39-39 0.46 0.05
14. FED 0.05 211 92-119 0.44 92-119 0.45 0.03
15. RKE 0.02 68 29-39 0.40 30-38 0.44 0.05
16. RKR 0.03 141 53-88 0.38 55-86 0.43 0.04
17. THN 0.02 89 33-56 0.34 37-52 0.41 0.05
18. LDR 0.03 127 50-77 0.36 54-73 0.40 0.04

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 10:14 pm: Edit

There's hard data. The iconic FED TCC is number 14 out of 18.

In reality, that includes pre-nerfed Andro stats. Nowadays the the Andro would be #18, pushing the Fed to number 13.

Still bottom tier.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 10:16 pm: Edit

NK results all players included (Ace and Non-Ace)

Rank Ship Appearance Games Win-Loss Win % Win-Loss Equal Players Equal Players
1. WBS 0.07 1329 726-603 0.55 722-607 0.57 0.02
2. ZIN 0.08 1544 788-756 0.51 786-758 0.56 0.01
3. HYD 0.09 1741 977-764 0.56 974-767 0.55 0.01
4. WAX 0.07 1299 720-579 0.55 718-581 0.54 0.02
5. ISC 0.07 1249 670-579 0.54 669-580 0.53 0.02
6. GRN 0.08 1614 825-789 0.51 824-790 0.53 0.01
7. KLI 0.10 1972 990-982 0.50 988-984 0.52 0.01
8. RKR 0.04 863 402-461 0.47 402-461 0.50 0.02
9. ORI 0.06 1169 602-567 0.52 602-567 0.49 0.02
10. RFH 0.06 1079 523-556 0.48 524-555 0.46 0.02
11. AND 0.01 234 114-120 0.48 115-119 0.46 0.04
12. SEL 0.02 392 181-211 0.46 182-210 0.45 0.03
13. RKE 0.02 381 157-224 0.40 158-223 0.44 0.03
14. FED 0.07 1363 544-819 0.40 545-818 0.44 0.02
15. LYR 0.06 1207 550-657 0.46 552-655 0.43 0.02
16. THA 0.04 746 370-376 0.49 372-374 0.40 0.02
17. LDR 0.03 569 258-311 0.46 261-308 0.39 0.02
18. THN 0.02 429 193-236 0.45 196-233 0.39 0.03

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 27, 2024 - 07:31 am: Edit

Steven wrote:
>>How?

Assuming the current match is still going.>>

Download SFBOL (from SFBOL website). Log in as demo (or guest or whatever). Look for "game rooms" (there is a floating window). Click on the game that looks like the game you want to view. It should just open up.

It isn't impossible that a given game room is locked to visitors, in which case, you can't get in. If you get in a room, and the game hasn't started yet, hop out until it starts, as otherwise, it might get weird when the actual player gets there.