Personally, I can see the Romulans using a Diplomatic ship, I see their treaty's being as trust worthy as Hitler's, but I can see them using Diplomatic units to gain short term advantages.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 15, 2024 - 04:53 pm: Edit

ADM:

That is what I assume JGA originally meant.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 16, 2024 - 08:10 am: Edit

The real question is why not just use a regular warship? Replace the "extra 10 BPs" with "diplomatic" staff...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 16, 2024 - 11:32 am: Edit

SPP,

Thank you for the reminder, as regards the tractor beams.

In that case, the only proposed change to the cargo module would be to replace Cargo with C Hull; the number of admin shuttle boxes would be the same.

In some cases, perhaps a Romulan diplomat might be assigned a custom heavy transport shuttle - though nothing quite as fancy as the Gig (or Admiral's Gig) a high-ranking Iridani noble can make use of.

Although, since the Romulans would learn about the existence of the Iridani in Y219 (once word spreads about the return of the GSX Sakharov to the Alpha Octant), no doubt some Great House scion with more money than sense would yearn for an equivalent craft with which to impress... or to match their outsized ego, perhaps.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, January 16, 2024 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Wasn't there a small article in Captain's Log describing how to create diplomatic cruisers for other empires? Not in the CL index file so I haven't found it. As I recall, it is authored by SPP.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Wednesday, January 17, 2024 - 10:13 am: Edit

Starsabre: that is "Diplomatic Cruiser Conversions" on p 118 of CL#51, and was indeed drafted by SPP.

There is also "The Case For Diplomatic Gunboats" on p 71 of CL#52.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, January 17, 2024 - 04:49 pm: Edit

While this is quite far from my original idea (the "Hawk/Dove" dichotomy, tentatively for a Stellar Shadows Journal idea), the Skyhawk Diplomatic Variant has bounced around in my head.

Most, if not all, of the Skyhawk modules have ten boxes. With that in mind, what about one with...

... FOUR boxes of Shuttles. One would be the formal "Diplomat Yacht," and one could be an escorting fighter.
... FOUR boxes of "Hull" designated as a sort of "Mobile Embassy."
... TWO boxes of Cargo; these represent gifts (or perhaps certain emergency response supplies) for the empire being visited.

Naturally, something like this can be done with most any HDW as well, but with the Skyhawk, it'd be a quicker and easier conversion?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 17, 2024 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:
Well you are overlooking the economic cost of keeping all those diplomatic modules in stock for any give SkyHawk to pull into a base to swap out modules to carry one, which figuratively increases the cost (Economic BPV of every SkyHawk in the empire. How many of these will you need lying around just so your diplomats do not have to ride around in a SkyHawk-A module?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, January 17, 2024 - 07:26 pm: Edit

SPP:

Well, given that my original idea was for a completely different ship (perhaps based on the Freight Eagle?), it's not surprising that I overlooked some thing(s).

How many "Diplomatic Modules" are there likely to be? Well, if I were to try guessing, they'd only have a very small number. Tentative thoughts suggest perhaps one (each) to the Klingon and Lyran capitals, plus perhaps one or two others for lower level missions to independent planets.

Would there be one on a mission to any of the five ISC capitals? Again, I don't know; perhaps with the "High Ideals of Pacifism" that the ISC used to declare their "Police Action" across the sector, perhaps a lesser armed vessel might be used.


With regards to the economic cost of having a diplomatic ship as a variant of the SkyHawk is that if the ship isn't being used for "Diplomatic Purposes," then like every other SkyHawk, she'll be configured for another of the myriad of roles the ship performs. If a "Diplomatic Mission" DOES pop up, she'd have her module swapped out in a day or three and be off.

Again, though, using the SkyHawk really doesn't fit the "Hawk-and-Dove" dichotomy/satire that was at the core of the idea behind this thread.


Thinking more about using a virtually unarmed ship for taking ambassadors to the "Peaceful" ISC, it does occur to me (now) that there are luxury transport versions of the Armed Priority Transport and the Free Trader.

Either one of those, or perhaps even a Luxury Liner with larger warp engines (perhaps like those on the Armed Freighters?) would fulfil the mission for the original proposal for this "Dove," so perhaps this whole idea, while fun, really is pretty superfluous...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 06:51 am: Edit

Well, figuring that the only bases that have room to store SkyHawk Diplomatic modules would almost have to be Star Bases, that puts the number at equal to the actual number of Star Bases in service at the time such Diplomatic modules YIS date.

While it might be nice if Battle Stations could handle a module change, i just do not remember if that is an ability that BTS have.

What is the number of Romulan Star Bases at the start of the General War? 5?

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 07:34 am: Edit

I'd guess ONE module at the Capital. Diplomats get their instructions from the Emperor and are sent forth. And again, I'd use a Seahawk. Small. And you;d escort it with a combat ship.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Circling back to my idea above... If you pair the fact that all of the Romulan ships have cloaks as SOP, then when you swap in a Diplo module (which does seem a good compromise given the available options, perhaps have the "extra emissions" explained away similar to the RF-reflector pods installed on F-35s and other radar-stealthy aircraft are currently. Again, the idea would be to put up so large of a sensor target that one or two bodyguard ships could travel in close escort with the Diplomats without being detected.

The idea of navigational control is moot as well as the source return could encode nav data down to the bodyguard ships inside the 'Diplomat field' for lack of a better term.

In any case, no matter how one goes about this cosmic legerdemain, the ships tucked under the waistcoat of the Diplomats should be as near an echo of the Diplomat's ships as can be arranged in case of a rare skin-paint.

Its an interesting idea. Its impossible for a number of reasons (can the Romulans afford two or three hulls out of service when Diplomats are needed to travel Plenipotentiary?) but its fun to play around sometimes and so here I go on a tangent of impossibilities.

With a Skyhawk-Diplomat module to be purpose built for the mission and unlikely to be stocked in any given remote logistics location... That said, with what amounts to two specialized modules, the ability to fast-track the module pairs to where local ships could accommodate them is really leaning into the Romulan modularity.

For the Diplomat, start with an A module for a foundation and lets make a few changes.

First swap two of the shuttles for a double-spaced overbuilt luxury Diplo-Yacht (no diplomat would dare ride in a ford focus when they can get into a beast of a BMW!).

Next replace two of the tractor boxes with two hull boxes for the diplomatic quarters and mess.

Third, replace one battery with a Flag Bridge in case the Diplomat is bored and wants to watch the latest and greatest holovid series on the best hardware in the fleet, keep tabs on the military side or things, or impress someone with simulated victories.

Fourth, bend the frames in a few places to squeeze in a single bonus cargo box to allow for the Diplomats to have all of the exotic foods and such they need for their swanky parties and that you don't want the common sailors of the ships to have access to. Follow this up by adapting the attachment points for a R4.28A half-weight cargo pod like the Skyhawk-H can carry (and making note of if it will cover the 360 phasers) to permit the carriage of 'relief supplies'.

That will do well for the Diplo module, but what about a covert Diplo escort.... If your having to build each module by itself, and haul it around to where its needed, then you want to make sure that its guardian(s) are similarly bespoke otherwise your military makes sense and that's a crime against nature.

For the dedicated COVERT escort, start with a Escort module (yes, I realize this will require special dispensation from the normal rules about using escorts without carriers but since this is already impossible, it can't be any harder!).

Strip the deck crews, ready racks, and any supplies for fighters, but leave the plas-D stockpiles alone.

Replace one tractor beam with one barracks box and the marines to go with it.

Swap one of the shuttles for a GAS (in case the Diplomat has a craving for pizza on Black Friday).

Swap one of the shuttles for a cloaked decoy.

And that's it other than installing specialized software to 'slave' their movement to the Diplomat's ship based on encoded instructions in the Diplomat's ships field.

Prepare to stay stacked up in the same hex as the ship it is guarding until the situation requires the deception to be abandoned. As long as the escort is in the same hex as the Diplomat, it's undetectable, once it leaves, it is detected normally.

Now we are cooking with gas... For a playtest, I'm thinking have the Diplomat ship in the center of the map (or either of the two places where four panels meet) at any speed the cloaked escort can maintain cloaked, and WS-I, while the cloaked escort is matched speeds with the Diplomat and WS-II and under cloak, an OVERT escorting Skyhawk-A is within 8 hexes any speed and WS-II. An optional second COVERT Skyhawk-A might be included as well as an Ad-hoc but under the same rules, stay in the same hex to keep from being detected.

The OpFor should be around 320-350 points or so for an even fight or around 240-280 for a 'rigged' fight (add around 150 BPV to either group if a second Skyhawk-A is used), and enter the map within 8 hexes of a fixed hex chosen by the attacker, any speed and WS-III.

What you end up with amounts to a 'manned' cloaked decoy that can pop up and surprise the enemy once. Even if the Diplomat's ship never cloaks.

Might be a fun little pickup for a group with both experienced cloakers and raiders.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Jeff Guthridge: I said before, and I will repeat it, the tractor emitters (labeled TRAC) on the SkyHawk hull are NOT part of the module. They are part of the ship. Meaning you cannot modify them and retain the module as something that is slapped onto a SkyHawk. In modifying them you have an entirely new ship with new modules, which I doubt much the Romulans can afford. (Back ground says the have sunk just about their entire economy to build the Hawks which includes the Condors, and may explain why they kept older Eagles and borrowed Klingon Kestrels in their fleet.) Second, I am not sure you can keep the Hidden escorts. It seems you are proposing a new rule, it is known in the rule book that you can have one ship pay. the cloaking cost for a neighbor, but the ships cannot move very fast (if memory serves).

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 03:35 pm: Edit

I see, at most a modified Skyhawk, or Sparrowhawk module, Escorts seem extremely unlikely, form the history, we only know of three times that the Romulans were serious about diplomacy, Smarba, Olsen's Reach, and Operation Unity. that does not indicate that many of these would be made, maybe three, one to the Klingons, one to the Lyrans, and a spare, as far away as the Lyrans are, that one may not be made.

Base Skyhawk module A; Swap one shuttle for Flag, to be the Diplomatic quarters with special com systems etc, swap two shuttle boxes for the yacht thing, last shuttle is a GAS.

Sparrowhawk base module L; One module only, the other can be an A, K, or L, if carefully balanced, this may be possible, if not then the standard pair, the shuttle bay on the second one are two GAS shuttles, FHull is Barracks. Turn the F Hull into cargo for diplomatic stores, Swap the APR, and Btty for a two space shuttle for the yacht thing. Swap one shuttle for a GAS, if single module.

I suspect that once Gunboats arrive the yacht will disappear as they age out of being useful.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Oh I agree its not really possible, I was actually just playing around what could be done without much major changes to test the theory.

I was unaware of the Tractor issues, and did not find a reasonably concise write up of the rules in one location within my collection of books. So the modest changes I thought up end up not being workable in and of themselves. The notion was to confine all 'edits' to the part of the ship housed in the module, even if I exceeded that intent in my ignorance.

It was a 'thought experiment' nothing more.

I knew the Romulan economics were such that they don't have enough of any of the fancy toys they have developed.

As for the mechanics of it, I would have the cloaked escort(s) pay the normal price to cloak, and the Diplomat's ship pay half that more or less to emit a field that made sure that any sensor return in that hex would lock onto the Diplomat's ship (similar in result but not in function to a Scout or SWAC going wild, though we are talking sensor lock on data not warhead targeting) the Diplomat's ship is not paying anything to 'help' the cloaked ships cloak, but instead are jamming the area of space next to their ship with all of the signal traces that give away the presence of a cloaked ship... To draw parallels it would be like trying to look at a dim bulb in your spotting scope but the bulb in question is occluded by a massively bright reflection of sunlight.

In any case, it was just a Morning's diversion while I was waiting on my truck to be repaired.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 06:36 pm: Edit

For those interested, the SkyHawk-A is in CL#31, pg18-21. The module itself is only four decks and is the shuttle bay and the 360 phasers ...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 08:12 pm: Edit

In terms of conversion costs, there is an ongoing discussion over on the Federation and Empire side of the BBS, in terms of what the next update to the "core" F&E rulebook might allow for the swapping of SparrowHawk and SkyHawk modules.

While the Federation does not always use its VIP transport frigates to carry actual VIPs, there are enough other missions to keep them busy when this is not being done: to include ferrying troops to endangered colony planets, or perhaps to transport replacement personnel to (or from) a starbase. Perhaps the Romulans could do the same here.

Plus, just as the Federation VIP transport frigate can carry the same pod weights as their priority transport frigate, perhaps the proposed SkyHawk VIP module could retain the SkyHawk cargo module's ability to carry a SkyHawk cargo pack?

Since the SeaHawk frigate is a non-modular design, I would suggest sticking with the SkyHawk as the smallest ship in the Hawk series that would be worth considering for this role.

Aside from Captain's Log #31, the deck plans for the SkyHawk-A can also be found in Prime Directive Romulans.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Thursday, January 18, 2024 - 11:50 pm: Edit

I suppose that if you wanted to use up some old 'Eagle" series hulls (1st gen.), an obvious candidate would be a Turkey Vulture.
It's a large, impressively sized hull, plenty of room for a diplomat and their entourage, guards, meeting rooms, etc., yet isn't really that much of a military threat, and virtually worthless (otherwise) to the Empire...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, January 19, 2024 - 12:15 am: Edit

Mike, when I first "Proposed" () the "Dove," it was exactly with those thoughts in mind; not much of a military threat (i.e.: "Hawk/Dove") and virtually worthless (otherwise) to the Empire.

Thank you for putting it clearly.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 21, 2024 - 12:31 pm: Edit

After looking over the rules for diplomatic ships [(540.14)] in F&E Strategic Operations, and after clarifying an SIT-related question elsewhere on the BBS, I wanted to add a few thoughts.

So far as Federation and Empire is concerned, there are no specific diplomatic ships in that game system other than the bespoke Klingon diplomatic cruisers. Further, there is no distinction between the Federation FFT and FFP in that game system; the SIT line entry for the FFT is good for both (as in, both are considered to be functionally equivalent). In other words, if a Fed player wishes to use a Fed FFT counter to transport a diplomatic team, and say that the ship being used is in fact an FFP, F&E does not care either way.

However, there are certain limitations imposed on diplomatic ships. Again with the exception of Klingon diplomatic cruisers, a diplomatic ship must have attack and defence factors lower than six, if it wishes to use the strategic movement nodes of allied or neutral empires with no cost to either empire, according to (540.142). Enemy empires, of course, must give permission for a diplomatic ship to use its strategic movement network - but if such permission is given (say, if both sides are looking to sign a peace treaty in order to end the current war), no cost to either side's strategic movement network is paid either.

So, if one assumes that the proposed VIP transport SkyHawk module would be functionally equivalent to the pre-existing cargo transport module SkyHawk, as marked on the Romulan SIT, this would be fine.

However, for an Eagle series VIP transport, neither the Freight Eagle nor Queen Freight Eagle - nor any larger hull, for that matter - would be an option, as they have attack and/or defence factors of 6 or more. Which is no real issue prior to the Treaty of Smarba in the standard timeline, but could be a problem over in any "Mapsheet P" and/or "Shadow of the Eagle" timelines.

But then, it is possible that the Romulans and Paravians might simply pay the strategic movement cost required to move a diplomatic team aboard a would-be "VIP Eagle" across their respective logistical networks, as part of the cost of doing business in the face of hostile Gorn and ISC opposition.

On a side note: for any "Mapsheet P" Paravian diplomats being sent to Romulus in exchange, one could also consider a would-be VIP transport frigate variant of the Paravian frigate transport in SFB Module C6, and then use the pre-existing SIT entry for the Paravian FFT to handle it in F&E terms. (Actually, I could see the historical Paravians of Omega doing the same, when they signed a secret treaty with the silicate Trobrin Empire in Y211.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 21, 2024 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Gary, I think that your analysis is a good effort.

But for those among us who aspire to “think outside of the box”, it seems occurs to me that there is another option available.

The Federation Express Corporation does operate its courier service before, during and after the General War.

What if the greedy Capitalist Federation entrepreneurs over at Federation Express offered to lease ships and crews for a VERY FAST light courier ship?

Long stated as “the Fastest” in known space, the Federation Express Corporation are ALWAYS looking for new revenue streams… in fact, such a service might even be an additional function of the Sales and Services department of the FedExCo.

Heck I might even submit an addendum to the Fed Express article I wrote explaining that originally intended to open hub network nodes at new Federation of Planets Associated (minor or major) worlds, that each new member world would receive a complimentary lease of a Federation Courier ship for diplomatic or ceremonial duties, in addition to the standard Federation courier services contract.

The passenger quarters (including food services) would be designated a “Diplomatic Enclave” on a par with the Embassy located on other worlds.

For most other Empires, the opportunity for fast transit of ships that could include cargo hold sized “diplomatic pouches” that naturally breeze through normal customs inspections would absolutely have to be attractive considering the huge cost of building, maintaining and staffing an indigenous diplomatic ship.

During Peacetime, the Federation Express Courier Routes extended far beyond the Federation borders, including services to Kzinti, and Klingon capitals. During the General War, the Routes included Tholian Holdfast.

Heck, it might even appeal to the Klingon spymasters to use the Federation Express Couriers to transport various Spymasters, spys,and provide spy services using Federation Express Courier company subsidized vessels.

Oh, the Irony!

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Sunday, January 21, 2024 - 05:44 pm: Edit

...or, you know, you could just go with the aforementioned conversion guidelines in CL#51.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, January 14, 2025 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Reading a post above I recalled one of the fun things flying Romylans: Nuclear Space Mines. Sadly that was from before I started play Tournament games