As seen in both Star Fleet Battles Module C6 and in Module R4J, there are a number of "Lost Empire" and/or "Shadow of the Eagle" alternate timelines currently in print.

These timelines offer different means by which the Paravians, the Carnivons, a set of "early warp" Romulans, and/or an "early" activation for the ISC are made to exist in the "modern" era of the Alpha Octant.

Most of these timelines hinge on a key "inflection point", at which the course of history diverges from that seen in the historical SFU timeline. Perhaps the most dramatic example of this to date was on ancient Vulcan; with Surak dying before he was able to convince a critical mass of Vulcans to pursue the path of logic and peace, the path was opened for the emergence of a "Reflection Universe" in which the place of the historical Federation is held by the warlike Federal Imperium.

Beyond this, there is the prospect of a would-be "Module C6R", which might offer new ships - and, perhaps new alternate timelines? - for the Paravians and Carnivons.

Meanwhile, there has been talk of a would-be "Module C7" which could bring the "playtest" Borak and Peladine from Module E3 and Module E4 respectively up to formal publication status.

While I have speculated on an alternate timeline option for the Borak elsewhere on the BBS, I was thinking of what manner of "inflection point" might allow several of these "lost" and/or "forgotten" empires to exist all at once.

For this, my thoughts of late have turned over to the "off-map" Delta Sector, and to the home world of the Peladine Republic.

-----

In the historical timeline, the Peladine home world hosted two sapient species, the raccoon-like Ranel and the dolphin-like Phelen. After struggling through a series of internal and cross-species conflicts, both species turned instead towards establishing a collaborative Republic.

However, while they developed impulse and warp travel at relatively early dates by the standards of the "western" Alpha Octant empires, a combination of rigorous population control measures and highly efficient recycling technologies kept them from expanding beyond their star system.

Tragically, by the time they did decide to colonize new star systems; it was too late to make this happen: this was pre-empted by an invasion of their home system by the Lyran Star Empire. Thus, aside from a few individuals kept in Lyran zoos, or a handful of exiles in other places (such as inside the WYN Cluster), the Peladine are largely confined to their home planet as subjects of the Lyran Far Stars Duchy.

-----

In this alternate setup, however, I propose that the "inflection point" lead to a much earlier expansion into space by the Ranel and Phelen - across the "off-map" territories that historically were owned by the Far Stars Duke (and by most of his vassal Counts), to include those that were historically leased to the Klingons for their own exploration and colonization efforts. (Which, in Prime Directive terms, might lead to the humanoid Ytilians becoming a Peladine associate member species, rather than a Klingon subject species.)

Thus, by the time the Lyrans expand to the western edge of the Federation and Empire hex map, any attempts at further expansion in that direction would be blocked.

This would begin to trigger a number of other changes in turn. With the emergence of the Carnivons rimward of Lyran space, a far-reaching restructuring of the Lyran feudal setup might be on the cards - to an even greater extent to that shown on the "Mapsheet C1" previewed for F&E in Captain's Log #51. With a more compact set of borders, and the potential for active hostilities on all four of them, there'd be fewer provinces per duchy; more active fortifications to install (not least to secure an "active" Peladine border); and fewer resources to pay for them - especially if the Dark Star County were to later re-brand to the Lyran Democratic Republic as it did historically. And that's not even accounting for any Lyran "civil wars" to cause trouble along the way...

One consequence of this might be that, without an "open" border to expand into, there'd be more sustained tensions along the Lyran-Klingon border. Indeed, with the need for at least one "quiet" border, perhaps it might also lead to a Lyran collaboration with the Hydrans.

Therefore, by the time the Klingons invade the Hydran Kingdom in Y84, there is less of an opportunity (or motive) for the Lyrans to seize portions of Hydran space - and, perhaps, fewer Klingon ships that could be assigned to attack the Hydrans, since more of them would be needed to keep the Lyrans at bay.

This might yet lead to a loss of several Hydran provinces - possibly including the major industrial world of Hydraxaport (in F&E hex 0718) - but, crucially, would enable the Hydrans to just manage to keep the Klingons from conquering the home world itself.

Historically, the loss of Hydrax sparked a severe case of paranoia towards the Borak amidst the Hydran exiles in the Old Colonies, which drove them to "deal with" the Borak fleet before the latter could pose any sort of problem. Here, however, there might not be quite as much paranoia - and, in any case, the Hydran fleet would still be committed desperately to holding on to their capital.

So, to lean into the concept from another thread as linked to above, I'd suggest that the Hydrans would go in a different direction, by establishing the Hydran/Borak Commonwealth. With this, any attempt to push the Klingon back to the pre-war borders, or even to keep even a peaceful Lyran border "honest", would involve task forces of Hydran and Borak ships and support units going forward.

Meanwhile, the Klingons might not find themselves establishing terms with the Lyrans - nor, for that matter, with the hostile Kzintis. Instead, perhaps their focus might turn to Carnivon space. Through a combination of diplomatic skill and economic inducement, they might succeed both in supporting Greycoat Lothbog's rise to power at the head of a unified Carnivon state (which fell short historically, but which did happen in one of the "lost empire" timelines in Moduel C6), and in establishing a Klingon-Carnivon Coalition.

As a result, by the Middle Years era of the Alpha Octant, the Peladine and Carnivons exist as active powers, while the Borak operate as part of a Commonwealth with the Hydrans.

Indeed, depending on what is going on over on the other side of the Alpha Octant, there might be some sort of "Mapsheet P" setup going on as well - thus keeping the Paravians active also?

-----

In SFB terms, such a setup would lead to several changes, and require a range of new SSDs.

For the Peladine, there'd be plenty of use for a "full" set of Early Years ships, both to support their expansion and to keep the Lyrans at bay.

For the Lyrans, the big issue would be what - if any - fighters and bombers they would adopt. If there is no Coalition with the Klingon Empire, would they be obliged to design and build attack shuttles of their own? Might they turn to the Commonwealth instead? (Borak fighter-destroyers might make for an interesting option here.) Could the Orion Pirates be induced to smuggle samples of fighter and/or bomber designs from elsewhere in Alpha? Or, instead, might they simply go without such units at all, and skip directly to Interceptors and fast patrol ships?

Should the Carnivons align with the Klingons, and should the Klingons acquire mauler technology as they did historically, there'd be the option of deploying Carnivon mauler variants. Actually, if the Peladine were to join this Coalition, might they get maulers in turn? There'd be no Lyran maulers, however.

Actually, one side bonus here might be to give the Vudar and Borak the opportunity to fight one another - or, perhaps, for combined Vudar/Klingon squadrons to face Hydran/Borak opposition - should the Klingons choose to "activate" the Vudar at some later point in time...

On a side note, there'd be plenty of new weapons for the WYNs to make use of: from disruptor cannons to phaser cannons; from a much closer source of plasma torpedoes than is seen historically; and, depending on whether there is a "Mapsheet P" going on or not, some quantum wave torpedo launchers also?

-----

The F&E side of things would be more challenging.

In economic terms, the "off-map" provinces, planets, and colonies that historically accrue to the Lyrans - and those which are historically licenced to the Klingons - would instead belong to the Peladine.

But then, say if the Peladine were to join a Klingon-Carnivon Coalition. Getting across hostile Lyran space might be something of a problem. But, might there be some route connecting Peladine space to the "off-map" Carnivon Remote Ranges, under (207.294)? (if so, that could be a way for mauler technology to be passed over to the Peladine - or, perhaps, for a Peladine force to deploy to "on-map" Carnivon space.)

So, how about this:

On the one side, the Klingons, Carnivons, and Peladine form a "western" Coalition - one which might add the Vudar later on.

On the other side, the Kzintis and Lyrans are... well, by no means allied. But, they might operate as de facto co-belligerents, under a modified set of the provisional "uneasy coalition" rules offered in CL51 under (6HW.23).

However, the Lyrans would align more formally with the Commonwealth, which might lead to the export of Hydran and/or Borak fighter designs for use by the Lyran navy. While the LDR, were it to emerge, might hew more closely to its parent realm, as suggested in the Altered Alliances scenario from Captain's Log #38.

Actually, it would be an interesting twist on things to have the Lyrans be the ones to "licence" access to "off-map" territory from the Commonwealth, were the Hydrans and Borak open to such an idea...

Speaking of licensing agreements, the Klingons here would sub-lease a portion of the Remote Ranges, but not "sub-sub-lease" portions of Peladine space in turn.

In any case, it's noted in the latest edition of GURPS Prime Directive that the Void in the Epsilon Sector of the galaxy has an extension which cuts across the habitable portions of the Delta Sector. Therefore, it would not be possible for "off-map" contact between the Commonwealth and the Peladine - just as the Old Colonies and Far Stars areas cannot interact historically.

-----

In short, by "activating" the Peladine at an earlier point in time, I propose the creation of an "inflection point" that would lead to an expanded set of options for the "lost" and/or "forgotten" empires in the same alternative timeline.

But, that's just one person's views. Are there any thoughts on whether or not this might be viable - or, if not, whether some other "inflection point" would work better here?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, March 08, 2025 - 01:45 pm: Edit

After taking a fresh look at the Module E3 SSD book, I wanted to dig a little deeper on the prospect of exporting certain Borak fighter and bomber designs to the Lyrans, in the event of a Lyran/Commonwealth alliance.

The "final" size-1 Borak superiority fighter, the FD-C, is armed with a pair of FA phaser-3s and an RX phaser-2. Were the Lyrans to fly "full" squadrons of these fighters, they might find use against Klingon, Carnivon, and Peladine fighters and seeking weapons. However, unless the Lyrans were to develop some sort of disruptor variant, they'd be less dangerous offensively against enemy warships.

In Borak use, FD-Cs are often flown in "mixed" squadrons alongside remote-controlled HK-D fighters; however, I'd be less convinced that the latter attack shuttle type would make sense for Lyran usage.

Size-2 fighters, as well as size-3 and size-4 bombers, in Borak use all follow a similar all-phaser template as the FD-C. As in, there is no larger equivalent to the HK-D. So, again, unless the Lyrans were to design a set of disruptor-armed variants, their use cases for these attrition units would not be overly different than those for the Borak themselves.

But then, by the time some of these larger attack shuttles enter service, the Lyrans would start to gain access to Interceptors and PFs. So there would be much less of an onus in pursuing would-be disruptor variants of "imported" heavy fighters and bombers. (Perhaps there would be fewer phaser variant PFs being built as a result?)

All told, given the heavy seeking weapon environments the Lyrans would face in this proposed timeline, I'd see the Borak fighter-destroyer as a viable, or at least functional, "import" - not least since, in an all-phaser setup, the carrier need not assign power to "arm" any of the fighters' weapons.

Any thoughts?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, March 09, 2025 - 12:02 pm: Edit

A couple of general points to keep in mind for Alternative Histories.

First, when making the History, it is critically important to remember that, for the most part, it must keep the non affected empire ships unchanged. So, when the Romulans get early warp, everyone else's ships are still exactly the same. The political alignment and even borders can change. But the ships have to be the same. You can swap things in and out (a Gorn DNE is actually made; Feds use PFs), but the published ships cannot change at all.

The reason is because the whole point is to focus on the main subject. When detailing Romulans with early warp, only Romulan ships are provided. If brand new Federation ships are also needed, then the project becomes infeasible. So focus only on the one fleet that is the subject of the History. All other ships have already be there. Bonus points if the affected empire can reuse as much as possible.

Second, the result has to be recognizable. Sure, political alliances can change, borders can move, empires can disappear. But the overall setting must still be recognizable. There must be a Federation of some sort. There probably needs to be a Klingon and a Romulan empire, too. The others are negotiable. But, if you do kill one (e.g. the Paravians/sunsnake eliminating the Gorns), the rest still needs to be recognizable and familiar. The point is to make changes that build on what is known, not clear the slate and just start from scratch.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 10, 2025 - 01:31 pm: Edit

It is indeed true that some of the alternate timelines I had in mind would include a new set of SSDs for the empire in question. For example: the proposed "Treaty of Circle Trigon" timeline in this thread, which would replace the Kestrel and Hawk Series ships with two series of hulls derived from "Mapsheet P" Paravian design templates.

Alternatively, there is at least one proposed timeline in which the question of new SSDs to potentially be added would not apply in the Alpha Octant directly. Rather, in this proposed setup, the issue would be how to handle things in Omega, or in the LMC, or in... wherever the Holdfast Sphere might have ended up instead of in Alpha.

All said, the above refer to new non-historical SSDs; as in, those which do not have a reason to exist in the "standard" timeline. By contrast, I would argue that, in the case of the "Mapsheet P" ISC, many of the "new" SSDs they might need would still exist historically, albeit only appearing in the wake of the Andromedan invasion of the Alpha Octant. However, any timelines in which "Mapsheet P" is made to exist - to include the two we have in print already - would impact how, and/or when, such units might (or might not) be available for use.

-----

In contrast to all of this, I would argue that, with a few exceptions, most of the SSD material needed to make the various "western" alternate timelines - to include those two offered for the "lost empire" Carnivons in Module C6 - already exist in some way, shape, or form.

Yes, I did mention that, in the case of an "early expansion" Peladine Republic, there might be a need for a range of Early Years ships for them to use. By contrast, the Borak and Carnivons each have their own W- and Y-era hulls in print already, though there is perhaps room for more to be added in a would-be "Module Y4". Perhaps some early Peladine ships could go there also?

In the "modern" era, however, only a handful of "new" designs might be required. I had requested a Carnivon DNE to be considered for a would-be "Module C6R", for example. Plus, while there is a Peladine mauler cruiser in Module E4, this proposed timeline would perhaps call for an SSD for a would-be Peladine mauler war cruiser, plus a couple of mauler types for the Carnivons to be offered also.

As for the WYNs, there might be scope for a "WYN-Carnivon" (or "WYN-Borak" or "WYN-Peladine") SSD or few.

Beyond this, however, there aren't a great many new SSDs - or, rather, new timeline-specific ones - that would be required here, beyond those (such as for, say, Carnivon first-generation X-ships) that are of use in any "lost empire" Carnivon timeline.

Indeed, while I did talk in my last post about what the Lyrans might do for fighters and bombers in lieu of Klingon attack shuttle designs, there are "stand-alone" fighter and bomber squadron SSDs already available for the Borak in Module E3. So, if one neded some kind of disruptor variant "Borak-type" fighter here, a single page or two of SSDs would be sufficient. But, if not, one could skip over such a topic entirely, and simply say that the Lyrans are obliged to use all-phaser "Borak-type" attack shuttles, and thus direct playtesters to make use of the Module E3 SSDs as and when required.

-----

All of this leaves the question of what kind of "political" changes would be required.

As I posted about recently in this thread, any timeline which makes use of "Mapsheet C1" - as previewed for Federation and Empire in Captain's Log #51 - would lead to some dramatic changes in the feudal structure of the Lyran Star Empire, and to the at-start Orders of Battle for the Lyran fleet. This would apply even more so here, with the added loss of the "off-map" Far Stars provinces and the need to build a set of border fortifications - and, perhaps, an additional "on-map" starbase, to replace the one they historically built in the "off-map" Far Stars province - in the direction of the Peladine Republic.

Indeed, since the Kzintis are technically short two provinces on "Mapsheet C1" relative to on the historical F&E hex map, they in turn might require a few adjustments, though perhaps not quite to the same extent as seen over in Lyran space.

A more drastic proposed change in this proposed timeline is to see the historical Hydran Kingdom and Borak Star League merge into a "hybrid" Hydran/Borak Commonwealth. Yet, given how interspersed the two species' colonies were in the Delta Sector historically, and given how amicable the relationship was between them prior to the first fall of Hydrax in Y87, I would well argue that the formation of a Commonwealth between them not be outside of the realm of possibility.

By contrast, the Borak of the "deception history", which had them be a stand-alone empire beyond the Hydran Old Colonies, cuts across this historical interspersion - and, furthermore, leaves the Borak as a more isolated faction, with less of an opportunity to get involved "on the map" relative to being deployed across Commonwealth space in this proposed timeline.

Speaking of being "off-map": the Peladine here might focus on trying to push into rimward Lyran space, so as to link up with the Carnivons and Klingons. Although, perhaps an "expeditionary fleet" could be stationed in Carnivon space, so as to give the Peladine at least one "on-map" fleet with which to operate actively.

-----

All told, however, I would say that one could still recognize most of the protagonists here, even if the matter of who is fighting whom is rather different.

The Klingons are still looking to expand at their rivals' expense, though exactly who said rivals are is somewhat changed. The Kzintis and Lyrans are still present and accounted for, though each has new enemies to fight. The Hydrans are also involved, though they now share their realm with the Borak. The WYN Cluster is still a major flashpoint; perhaps even more so, since there are now four empires, rather than three, vying for control over it. While the Federation looks on warily, to see whether or not these "western" wars are to one day spill over into their own territory.

Although, there is also the possibility of a "five-power war" variant which excluded the Borak and Peladine, yet which still pitted a Klingon-Carnivon Coalition against the Kzintis, Lyrans, and Hydrans. In which case, the Lyrans would at least get to keep the "off-map" Far Stars provinces for themselves - but would still need a new set of fighters to replace those of Klingon design. (There might not be Peladine or Borak starships, but perhaps the Lyrans would end up building attack shuttles that were "functionally equivalent" to either Peladine or Borak fighter designs. A convenient option, no?)

In short, should a future "Module C6R" and/or "Module C7" appear someday, and if the door was ajar for more alternate timelines to be added to their respective pages, might this proposed timeline be a viable option to consider?