This would be a PF built along the lines of the Fish Ship line of ships meant to be carried by the Orca-PFT and the Hammerhead PFT I proposed. I was tinking it would be more along the lines of the Lyran Bobcat, being primarily disruptor armed.

As an alternative, the Ramora could be equipped with a single disruptor and have two option mount boxes limited to ph-1, 2, or 3, Drone A, B, C, or ADD.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, May 06, 2025 - 11:20 pm: Edit

I am pretty sure the Freedom Fighter is the only internally made WYN PF that there is or will be. They are a bit "light", but that fits with the WYN and what they had to work with. I doubt they would have made the expense to make heavier gunboats, as the ones they made work very well for them.

That said, if you want a variant of the Freedom Fighter where the drones are replaced with an additional set of LS/RS Ph-1s, that is a reasonable request. Or, I suppose you could just push all the way and ask that those two positions be outright option mounts. Either request is completely reasonable.

However, they problem you are going to run into is that the Freedom Fighter, as it is, is extremely efficient for the WYN, and your proposal would need to deal with why the increased complexity and diversity of weapons would be a win for the, uh, WYN. What benefits do the WYN get for the trouble of increasing the complexity of both the construction of the gunboats and logistical support of the gunboats.

Also, you'd need to justify why the drone racks are the option mounts instead of the disruptor. I say this because I'd honestly expect them to make phaser (replace the disruptor with a Ph-1) and escort (replace the disruptor with an ADD-12) versions of the Freedom Fighter, but swapping out the nose weapon, not the side weapons. But that's just me, and I could be totally wrong on that.

EDIT: Also, do note that the Freedom Fighter is considered to be a "fish ship". It may not have the "wings" or name, but it is still a "fish ship".

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 07, 2025 - 05:39 am: Edit

Yep, freedom fighter is it. I am not sure what versions and variations exist, but those listed by Mike are fine.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, May 07, 2025 - 10:34 am: Edit

Anti-fighter? Drone-A replaced by Drone-E? Given how much the Kzinti preferred to use fighters (more than Gunboats), I can imagine the Usurper making some use of this sort of variant in his campaign.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, May 07, 2025 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Andrew Granger: Okay, if we add four boxes to the WYN with no effect on their movement, you realize you are opening a door to add four boxes to every other PF, right? No, not goth there. PFs work fine as is, including the WYN Freedom Fighters.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, May 07, 2025 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Adding additional phaser-1s is not acceptable given the lyans were downgraded to phaser-2s (admittedly I had a hand in that but it was consistent with the phaser-1 versus phaser-2 arming of their ships). It would put to o much punch on the WYN Gunboats.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, May 07, 2025 - 10:54 pm: Edit

SPP,

In Andrew's defense, I don't think he is asking for any extra boxes on the WYN PF. He is, fundamentally, asking for the drone racks to become option mounts that can hold any phaser (not gatling), drone, or ADD rack. It is, on the surface, not completely unreasonable and does not add any new boxes; simply changing what is there. However, on any examination, it is too much. Having four Ph-1s AND a disruptor, or four drone racks (even just type-As) AND a disruptor is just too powerful. Only one other PF approaches that, and it is the incredibly expensive and incredibly rare Kzinti MRN. That is just too much for a WYN PF.

However, my point is that I would expect if something like that is to be done, it would be the disruptor that becomes the "option mount". Of course, in reality, it wouldn't be an actual option mount, but would result in two or three variants: Phaser variant, Escort (ADD-12) variant, and maybe a drone (B) variant. This would have a max of three Ph-1s or three drones, but at the cost of the disruptor. That keeps its power in check and within the bounds of existing gunboats. This is completely reasonable.

Now, do the WYN "need" these variants? I have no idea. That decision is above my pay grade. Are these variants sufficient for Andrew's purposes? No idea. But it is what could have a chance of success. (Personally, I'm all for reasonable gunboat weapon variants. I have asked for several. I would love to see these.)

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 08:18 am: Edit

How about an E rack anti drone PF?

E racks have a good rate of fire and can take out a bunch more drones than an ADD 12 (Which will kill 6 or so if you can take all shots at range 3)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 10:53 am: Edit

One of the "lost empire" timelines from Module C6 has the WYNs exist more or less as they do historically - albeit with four surrounding empires (Klingon, Kzinti, Lyran, and Carnivon) rather than three.

Personally, I hope for more such "Mapsheet C1" timelines to be presented in a would-be "Module C6R" someday.

In any case, this leaves the door ajar for potential "WYN-Carnivon" units to exist - such as a few Carnivon-sourced INTs, perhaps? - as well as for both the WYN Navy and the Orion Cluster Cartel to gain access to disruptor cannons (which can be reverse-engineered by other factions), but not heel nippers nor death bolts (both of which are unique to the Carnivons thsmelves).

So, perhaps "lost empire" timeline combat variants of the standard and leader WYN PFs could be made to exist, which each replaced the prow disruptor bolt with a disruptor cannon?

For one thing, the added punch of a disruptor cannon might be useful against the Andromedans - not least since these weapons have the same "disruptive" effect on PA panels as disruptor bolts do.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 12:39 pm: Edit

WYN Fish PFs I think would be an excellent simulator/alternate timeline addition.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Mike,

The WYN don't appear to make use of type-E drone racks much. So, I just don't see them using any in their gunboats. The ADD-12 will work much better for them, and they have an established precedent of using ADDs.

But, again, I will stress that I am not the one making the decision. So, you do you!

Alex,

Again, the Freedom Fighters *are* the WYN "fish" PFs. No, they don't have any little tiny wings, but they are still the "fish" PFs.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Mike G, using Type-VI Drones as counter drones is something I do too, but there is a precedent in game that tells me the various powers have pretty much given up on using Type-E Drone racks that way; the Kzinti DNE has a Type-E Drone rack in the same spot where their standard DN has an ADD.

(On the other hand, what if this Drone modification were to use a pair of Type-G Drone Racks in place of the Type-A, to get the best of both worlds?)

Mike W, it may just be the outline on the SSD sheet, but the Freedom Fighters, at least to me, look like their silhouette is meant to mimic their AUX more than the fish ships. However, until the WYN MSSB comes out (or perhaps there'll be new art in the revised/updated Module K ), we won't know.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Going by the art in the FC Gunboats Attack module, they are 100% Fish ships. They just don't have the wings.

Anyway, from a meta-game perspective, I don't remember whether the Freedom Fighter or the Fish ships were introduced first, but, in the end, the Freedom Fighters count as part of the Fish ship fleet. It is like the Condor. The Condor was designed and made (for the game; not in the game) well before the Hawk series was introduced. However, no matter how ill-fitting, the Condor is still fundamentally considered a Hawk ship, not an Eagle ship. (I consider it its own family, but that's just my head-canon.)

And I think the Freedom Fighters were originally considered derivative of the Buccaneer, but with Klingon engines. (For whatever reason the WYN appear to have copied or licensed Klingon warp designs.) But then, I suppose that is relatively true of the Fish ships, too.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, May 08, 2025 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Freedom fighters are fish ships.

We haven't done the WYN MSSB yet and I'll recommend to Petrick that "remora" be mentioned as the actual Fed codename for the freedom fighter PF. But Petrick and I have agreed that the FredFig is the only PF the WYNs are going to have.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, May 09, 2025 - 10:13 am: Edit

I thought that the WYN built ORION PFs for the Cluster cartel. And kept some for their own use.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, May 09, 2025 - 11:16 am: Edit

While that seems reasonable, Mike, but I do have a pretty weird WAG for why they don't.

My best guess is that, OFFICIALLY, the WYN have, "No real relationship with the pirates; after all they are 'Criminals.'" This is, and again, this is just my wild a-ed guess, because if they couldn't deny their connection to the pirates, then their neighbors might not be as willing to come to their rescue, when a rival superpower attacked them.

If the WYN were to make extensive use of Buccaneers, it'd be harder for them to deny their associations with the Cluster Cartel.

Again, this is just my own little WAG; it's SVCs universe and I'm just playing in it.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, May 10, 2025 - 10:24 am: Edit

The Wyn use Orion ships built in the Cluster Cartel shipyard. Until the Fish ships that is their source for new hulls. Everything else is refugee and Aux'es

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, May 10, 2025 - 01:18 pm: Edit

True, Mike. Very true. VERY small numbers, like they have small numbers of purchased (or refugee) ships from all their neighbors.

I suppose that, technically, the same thing can be said about "Purchased" Gunboats, like the WYN purchased fighters and Interceptors from their neighbors, but if virtually all PF type gunboats were of the Orion variety, it would at the very least suggest a closer relationship between the WYN and the Cartels that their neighbors might find antagonistic.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, May 10, 2025 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Almost forgot the most important thing, Mike.

Talk with the folks with whom you game, and if they're good with you flying WYN with Orion gunboats, have fun, and I'll put a sock in it.

After all, isn't having fun what gaming is all about?

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 12, 2025 - 11:12 am: Edit

I don't think Orion gunboats in WYN service are any good. They lose engine doubling...

But I could see the WYN using them for missions outside the Cluster...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, May 12, 2025 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Orion PFs in WYN service are just fine. Assuming their option mounts are a disruptor and two drones, then the differences between the two PFs are:
- The Orion PF has 1xPh-1 and 2xPh-3 instead of 2xPh-1s.
- The Orion PF has 1 Tractor instead of 1 APR.
- The Orion PF has 3 Hull instead of just 2 Hull.
... and that's about it.

A WYN Buccaneer works just fine. (And you are correct: no engine doubling for the WYN.)