New Expansive Fleet Battle Tournament Topic

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 07:26 am: Edit

Hello potential players,

As discussed in the 500-BPV Fleet battle BBS topic, this is a rules fork for the "Expansive" set of rules. This widens the permissions to choose forces, and also introduces different maps and terrain.

The main difference from the 500-BPV rules are:
* Random roll for Terrain.
* Base BPV limit is increased to 650, and fight at 775.
* One size class 2 unit is permitted, but it must be accompanied by two size class 4 units.
* All fleets must have at least one size class 4 unit, as before.
* All races may take up to 18 fighters (Hydrans are max 24), and true carriers with escorts are permitted.
* All races may take up to 6 PFs, casual or in one flotilla (Lyrans are max 10).

The goal is to finalize these rules, and get players to signup by the end of September.

If you are interested to play or contribute, please read the rules at the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5YVREdAW9kCuNnC-i0NG43woRRiMfbR/view?usp=sharing

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 10:29 am: Edit

I'm interested.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 11:03 am: Edit

100% there.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 12:44 pm: Edit

What year?

Are megafighters allowed?

What about "special" weapons like Tholian webcasters or Klingon stasis field generators?

I assume X-ships are not allowed since no mention of them. What about XP-refits?

Restrictions on use of "Unique" or other extremely rare ships?

Note also that rolling for terrain can hugely aid or handicap some forces. Tholians with webcasters really like fighting in asteroids. Any empire that invests heavily in fighters will be really hurt in a nebula. Does terrain determination come before or after force selection?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Hello Thyrm,

I think most of your questions are answered in the document, can you access it?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 23, 2025 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Yes I can access it. I didn't notice the link previously. My own fault.

I am still a little concerned about "Nebula" being one of the permitted terrain types. It does penalize some empires a lot more than others.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, May 24, 2025 - 05:30 am: Edit

Well, what is the most exotic terrain that would be considered "balanced"? Black Hole?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 24, 2025 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Hmm... Dust clouds, maybe? The one empire most harmed by dust clouds, the Jindarians^*, aren't players in this tournament anyway.

On the other hand, maybe dust clouds aren't "exotic" enough?


^*Dust clouds degrade warp rail gun effectiveness much more than they degrade any other direct fire weapon.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 24, 2025 - 12:25 pm: Edit

I would also remark that if you keep "Nebula" as a terrain type, most^* empires could "hedge their bets" in force selection so that if they do fight in a nebula, they are minimally handicapped. Fighters are useless in a nebula but the Hydrans, for example, might pick a hellbore-heavy fleet, spending only a minimum amount of their allotted BPV on "fusion-and-fighter" ships.


^*The Lyrans, however, can't really do this. The ESG is useless in a nebula so a Lyran fleet will inevitably be spending a significant chunk of BPV on systems that, if the terrain roll is bad for them, might just as well be hull boxes.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, May 24, 2025 - 10:00 pm: Edit

I've played extensively in many terrain types. There's no such thing as "balanced" terrain. Inevitably, terrain can affect some techs differently than others. Take a Black Hole. The movement induced by the hole is much harder on seeker races (especially plasma). Show me a terrain type, and I will show you how it benefits some empires more than others. As a rule of thumb, however, terrain disfavors seeker races.

That doesn't mean you don't play with terrain. It does mean that you accept that with random terrain you *will* increase the RPS effects of tech differences. Sometimes substantially.

If that's a problem, the solution is simple. Get rid of terrain. Period. Empty space is the sole "balanced" terrain in this game.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 24, 2025 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Ted,

I basically agree but with the caveat that some terrain types induce more extreme RPS effects than others.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, May 25, 2025 - 04:15 am: Edit

One reason why terrain is included is because potential players requested it.

The other reason is to balance out the apparently strong seeking weapon capabilities of fast drones, as many have commented in the 500-BPV fleet tournament. The follow-on tournaments are now compact and expansive, where expansive is intended to extend the rules in use.

So, the plan is to use terrain in this one.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Monday, May 26, 2025 - 06:16 am: Edit

maybe we could use some basic terrains that dont obviously nerf any race over another, like asteroids or a planet w/ a moon or planets.. or other terrains that are not too crazy??

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, May 26, 2025 - 10:53 am: Edit

This is the section of the rules regarding terrain as written:

---

Quote:

SCENARIO SET UP: Before the Selection of Commander’s Options, there is a random
selection for terrain, roll D6 on the chart below:
1. Deep Space, big map (four standard size maps)
2. Deep Space, mid-sized map (62 hexes by 45 hexes)
3. Small Moon in the center of the map (62 hexes by 45 hexes)
4. Class M planet in the center of the map (62 hexes by 45 hexes)
a. Roll D6 for small moons (1-2: no moons, 3-5: one moon, 6: two moons)
b. Roll D6+3 for distance and D6 for direction, orbit(s) are clockwise from
above.

5. Gas Giant planet in the center of the map (62 hexes by 45 hexes)
a. Roll D6/2+3 for radius (round up)
b. Roll D6 for rings (1-3: no rings, 4-6: rings, roll D6/2 (round up) for width in
hexes. There is a two hex gap between the atmosphere and the rings)
c. Roll D6 for moons, at D6+3 distance from the planet, but no closer than the
outer ring hex.

6. Nebula, mid-sized map (62 hexes by 45 hexes)
Big Map: Four maps will be used. Force A will start on map #1 within 20 hexes of 0306;
Force B will start on map #4 within 20 hexes of 4024. On SFBOL there is a single hex grid
which is 60 hexes by 84 hexes, so map #4 hex 4024 should be 8254 on the main SFBOL map
(lower SE corner).
Mid-Sized Map: Force A sets up within 12 hexes of the NW corner hex, Force B sets up
within 12 hexes of the SE corner hex.

---

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Tuesday, May 27, 2025 - 09:52 pm: Edit

that seems pretty good to me.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, May 28, 2025 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Perhaps one option terrain-wise could be to consider adding the Qixavalor Cloud (OP1.0) from the 2011 Omega Master Rulebook to the list someday?

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Historically, this cloud - plus the warp-capable Qixa species native to it - can be found over in the Omega Octant. But, there is no particular reason why equivalent terrain features would not appear in other parts of known space, such as in the Alpha Octant...

The cloud is comprised of explosive gases and plasma, though there are pockets of "clear" space therein - to include around gravity wells, such as the Qixa home world.

Rather than using nebula rules, it instead does the following things:

*Units larger than Size Class 5 take one point of shield damage (on a facing of their choosing) per active hex moved into under warp power, but not under impulse power. Smaller units, such as fighters or PFs, or seeking weapons, move through the cloud unaffected.

*Most weapons, be they direct-fire or seeking types, trigger feedback damage to the firing (or launching) ship when fired (or launched). This is 20% of the maximum damage for most direct-fire and plasma-type seeking weapons; or one point per drone-like weapon, ADD, or RALAD, regardless of warhead strength.

*Certain other system functions, such as raising an ESG or adding power to a web, trigger their own feedback damage also.

*Damage scored on enemy units inside the cloud gain 20% bonus damage; this is per weapon, not per volley.

*Mines and T-bombs are particularly dangerous in the cloud: they score a bonus 50% damage in the immediate hex, and a bonus 25% damage in the surrounding ring of hexes.

Naturally, the Qixa developed unique ship and weapon types which are intended to operate safely within the cloud; indeed, their ships have two separate BPV listings, for "in-cloud" and "out-of-cloud" use. As an Omega faction, however, they would not be eligible for use in an Alpha-only tournament such as this one!

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In short, I might wonder if adding the cloud as a terrain feature here might make for an "explosive" option - pun intended - in a manner which need not necessarily favour one type of Alpha Octant empire over another.

Or would it be best to keep it aside for a would-be Omega squadron tournament instead?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Friday, May 30, 2025 - 07:35 am: Edit

Well, I did ask for an exotic option ... that certainly qualifies!

I'm going to do some advertising, and once we have a quorum, then we can take a poll.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, May 31, 2025 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Geof, will the Federation be allowed PFs, you mentioned above all races. also will the PF be considered as in place of SC4 for that rule

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, May 31, 2025 - 11:16 pm: Edit

For comparison's sake:

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In the Reflection Universe, as presented in SFB Module R4J, the Federal Imperium (the SFU's "militant" counterpoint to the historical United Federation of Planets) gets to use Interceptors and fast patrol ships, as soon as the technology is available for them to do so.

But, in exchange, they never adopt the "Third Way"; never deploy F-111s, phaser-G-armed fighters, nor SWAC shuttles; and, since they are enemies with the Gorns in that timeline, don't get any plasma variant ships either.

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Closer to the "standard" timeline - perhaps too close for comfort - there is the "dark future" encountered/created by the USS Darwin in an infamous scenario from Module X1, and as expanded upon in Module C3A and in Captain's Log #54.

In that particular timeline, the Federation is driven to adopt fast patrol ships in alt-Y198, as an act of desperation in the face of an ever-rising tide of Andromedan conquest.

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For the sake of this tournament, I might suggest imposing, if not an identical split to that seen on either side of the Reflection, at least one in a similar vein.

As in: a "Fed" player here perhaps ought to be obliged to pick either the "Third Way" or the use of fast patrol ships...

...unless someone wants to run a variant "dark future" tournament set in, say, alt-Y200?

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Sunday, June 01, 2025 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Feds no heavy fighters get PFs instead, That is the choice. Nice straight and simple.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, June 01, 2025 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Hey Ed,

First off, glad you are feeling better.

Regarding the Fed PFs, if we go by the rules as written, the answer is no, because they are conjectural, and such units are already excluded.

The Fed PFs have long been considered controversial. Is it possible for the Feds to be competitive without PFs? I think so, but I'm prepared for a debate. I think a Fed force with PFs would not have F-111s, but also no F-14s, F-15s, no gatling phasers on carriers or escorts. As an alternative, probably a Fed CVB group w F-15s is possible within the new BPV limit.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, June 02, 2025 - 12:11 am: Edit

Yep much better, no one wants to catch RSV, nothing they can give you for it. An off shoot of the FLU, had the vaccine for it, but does not always prevent it. Lessens its effect. Lasts overall about a month to 6 weeks. You get up every morning, no energy, finally for the last 2 or 3 weeks all you do is cough, in some cases almost to the point you want to pass out.

Below is a rule for possible use of the PF from theFed manual. I am also sending you an email with a point to balance it out.

First there a rules for conjectural use. In a conjectural universe where the Federation built fast
patrol ships, they do not build F-111s (R2.F11) or FB-111s
(R2.F16) and there are no Gorn GB-111s (R6.F01). Ships
designed to operate F-111s can use F-101s (R2.FA14). Even
in a situation in which players agree a Federation player can
use gunboats and F-111s, no ship carrying F-111s can use
(R1.R1) to add gunboat mech-links (K2.24) to its tractors. As
with other empires, no “true fast patrol ship tender” can
operate heavy fighters.