I do not agree that a 20 turn game needs any sort of reaction, nor do I agree that ppts should be removed. SFB is NOT a fast game, if you dont have the time, dont play, there are TONS of other games that one can play in less time.

2 turns or 25 turn games, like the 25 turn fed vs rom game at origins happen, again, its the players that decide that even if they do not realize it.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, November 12, 2025 - 07:16 pm: Edit

As I have said before if You want to speed up plasma games. limit ships to ONE wild weasel per game.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, November 12, 2025 - 08:35 pm: Edit

I will ask Petrick to weigh in on the plasma-vs-plasma question.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, November 12, 2025 - 10:16 pm: Edit

For plasma vs plasma, the choices are

1. Leave it as is.
2. A limit of 10 turns, then judgement.
3. Only one WW each.
4. No PPTs
5. Something else.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, November 12, 2025 - 10:47 pm: Edit

of that list -- #2. I'll never fly plasma again with #3 or #4.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 03:06 am: Edit

Justin got a point; the number of turns are not important, but not slowing down the tournament are. This suggest setting deadlines for rounds and enforce them.

By Stefan Lenfest (Himosan) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 05:10 am: Edit

I'd go for Option #1 "Leave It" or Option #5 "Something Else" provided that Something Else is good.

Option #4 "No PPTs". I like this one the least -- don't think PPTs are the cause of any of this and don't think they should be penalized. And I'm no expert but no PPTs in Plasma vs Plasma would seem like it makes EPT (i.e. ballet) games more likely which seems like the opposite of what we want? Also some unwanted balance effects for TKE, ISC and perhaps OPT ships if they're covered.

Option #2 "10 turns, then Judgement". Also not a fan of this one -- adjudication of long games is already in the rules but having it happen on a fixed turn could incentivize even slower play and outright stalling. And sure 10+ turn games take a while but is turn count really the best measure of game length? I bet many turns in a 20 turn game are quite fast.

Option #3 "One WW each". I'm not fan of how WW-friendly the game is so I'm open to arguments that they are the real problem. Still I don't like a 1/game limit here, seems like medicine that's worse than the problem. Maybe just nerf the EW bonus after T10? Or hand out some ECCM: T10+ everyone gets 4 natural ECCM, erases the weasel shift and makes it easier to retain and reacquire lock on vs Cloak. Tie it into the Tournament Barrier rules (it's easier to track stuff without all the background radiation, whatever). If the real culprit is the Cloak (I'm skeptical but also clueless), you could target that more specifically and just make the retain/reacquire rolls easier.

Most likely the real issue is the ballet itself? This is a lot harder to fix, you'd have to mess with the plasma mechanics and I don't think anyone wants to.

tldr: best idea is Leave It, maybe be a little more aggressive on adjudication and round time limits.

Or given plasma's absurd playrate and record across all SS events maybe buff some of it's poor matchups and this won't come up as often.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 10:17 am: Edit

Strongly for option 1, no change is needed or warranted here.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 10:27 am: Edit

Enforcing time limits is a key feature of Sapphire Star, it's why we started a new series. But you have to tell the judge that there is a deadline problem, not expect him to know it by ESP (Electronic Supposition Plasma).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 10:58 am: Edit

I vote for 1 and strictly enforce deadlines.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Honestly #2, isn't necessary if the judge manages the tournament deadlines. 20 turns games probably won't happen, I know they won't for me. I will play 2-3 times and then time will run out with about 10 turns played. Then call in the judge. Easy.

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I vote #1. Even with plasma v plasma 20 turn games are rare. Just think of it as extra inning baseball & enjoy the novelty.

By Bill Schoeller (Bills) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 03:42 pm: Edit

I vote 1. those players involved should be allowed to call a judge if they wish.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 04:45 pm: Edit

#1

The "20 Turn Game" is very much a function of the TKE, rather than plasma V plasma. I have played a lot of Plasma V Plasma games. The only ones that have ever gone even close to 20 turns involved the TKE.

The combination of the plasma R (which makes you run very far away) and the low cloak cost (and the 30 box shields+10 armor) makes a very long, slow game a definite possibility. Gorn V TFH or TKR can go longer than average, but you are in the 12 turn range, rather than 20 turns.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Tournament time lines

When the tournament starts there are 3 weeks for 1st round then 2 weeks for each additional round. The dates are set in stone from the start. In the past the Judge knows when the timelines are due - sends out emails to find out where the games are at. The past few tournaments there has been a very laxed judging going on this. This causes a problem for the players. This is setting the player against each other instead of the judge enforcing the timelines.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 06:05 pm: Edit

We did that when players said they were grown ups and didn’t need to be hassled. I have asked the current judge to resume the old ways even if players resent being pestered.

Even so, I remind players that complaining in public about a situation you could have avoided with an email two weeks earlier makes you at least as responsible as the judge.

The first person in line to stop your problems from happening is you.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Beyond that, management will discuss the time zone issue. I don’t think it’s good sportsmanship to demand that your opponent play at 1am. You both need to find a time in “normal hours” or ask the judge to do something, shuffling the tree or replacing a player. No one should ever agree to a ridiculous start time; you should call a judge.

As for the plasma issues, several have complained but none of the players actually in the record long game complained.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 13, 2025 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I must say that pitching a fit in public should be the LAST resort, not the first complaint, although I can understand the frustration. Seth did not contact a judge, the chief marshal, Jean, or myself. He just came here (two weeks past the deadline) and raised a stink. A public stink is a good way to make something happen (I have done it myself), but it's a bad way to treat the company when we're trying to provide good service. If you contacted Paul and he did nothing, I would agree you should have contacted Petrick. If SPP did not reply (he's been in the hospital a lot), Seth would have been justified to contact someone higher (me, Jean, Albert).

But nuclear weapons should be the LAST resort.

If a trash can is on fire, you don't walk past the fire extinguisher to post a note on Facebook that the fire department seems to be lazy.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 12:57 am: Edit

It would be helpful if the deadlines for each round was declare at start and the added top of this thread were the links are collected.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 02:23 am: Edit

When I played Seth last, I was in the same timezone as he was (and jet-lagged) and there was no demand for anything, in fact I suggested that we save one turn earlier.

Is this the place to discuss such facts? My understanding was that a separate email thread would occur, but so far only this thread ... I'm confused about our path to resolution.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 09:28 am: Edit

Geoff, I am still waiting for your email.

There should be no further discussion here.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Both Seth and Geoff need to send me "one big memo" each describing everything you have to say on this matter. Anything not in the memo will not be considered. We might or might not ask you both to respond to each other's memos. The company board of directors will discuss the memos next week at the earliest chance we get, but there are a lot of things going on and there is no promise that this will be on Monday.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 02:25 pm: Edit

A player sent me an email suggesting an old idea we considered but never implemented before, that being some kind of delay of game penalty. Say we have a rule that EA must be done in 10 minutes, or within two minutes of the other player finishing it, whichever takes longer. For every minute past that time, you lose one box (presumably a hull box but we aren't picky) from your SSD.

Thoughts?

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 02:58 pm: Edit

I love the game - playing and watching it. I feel in the best interest of S19 that I will concede the game. This will get the tournament moving in the right direction. From the posts made by Steve Cole I feel my issue will be addressed in future tournaments.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 14, 2025 - 04:20 pm: Edit

We have the plasma issue, the time-to-EA issue, the time zone issue, any other issues that the Board needs to address when we update the tournament rules next week?