Steve I said nothing about the rules changing I was talking about tactics those have changed dramatically

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, November 27, 2025 - 05:38 pm: Edit

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 27, 2025 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Gregory, yes, tactics evolve, even with no serious rules changes for judging or the game itself.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, November 28, 2025 - 02:22 am: Edit

Jack, yes ISCs are a bit predictable. I expected Geof to stop in the middle of the map T:3, and he did. However I could not copy the tactic Peter used in an earlier Sapphire, plot a series of decellerations and power the tractor beam, because the KR is not tough like a Gorn.
A speed 15 with more power for reinforcement would have been a gamble. The only mistake I did was not launching something to force the use of Geofs WWs

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 28, 2025 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Carl wrote:
>>However I could not copy the tactic Peter used in an earlier Sapphire, plot a series of decellerations and power the tractor beam, because the KR is not tough like a Gorn.>>

Heh. I'm in no way questioning your decisions or tactics here (and mostly just lightening the mood :-), but the Gorn being "tough" isn't really an issue in this instance--the TKR has the same plasmas, same power, same tractors (that get killed or not at the same rate), *more* phasers to take hits on, and all the weaker hull means is that your batteries die faster, but in a situation like "I'm rushing the stopped ISC to tractor it, and taking my hits to get there", the batteries are empty (dumped into tractors or speed or whatever) before they get hit anyway.

The TKR isn't going to potentially blow up going for an anchor; it's just gonna get beat up some getting in there, and the main issue is losing tractors or not, and that isn't really a function of internal fortitude.

The main difference between the Gorn trying this and the TKR trying this is that the TKR will likely lose shuttles a lot faster, but it wasn't going to try to double SS anyway (as, well, one bay, which gives a slight edge to the Gorn, but I rarely find that suicides make the difference anyway; either I don't have any to launch in the first place, or I do, and the double SS launch just means the difference between "The ISC is completely demolished" and "The ISC explodes", which is a largely academic difference), and the weasels are likely irrelevant.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 28, 2025 - 07:05 pm: Edit

I should note that I cannot read business email at home, so anyone who sent something to my company account won’t get an answer before Monday.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, November 28, 2025 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Peter, I should play the Gorn some. Good learning experience for sure.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 29, 2025 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Heh, I mean, if I had any sense, I'd play a Romulan. But I don't like cloaking.

In recently comparing the TKR and the GRN TCC, they have very similar plasma arcs (the GRN has those LS/RS Plasma Fs', which have 100% been advantageous in games, but also the lack of LP/RP for the Plasma F's has been problematic at times); the TKR has more total phasers (11 vs 10), and takes phaser damage better (it usually has at least 3xP3s to take hits on from most angles), but does lack the ability to hit someone with 8xP1 in a single turn. GRN has 16 hull to the TKRs 12 hull (and the C hull, meaning it take a big hit better). Other than that, the GRN gains 3 more control and the double shuttle bay; the TKR gets a vastly better turn mode and the cloak (which, to be fair, is hard to use, but that it exists is significant).

The two ships are operationally very similar, but the Gorn certainly can take a big hit better than the TKR.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, November 29, 2025 - 05:30 pm: Edit

I think the Gorn is clearly better. 3 more phaser-1's. At range 5 that is about half a shield, every turn, if the Gorn is playing like it should. It never has less than 4 p1s in arc so it is shooting more often through shields that are up at shields that are down. The Gorn is tough. Lately I think it is the best ship there is. Ima start playing Shark again to see if I can convince myself otherwise.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 30, 2025 - 10:27 am: Edit

So it seems like Geof won in the ISC, in so much as a result was reported, and it shows Geof's ISC beating my GRN. Which, to be fair, isn't that unlikely, but also hasn't happened yet :-)

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, November 30, 2025 - 10:34 am: Edit

Hello Paul, Peter,

Sorry, I mistakenly reported a win over bakija, which is incorrect, I was attempting to report a win over Hardcore.

We played the rest of Turn 4, then 5 and 6. I'll summarize.

Turn 4 - the ISC was in retrograde at speed 9, the RKR was moving 21, and the ISC had just launched an EPT. Shortly before the RKR turned away to run from the EPT, he launched 2xS. By the time they got there, the ISC had slowed to speed 4, launched a WW and seen them be both real. RKR accelerated to 26, then down to 15, and moved away in a big circle.

Turn 5 - ISC applied braking energy and moves 10 forward all turn. Rom continues speed 15 and comes around slowly. Rom turns in and eventually points the 12 box #6 at the ISC, By impulse 32, we are getting pretty close, looks like range 8. ISC fires PPD and 6xPh-1, missed with PPD, did 14 with phasers. Rom has 8 reinforcement, so shield is six boxes. At EOT Rom repairs 2 boxes powered, and two more with CDR, yielding a 10 box #6.

Turn 6 - ISC plots 16/8/4, continues PPD, which was overloaded upon firing on 5.32. Rom plots 15/26/? with about 3 reinf on the #1. The PPD hits on the second pulse on impulse one, then ISC moves in to range 7 on impulse two and 3rd pulse. Impulse three sees the Rom turn in (I was worried he might turn out and run) to range six centerlined both ships #1 to #1. ISC changes speed to 8, declares emergency decel on 6.3, launches an EPT and 20 points from the G tubes, and 4th PPD pulse. Rom closes to range five on impulse 4, takes another pulse, and fires back 5xPh-1s, doing 16, sees two reinforcement, yielding a 16 box #1 for the ISC. Impulse 5 sees the ISC stop, last pulse of the PPD penetrates the #6 with splash, scoring 1 RW. Rom decided to blast with 3xF-torps (saving the 4th presumably to be an S torp on turn 7). Two of these hit the weak #1, doing four internals - hull, RW, phaser 3 and torpedo (E). Impulse six sees the Rom attempt another HET, to avoid the EPT (the other G-torp was fake, but could have been a quickload). Rom rolls a 5, and we discussed whether tumbling is possible in the tournament (I think so?), but then Carl concedes.

Thanks Carl, it was a fun game!

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, November 30, 2025 - 10:48 am: Edit

I see you guys were having a comparison of the Gorn and RKR. They really are similar in many ways. The cloak is hard to use, and the threat of the cloak is often more meaningful than actually cloaking, like Peter said.

When I've played the RKR vs the ISC, I think it was Sapphire 18? In that battle I tried the offensive cloak under-run, basically hold G torps, PFC and move about 15 with cloak, just try to get close and avoid the PPD. In that battle it worked pretty well. There are only a few opposing ships where that kind of thing might work, but it can be a tricky and very Romulan way to try and get close.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Monday, December 01, 2025 - 02:30 am: Edit

Speaking about tactics:

TKR: Energy For Movement 22.0i 19.0i 22.0i 22.0i 16.0i 22.0i

ISC: Energy For Movement 26.0i 22.0i 3.0 6.0(reverse) 10.0(+4 braking energy) 6.0

The 6.0 is for a 16/8/4 plot.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, December 01, 2025 - 08:07 pm: Edit

This is not a tactics topic.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 02, 2025 - 01:41 am: Edit

Congrats to Spartan on a great game.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, December 02, 2025 - 09:30 am: Edit

I think those rules need to be formally modified re "stalling". The plasma races need 3 turns to reload weapons. The Hydran and FED needs 2 turns. Even the Klingon will run from a plasma wave - is this stalling or common sense? Would you force a Gorn to run thru a Kzinti drone wave with nothing but phasers? Would you penalize the use of a WW to negate the drone wave? Would you penalize the Orion Pirate for cloaking to negate a drone or plasma wave? Once they lose lock-on, he decloaks, etc.

A lot of commonly used tactics over the years could be called stalling. The Klingon Battle Pass is one. Alpha at range 15 (or less), RUN away, circle back and repeat. But then your weapons are one turn arming. The Gorn Battle Pass does not have such luxury.

Yes, there can be abuse. The definitions of stalling should take into account commonly used tactics. And there are many - published in the Captain's Log.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 02, 2025 - 12:00 pm: Edit

It is not possible to write such a definition. We leave it to judges who rule non-aggression in the most obvious cases. I am not a judge but I have watched this issue for over 30 years. Any hard and fast definition would just be a blueprint for how to avoid judgement. The examples given are more than enough of a guide.

“I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 10:04 am: Edit

Geoff and I are looking at playing 3.1 next week some time.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 10:20 am: Edit

---

Quote:

It is not possible to write such a definition. We leave it to judges who rule non-aggression in the most obvious cases. I am not a judge but I have watched this issue for over 30 years. Any hard and fast definition would just be a blueprint for how to avoid judgement. The examples given are more than enough of a guide.

“I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”

---

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Ted, I don't consider the Non-aggression Guideline for Judges to be a rule. It has not the standard format for rules, nor is it intended for players.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Carl,

I think it's a matter of semantics. I see any guideline or text that affects how the game is played as a "rule."

A rule need not be in a particular format, nor does it have to apply to the players for it to be a rule. A rule that applies to a judge remains a rule. Even a "guideline" is a rule - it's just a loose rule (i.e., more on the vague side, less on the specific side). Also, optional rules are still rules, even if they're optional.

I'd also note that the present "guideline" under consideration does apply to players, indirectly, because players know that - through the guideline - that they can get knocked out if they don't play aggressively.

If the guideline carried no weight, then it's pointless and should be deleted. If it carries any weight that influences the game, whether directly or indirectly, then it's a rule (just one that is vague and not deterministic).

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Stimp (TKE) over BS (Klingon).

T1 TKE did 17/31/26 split with passive fire control, Klingon was 15/16/26. TKE slipped out on the approach to prevent range 8 without a turn-in by the klingon, with R launched at range 15-ish. Klingon elects not to turn in, and instead turns out to flee the 50 pointer. TKE immediately turns in to chase. EOT, TKE is around range 10 off the Klingon's flank, torp is still several hexes away but still glowing brightly. Klingon launches 2 drones on imp 32 & discharged 4xol DR.

T2 Klingon is speed 26, TKE has the same 17/31/26 plot, and raises FC on imp 1. TKE deals with the T1 drones with 2 flank ph-3s. Klingon runs out the torp some more & fires a single ph-3 at it & eats it for 9 or so on a rear shield had it been real, but it is revealed as a ppt. Klingon then turns in to get TKE in FA & fires 4xstd disruptors on the pursuing TKE's #1 around range 8, but rolls poorly for only 3 damage. TKE has the speed increase to 31 & continues pursuit in earnest. At range 2, Klingon launches some drones that need to be dealt with or impact next impulse (unless TKE wants to slip out, which he doesn't) & TKE uses 3xph-1 & ph-3 to handle them. Klingon increases speed to 28 on imp 26 to avoid range 1 & TKE takes this as the last opportunity to land a tractor beam at range 2; for the Klingon it was 27 in movement, 8 in disruptors, 4 hk, and you gotta think they have a WW ready too, so with 7 in tractor + 6 reserve power TKE felt good about the chances. 10 pt tractor gets the Klingon. Klingon lands a type IV on TKE #1 with another well timed range 2 launch (one of the previous drones was the type VI), and 15 pts from phasers on the #2, but the 90pts of plasma from the TKE hit the Klingon #5 for 66 internals & Klingon concedes. GG Bill!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, December 03, 2025 - 11:47 pm: Edit

I'm... shocked. I didn't think it was possible for the TKE to take out a Klingon - much less one flown by BS.

Well done!

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, December 04, 2025 - 02:58 am: Edit

Ted, there is a fundamental difference between the SFB rules and our real life laws; the former are the actual "physical" laws of the imagined universe players agree to abide by in order to be able to play a game at all. If Joe insist on ww at speed 26, charge no energy to arm photons then it is now wonder he get anyone to play the game with. It is not up to interpretation by a judge unlike in real life.
The guideline however is all about interpretation of a situation, and everyone has his viewpoint.
This has been totally unneccessary and caused much bad feelings. Since tourney play began TFG and ADB could have set hard limits, written as rules for tournaments, to stop tactics that are detrimental to running a good tournament. A bit late for that now, regretably.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, December 04, 2025 - 09:46 am: Edit

Carl,

I can't argue with that. In the end, someone(s) will be left frustrated whenever a fuzzy rule (or guideline) gets applied.