Pretty much what it says-- if you allow the Tholians as a "Major race" , with webcaster equipped ships, home galaxy or the welded hull designs, can they be beaten by the other races? Giving EVERYONE webbrakers seems to be too much-- so what if other races could build webbreakers, but had to handle them like SFG's?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Hydrans can take them. 40 Sting-2s in the web does wonders for taking care of ships reinforcing it

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Then there is the "buzzsaw" web where everything is a spiral and the supporting units don't have to make themselves vulnerable.

How then? Care to go through the tholians' entire minefield to get to them?

You'd almost have to give the other races an advantage like web breakers or assign a negative to the tholian web otherwise they'll nibble you to death.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 07:53 pm: Edit

"Being nibbled to death by cats"

Sorry, couldn't resist.


Not sure I get the concept. Tholians are not a major race, and will not be a major race, so is the point of the argument hypothetical?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 07:58 pm: Edit

'Cause its fun!!

Seriously, though, I'd say they could be beaten. Might not be easy, but it could be done. Its been my experience that Tholian ships are generally pretty fragile; once they start taking damge, they go up in a hurry. They also tend to lack the direct fire power of most everyone else, and are almost the only race to be completely seeking-weapon free.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Well, then I'll go back to the Hydran theme too.

Take a Hunter a squadron of Stinger Is and a Horseman and send 2 groups of that out into the buzzsaw ahead of the rest of the fleet. They should take out about half the mines before they explode. It'll cost you about 200 BPV, mostly in fighters

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

If you allow the Tholians as a major race and with webcasters, then the Romulans, Gorn, and ISC are doomed, unless they get to carry web breakers along with their main armament in Seltorian-like numbers.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:00 pm: Edit

the problem with the buzzsaw is that if anything can fly between the web you HAVE to take it out. if you count on mines to do the job then you can run out of them.

especially with the hydran stingers if you have a large swarm of them they can eventually use up the mines and then start killing the base

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:02 pm: Edit

as for the initial question, that depends on their economy. if they have a fed-like economy then tholians against the rest of the galaxy MAY be a fair fight, if they have a much smaller economy then they may not be able to handle the open-space battles nessasary to expand (forceing them to retreat would not be easy, butit is possible if you have enough ships)

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Tholians with webcasters are supreme at attacking and defending fixed points, nearly so in open space fleet actions and roughly balanced in duels (great against plasma, so-so against Disr/drone).

Given sufficient odds any technological edge can be overcome; with all the major races together against a Tholia with Fed fleet size and production I'd bet on the alliance, but it wouldn't be fast or an easy win.

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

(forceing them to retreat would not be easy, butit is possible if you have enough ships)

Possibly need more ships than it took to drive the Hydrans out of the Kingdom.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

it would definantly take more ships then it took to drive the hydrans out, the defenses are significantly tougher

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Tholians able to build web casters in fleet strengths are actually the most potent offensive force in the game.

There is a solo "puzzle" scenario that demonstrates that with a web caster and two web enabled secondary units, you can isolate a planet behind web and obliterate it with impunity.

Open space encounters with more than 3 web caster equipped units tend to require the Tholian player to screw up badly to lose.

Tholian fleet casts web when at range 30 from the target, doing a W'shaped web. Stick in web, fire through web on impulses 32 and 8, turn out, leave.

No matter what the range is, if you're doing damage and the other guy isn't, you win. It may take you 300 turns to win the fight...

One of my amusing alterna-history scenarios has the Tholians triggering a luke-warm war between the Klingons and Feds; they offer a bit of recompense and territory to the Klingons in return for being left free to solve the Romulan problem to the benefit of both races.

Web caster equipped ships in fleet strength. Sublight Romulans. Tholian ships armed with a mixture of PCs and plasma torpedoes, equipped with cloaking devices.

Muahahahahah! (OK, this is my inner munchkin speaking.)

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Ken, what anchors this web you are talking about? (without anchors the cast web fades pretty quickly)

if you are in a asteroid field where there are lots of anchors then yes the tholians really have to blow it to loose, but in open space you have to have something to anchor the web and that something is vunerable

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Fighters and ships come to mind...

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 12:33 am: Edit

John, fighters will be killed VERY quickly so the web will disappear even faster then if it was freestanding

ships are a possibility, but the anchor ships are exposed and stationary, not a good thing (remember that seeking weapons will go INTO the web just fine)

yes the tholian fleet can sacrafice a few smaller ships to protect the large ones for a few rounds, but recognise that this is sacraficing ships.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

With a dozen or so webcasters in a fleet, who cares how fast it fades? Just make more :-)

The thing is that webcaster effectiveness scales with fleet strength at a better than linear rate because each caster has full effect on multiple ships.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 04:41 am: Edit

Andrew, it's not quite that easy, since you can't cast web through other web (even web that hasn't solidified yet) you have to either cast the new web closer to yourself then the last web or you have to move to the side far enough to chear the old web (in which case it is not providing the shielding any more)

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 04:52 am: Edit

That is a limitation in some uses, not all, and not that hard to work around. That almost all WC are FA is a bigger restriction.

A single WC makes the ATC one of the best tourney ships. Bring twenty of them, give each a dozen targets to trap, let them coordinate so that a ship evading one web runs into another... not a pretty sight if you're on the other side of the table.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 05:09 am: Edit

I didn't say it would be easy to fight them, just that it would be possible

as long as you stay slow enough to avoid damage from hitting web the biggest problem is that it stops you for a few impulses. this can disrupt your formation (or not if you fly a tight one and have all the ships get stuck togeather), but since the tholians don't have much in the way of seeking weapons it's not nearly as deadly as adding a single tholian webcaster to a fed/kzinti joint fleet.

I think most of the effectivness of the webcaster is that the people facing it don't understand it's limitations and become afraid of it

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 05:36 am: Edit

If running major-race (unlimited Old Galaxy designs - upwards of twenty WC possible in a fleet) Tholians against a stacked slow fleet, trap them in web for 16 impulses and lay a fire break nearby. This will allow an unreturned fleet strength range three phaser shot before retreating behind another series of web. Rinse and repeat.

By mike mendick (Mikey2) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 07:41 am: Edit

this is not a theoretical discussion.

Sooner or later the tholians will try to take over the galaxy. They ruled one before and liked it a lot, AND they have a massive superiority complex. With WC equipped X-ships.....

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 09:46 am: Edit

David:

Planet in 2215.

First cast web is in 2214, 2315, 2316. Do this just before a turn break, have ships move at high speed in first half of turn 2.

PCs move to hexes 2412, and 2615. Announce anchor eligibility.

Cast a linear web covering 2412, 2413, 2514, 2515, 2615, using the PCs as anchor points.

The hexes of web in 2413 and 2515 will protect the PCs being used as anchor points from fire on the ground. Wait for first web to dissolve.

Everything gets to shoot at the planet from range 4 with phaser 1s. When all bases have been reduced, leave, come around and repeat from the other side of the planet.

If the planets have no fighters, or mobile units, this becomes a bloodless Tholian victory in roughly 12 turns.

Now, take a Tholian NDD, and two PCs, and go attack a planet held by sublight Romulans.

If the Tholians have three web caster equipped units, and their normal builds for PCs, and play cautiously, they can probably conquer a province every F&E turn without taking any casualties.

Once the Tholians TAKE a possession, they (generally) keep it.

Let the Tholians have limited WC production from Y79 onwards, and they'll absorb the Roms by about Y85 or so. If they time this with the Lyran/Klingon conquest of the Hydran kingdom, when the Klingons are occupied elsewhere...and it's decently feasable.

Now, if you want to have real fun -- we know the Tholians can reverse engineer some weapon's tech (it's how they got disruptors).

Replace all the Particle Cannons on Tholian units (which they lack the facilities and industrial base to manufacture) with plasma technology. Extrapolate DN production.

Imagine a Tholian DPH that uses plasma instead of Disruptors. Two web casters, an R torp, two S torps and 2 F torps...

Now, when the Hydran Rebellion strikes, have the Tholians send a diplomatic envoy to the Hydrans saying "Shall we wstablish a mutual, safe border? Say around the middle of Klingon space? We are prepared to assist in your liberation if you'll share fighter engine technology with us..."

Now, picture plasma armed Tholians allied with modern Hydrans, both with gatling armed fighters...(I'm actually tempted to give the Tholians drones for web caster padding from captured Klingon technology -- Tholian drone/gatling fighters. Muahahahah!)

Picture a Tholian Empire with the Tholian economy, the Rom economy and about 2/5 of the Klingon economy, while the Hydrans have their economy and 3/5 of the Klingon Economy.

The Romulans exist as a pocket empire in their "off map" exploration area and probably get absorbed by the ISC.

The Klingon government in exile retreats to the WYN cluster, and the felinoid empires get paranoid.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 09:53 am: Edit

Yes, the Tholians and Hydrans are about the scariest Alliance ever. I'm absolutely terrified of the Hydrans as is (SFB is bad, F&E is worse ).

⁴²

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:07 am: Edit

Teee heee