Here's why plasma armed Tholians are evil:

Launch spread of plasma at target.

Target turns off. On impulse target turns off, cast web to cut off his retreat angle -- if he avoids the web, he gets closer to the plasma. If he rams the web, the plasma hits anyway.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:36 am: Edit

Here's why WC armed Hydrans are evil:

Cast web between enemy and own ships.

Enemy crashes web to get to you, putting them at range 1 to your Fusion Beams and Gatling Phasers.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

I want a WC on my Chlorophon ship. Just one web caster, and one spore caster.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside posted:

=====================
Planet in 2215.

First cast web is in 2214, 2315, 2316. Do this just before a turn break, have ships move at high speed in first half of turn 2.

PCs move to hexes 2412, and 2615. Announce anchor eligibility.

Cast a linear web covering 2412, 2413, 2514, 2515, 2615, using the PCs as anchor points.

The hexes of web in 2413 and 2515 will protect the PCs being used as anchor points from fire on the ground. Wait for first web to dissolve.

Everything gets to shoot at the planet from range 4 with phaser 1s. When all bases have been reduced, leave, come around and repeat from the other side of the planet.
===================

But hexes 2413 and 2515 do not protect the anchor hexes, do they? Rule (G10.61) says that fire along the edge of a web hex is clear unless both hexes along that edge are web hexes (i.e. you are trying to fire across a line of web on the boundery). If the planet were closer to the "W" web, those positions would be safe, but at that distance fire can get to any web hex. And if you put the W closer to the planet, how do you get to that range without losing a ship to the planetary phaser-4s in the scenario (since any closer prevents you from laying an initial covering web)?

I know there is supposed to be a solution to that scenario, but I have never figured it out. I have come close, but always seem to be with an impulse or two where the planet can fire at close range on the ships. If there were another webcaster it would be easy, and with that scenario setup there must be some trick, but I don't know what it is.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 03:51 pm: Edit

If I have time again, now that v3.3 is impending, I intend to run the SFB charity game on SFBOL, Andy.

At which point, if you win the auction on the web caster, you can, indeed, put it on the same ship as a web caster (or vice versa...)

Nick:

As near as I can tell, the ships are both protected by the hexes of web between themselves and the planet, and are protected on the approach by the first cast web prior to the turn break.

With a 2 WC fleet, it's trivially easy.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 03:58 pm: Edit

But that's the point, in that scheme, there are no web hexes between the ships and the planet, other than the first three hex web, and when that goes down...

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Oh, well. Maybe you can show me what you mean at origins in a spare moment...

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Spare moment.... HA!!!.....

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

With two WC, you don't even need anchors.

Planet in 1215. One WC unit (eg. NCA rear hull) in 4215 lays web in 1214 for 16 impulses of every turn. Another (eg. NCA Command module) in 1211 lays web in 1212 for the other 16 impulses of each turn. Adding more ships will make things go faster, but aren't really needed.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

andrew, you can't lay web adjacent to existing web (not that that prevents your tactic, but if there is any defending fleet they can make it expensive to try and kepp the unit in 4215 in place to continue this, it only takes one time of him not being able to lay his web to expose the other ship to the full fury of the PDU's)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Having played the Tholians in a couple of multi-player, "every man for himself" campaigns, I would say the Tholians are not unbeatable as a major race but they are very, very strong. They are simply better than the other races at defending their bases and also better (with webcasters) at attacking the other side's bases. Given the resources to field large fleets, they are at least equal to any other race in open space combat. (I'm talking here about Alpha Sector races. I haven't played with Omega Sector races so can't intelligently comment on them.) And I concur with the remark about how evil the combination of webcasters and plasma is. In one of the above mentioned campaigns the Tholians allied with the Romulans against the Federation, Gorns, and Kzinti. Though outnumbered 3 to 2 we were winning rather handily at the time the campaign ended. The Romulan and I had gotten our combined tactics down so well that at one point the Federation player abandoned and self-destructed one of his own Starbases in the face of our approaching fleet. He decided he didn't have enough ships in the vicinity to have a chance of defending it and couldn't risk us capturing it. Note also that the combined Tholian/Romulan fleet was less effective than a Tholian fleet with plasma technology would be, since the Romulans could not freely move or fire phasers through the webs I cast.

The Hydrans with massive numbers of Stinger-2 fighters are probably the best "standard" galactic race to face the Tholians in a campaign, but the only race I really worry about other than the Seltorians is the Andromedans. An Andromedan can use a DisDev to cross one strand of web, setting up the following tactic. A mothership displaces across the outer ring, moves onto the middle ring and is trapped. Transporters can operate "in to or out of, but not through" webs so the mothership transports its satellite ships forward. These then move on to the inner ring and attack the base. When able, the mothership uses its DisDev on itself to leave the middle ring and join the satellite ships in the base assault. The Tholians are not helpless against this attack but it is much more dangerous than any that the galactic (Alpha Sector) races can manage. Rather than spending multiple turns trapped in the outer/middle rings absorbing unanswered Phaser-4 fire (plus Phaser-1 fire from any Tholian ships/PFs present) the Andromedan satellite ships can attack the base on turn one and the mother ship can join them on turn two.

(Note to Steve Petrick: This is how we have interpreted the web/DisDev/transporter rules. If we have interpreted these incorrectly, please let me know.)

One final comment: John Trauger in his post from11:30 PM, June 22 says "Fighters and ships come to mind...". But this is incorrect. Web Spinners (Tholian Interceptors, MRSs, and some fighters) can not anchor powered web, only zero-strength web. Their function is to draw web from one ship (which must still expend power to create the web hexes) to another anchor. Only after they have transfered that anchor role to another anchor such as another Tholian ship or an asteroid can the web be powered. Since zero-strength web does not block weapons fire, fighters can not be used in the way Mr. Trauger suggests.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Alan,

thanks for the refresh.

The Andro dis-dev can be countered by the judicious use of mines. Remember: A base can spring for mines outside of the standard mine packets. You just pay full price.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 10:37 pm: Edit

It also depends on the cost of the wedding cake. The BPV cost for balancing a battle is not necessarily the EPV cost which could be very much higher.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:42 pm: Edit

To John Trauger:

Good point about mines. As I said, the Tholians are not helpless against this tactic. But I still believe the Andromedans have a better chance of defeating the base than any other race does (except the Seltorians).

To Jay Paulsen:

Also a good point. My experience in these campaigns leads me to believe that the Tholians do need to be penalized in some way for balance purposes. The two most obvious ways would be to increase the EPV of Tholian bases for campaign purposes, or to decrease the overall size of the Tholian economy. The Tholian economy in F&E (about 1/3 the size of the Hydran economy, about 1/10!!! the size of the Federation economy) is too small for the Tholians to be fully viable in an "every man for himself" campaign. But making the Tholian economy "somewhat" smaller (1/2 as large? 2/3 as large?) as the other major races in an "every man for himself" campaign should not be out of line.

A final question in these "every man for himself" campaigns is what to do about foreign technology in ADB-approved ships. Examples would include Tholian photon torpedoes, Federation F-torps and gatling phasers, Klingon maulers, etc. In our campaigns we generally assume the race has, by hook or by crook, acquired the capability to build these systems but that the U7.2 (especially U7.26 and U7.28)production limits apply. Thus the Klingons can build maulers even if not allied to the Romulans but only at low production rates. (Note that Tholian disruptors, though foreign, are not under any U7.2 limits.) If the Tholians are not allowed to build photon torpedo ships unless they are allied to the Federation, it hurts them a little bit but not all that much. A Federation player who can not build gatling phasers (no Hydran expeditionary fleet) is penalized far more. We don't generally allow player modifications or non-ADB-approved ships due to some previous bad experiences with the old "S3.3" rules.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 03:09 am: Edit

Note also that there's a difference between Tholians as a major race with unlimited production of historical Holdfast WC-armed ship designs, and playing them as they would be if they were a real major race that truly had unlimited webcaster production, like the Home Galaxy hulls.

The Tholians in the Home Galaxy, with unlimited WC production, put WCs on every ship short of the NFF, all the way down to the NDDs. The result is that Neo-Tholian fleets and squadrons have ungodly numbers of WCs.

Similarly, if they have true unlimited WC production in a campaign, it would seem logical that the R7.R2 prohibitions would not apply to a Holdfast-hull using Tholian major race, and that Tholian CWHs, CWs and maybe even DDs would be armed with WCs, too.

By Tim Longacre (Timl) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 03:11 am: Edit

Actually, the Andromedans (or anybody else for that matter) can, according to (G10.71), transport anything from one web hex to another so long as there is (are) no hex(es) of web between the 2 points. This allows them (the Andromedans) to jump ring 3, crash ring 2, and transport satships directly to ring 1 in about 5 impulses. As a seasoned Andro player, I know Tholian bases can be taken. The question is at what cost to my force (the bigger the base, and defending force, the more I need to bring, obviously). One thing to remember is that webs do not affect scout channels, so you can always jam the opposing force (for a while) so you can get your shots off. Just wait until the base fires at your mothership, then deploy a nice big mauler or 2 in front of it. Then it's, "Have a day!" as their defense point goes down.

BTW, the Qari can, conceivably, take smaller Tholian bases, as the Trans-mortar is unaffected by web as well. You just need LOTS of them (you are allowed 4 Trans-Mortar equipped ships in base assaults (G51.152)).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 08:49 am: Edit

To Tim Longacre:

Didn't know that about the Qari. I don't play the simulator races very much and don't think I have ever played against them. You're right about the Andromedans being a threat to Tholian bases, though one thing the Tholians can do in the situation you describe is not fire until after the satellite ships have deployed. Depending on the size of the mauler and the strength of the Tholian defenses they might be able to vaporize the mauler after it deploys but before it is able to fire. Of course, this will generally allow the mothership to reach the inner ring unscathed. Deciding when to fire against the Andromedans can be a difficult decision.

The Andromedans can also partly neutralize the webcaster in open space battles by using DisDevs to jump over webs cast in front of them. This can be risky since self displacement will occassionally fail. But it does give the Andromedans an option against a webcaster fleet that most races don't have. The Andromedans and the Seltorians are the only (non-simulator/active in Alpha Sector)races with a technological counter to Tholian technology. The other races can only attack a Tholian fixed defense by overwhelming it with numbers. Against a "major race" Tholian this can lead to enormous and disproportionate losses even if the base ultimately falls.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:23 am: Edit

I'm not sure the Andros will be able to crash a tholian base that easily. Seeing as it will be the mothership that has to Disdev into ring 2, the tholians will target that with their huge stack of shuttles and fighters at point blank (range 2).

That is not healthy for Andros, who have fewer capital ships.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Of course, the Andro can always come calling with a pack of Cobranators.
Take all Cobras - put on fake Maulers
Take all Terminators - put on fake TRLs

Launch them 1 at a time & see if the Tholian guesses right (assumes playing with TacIntel)...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

The discussion so far has focussed on tactical aspects. There are also strategic issues that affect whether or not the Tholians are "unbeatable". A strategic weakness of the Tholians is that they have no non-X "fast ships" in the F&E sense (Fast Cruisers or Light Dreadnoughts). The Tholians can certainly counter such ships tactically. And if X-ships are used in the campaign they can counter them strategically as well. But in a non-X campaign, other races can field units which will outmaneuver the Tholians on the strategic map. Depending on the strategic rules used for the campaign and factors such as ship density and the typical distance between major systems, this could hurt the Tholians at the strategic level.

On the other hand, the Tholians have a powerful strategic advantage in a multi-player campaign in that the synergy of their webcasters with other technology (especially seeking weapons) makes them highly desirable as an ally. If I'm playing the Gorns in a campaign and the Tholians and Romulans both want to ally with me, I'm more likely to ally with the Tholians. The webcaster makes the Tholians a more valuable ally and a more dangerous enemy. Of course, this might be tempered by experience with the individuals playing the respective races. If I know, based on prior experience, that the Romulan player keeps his word and honors his alliances but the Tholian player likes stabbing his "partners" in the back I'll ally with the Romulan because I trust him. But other factors being equal, the Tholians are one of the most desirable races for others to ally with and are therefor unlikely to be isolated strategically unless they are so obviously overwhelming and aggressive that everyone else feels the need to gang up against them.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:35 pm: Edit

X and Fast ships are not that much faster strategicly. the tholians can't raid as well as their opponents, but they have very few targets that are worth their opponents raiding (raiding a base/FRD protected by web with a single ship isn't a good idea )

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Tholians also have, arguably, the worst fighters in the game for defending a fixed point. If you can catch a Tholian planet without sufficient bases/ships to protect it with web, then it will easily fall.

Strategically, the way to beat the Tholians:

1. Fight them in open space.
2. Don't attack their fixed defenses, isolate them, with minefields, if possible.
3. Spread out. WCs are great in large numbers, but if you force a bunch of squadron actions, instead of fleet actions, that advantage is lessened.
4. Attack their economy. Raid their less defended colonies and destoy their convoys.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit

strategicly if you let the tholians dig in and build defenses you will have a real hard time taking things back from them, you have to prevent their expantion and if they do start to build defenses you need to nail them before they get upgraded, it will only get more expensive later.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 05:29 pm: Edit

I don't see limited strategic movement as too big a deal for the Tholians. If they move methodically (ie, this turn I'll capture everything withing 2-3 hexes, fortify it, then do it again), they don't need the extra movement.

I agree that the best way to beat them might be to spread out. Anywhere you run into big numbers & well defended targets, take off. Anywhere it's an un/under-defended base or planet, paste it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 05:36 pm: Edit

How well does scorched earth policies implement in F&E?

If you bomb anything you could lose to the Tholians back into the stone age, it'll take a lot of effort for them to develop. "Course it'll take a lot of effort for YOU to develop if you recapture it...