Do you think the "Plot during EA" will solve a lot of the problems?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:26 pm: Edit

You'd have to plot the impulse of use or still resolve its interaction with mid-turn speed changes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:31 am: Edit

Yes, plot the impulse of start. Allocate power for one or more. No reserve warp use exept to add to the duration.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 01:28 am: Edit

That'ld basically make it useless for drone fights but still pretty deadly for drones, you can guess when the launch will come and if the plasma was launched late in the turn, you could jump up to speed 64 for a few impulses and change the damage bracket of that plasma.

The Hydrans would also be pretty powerful against bases, star castlers, ship escorting frighters and anythinbg that can be well times against ( since picking an impulse during EA would mean a silent jump to speed ) the Hydran would still hurl it'self down to R0 easily and burn you.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:07 pm: Edit

MJC has a point.

It would only be useful tactically at the start of the turn and still potentially disrupts nid-turn speed changes.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:18 am: Edit

I'm actually for speed 33+, I just think one should follow the speed change rules in order to do it.

Moving along at 10 and then jumping up to speed 64 for three impulses is a huge movement capasity that gives point blank ships a big advantage ( except the point blank seekers( read Gorns ).
The advanatge of say speed 37 and paying 5 times the usual price is that you use up so much power that even if you did get to R0 with those fussion beams you'ld only be able to load a few of them...and you'ld only be getting an double movement going on every five impulses or so, which'll mean the speed 24 enemey will have 4 hexes of movement to counter your 6.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:46 am: Edit

I don't know that I've voiced my opinion but I'm for a straight 32 max speed with no special rules. A significant advantage while maximizing simplicity.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:55 am: Edit

Dup deleted.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 01:20 am: Edit

I'm still back at 31. I think going faster is asking for trouble.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 01:59 am: Edit

Of the trans-31 speed ideas I like the HEB best. Second would be the pay a lot for speed 32 option.

Ultimately, I'm OK with 31 as the final limit.

I would like to explore the HEB as far as it will go. I think it could be challenging.

I do think that X2 should get some sort of maneuver advantage. 6 impulses between Mid-TUrn Speed changes could be one.

My Impulse Power Turn is another. Using three times turn mode (round up?) in Impulse Power (or Impulse Reserve) gain a 60° turn. No break down. Resets turn mode. No two IPT with in 1/4 turn.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Loren,

If you're going to give a maneuver advantage, you can allow a ship to make a "powered turn" by expend reserve warp to gain "virtual hexes" toward its turn mode.

Example: A MC=1 CA moving at speed-31 has a turn mode of 6. It had gained 2 hexes toward that turn mod when it really needs to turn (say 200 points of plasma headed its way). for each point of reserve warp it expends, it gets one more hex travelled toward its turn mode. It does not travel any additional hexes, but each point of power expended takes it one closer to its ability to turn.

Potential Advantage:
Reserve power comitted to powered turns can be expended before or after movement (but not both)

Potential Limitations:
To keep this from being a HET substitute, we could limit the ability to gaining one virtual hex of movement per impulse, which would mean that our ship would be able to expend 2 points of power to supplement its next 2 movements to get the 6 it needs to turn, shaving 2 impulses off the turn.

The use of powered turning must be announced and the direction that the energy is being expended to turn. You turn tighter at the cost of reserve power and effectively telegraphing what direction you are going to turn. A ship can only make one powered turn in one direction at any time. The moment a ship starts trying to power a turn in the opposite direction all energy expended for the original direction is lost.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

John, that is an exelent idea. Let me think on it for a bit. I like it a lot but something concerns me...

What do you think about the added accounting? The cost is: Energy + Tipping your hand as to direction (or maybe spending energy to trick the enemy).

Question: If I start to build up power turns to Port but then donot turn. Can I turn to starboard when my turn mode would be normally satisfied?

Perhaps it should be just -1 hex from turn mode with the energy spent on the impulse of turning. That way there is a period when the ship still must go straight but would be more maneuverable. (or maybe max out at half the hexes for your turn mode).

Just rambling here. I'll think on it more.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I would say a -1 port is a +1 starboard.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Are we talking about bringing back directed turn modes?

If not, then do we just count 2 hexes of power to pick up a hex of turn mode?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Jeff, I'm leaning towards that second comment.

If not, then do we just count 2 hexes of power to pick up a hex of turn mode?

Its the simplest thing. Really passes KISS that way.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

That was what I meant. But 1 hex's worth of movement for one hex toward the turn mode. since you aren't going anywhere there's no need to charge more.

Except you can only pick up one untravelled hex toward satisfying turn mode per impulse.

If a MC=1 ship is 3 hexes toward its turn mode, a ship can only pick up 1 hex of powered-turn each impulse so it shortens the turn mode but doesn't mean ships turn on a dime.

You could use it in concert with directed turn modes but there's nothing in the idea that forces you to.

For purposes of simplicity, there is no such thing as expending for a -1 hex. -1 to port does not exist. It's either +1 to port or +1 to starboard. KISS in action.

Alternately, a minus expenditure would negate a hex of forward progress toward turning.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit

Why limit to one hex an impulse?

Just limit the maximum turn to one hexside per hex actually moved and this will not fully replace the HET.

HET's cost only 5 hexes of movement, and allow two or three hexsides at once (which is sometimes the only way to avoid exposing a down shield), for a fast moving ship you could need that much power with this rule to turn two impulses in a row, which is noticably slower than a HET.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:00 am: Edit

John as you state in there I like except for the declaring direction thing.

It doesn't make sense to me to declare a direction if it dosn't commit you to that direction (i.e. +1 to port means -1 to Starbord). As I read above this example is true.

Turn Mode (TM) = C, MC1, at speed 20 (TM=4).
Imp A: Move Straight 1 (TM=3)
Imp B: Move Straight 1 + 1 Vurtual Hex for a Powered (cost 1 reserve Warp) Turn to Port (TM=1 for Port or TM=2 for Starbord)
Imp C: Move Straight 1 (TM=0 to Port or TM=1 for Starbord)
Imp D: Move Straight 1 or Turn to port
Imp E: If Straight on Imp D I can turn either way. If turned to Port TM=4.

It seems to me that unless you are using Directed Turn Modes you should have to announce direction since you don't for normal turns (at least not until you make them of course). The way I wrote this does make it sound more complicated than it is but I think requiring a direction announcement does make it more complicated than it needs to be. I think simply announce that your ship has expended energy on a Vurtual hex towards turn mode.

Also, John, I think you intention to stop ships from turning on a dime is good but if allowed to be used on any impulse would allow some ships to do just that. Perhaps restrict it to Impulses of Movement only.

Say this ship is Turn Mode C moving speed 10. On impulse 10 she turned (TM=3). On impulse 11 she buys a vurtual hex but doesn't move (TM=2). On impulse 12 she buys an other (TM=1). On impulse 13 she moves and her turn mode is satisfied. She can turn on her next move (Impulse 16) when normally she couldn't until impulse 23. That's not an HET but its pretty tight.

If restricted to buying Vurtual hexes on Impulses of movement then its a far different story. On Impulse 10 she turns (TM=3). Impulse 13 is her next move and she buys another vurtual hex (TM=1). One impulse 16 she move again and doesn't need another Vurtual Hex because her turn mode is satified. On impulse 20 she can turn. She does turn sooner (normal would be Impulse 23)but not a lot and not on a dime.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit

OK, I just re-read that carefully and realised that if restricted to buying Vurtual hexes on impulses of movement the the faster you go the tighter you turn. Thats not right. I think I just proved the opposite there. Restrict it to impulses of none movement. The slower you go the tighter the turn.

Its late, I guess I might be blowing smoke. Been a long day.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit

HIT: High Impulse Turn

Can only be used by ships that are not using Impulse for movement (limits top speed).

Costs exactly 1 impulse power.

A direction must be specified and announced.

Execution is during the portion of the SOP where the ship would normally move.

Can only be used once / impulse but is cumulative over multiple impulses.

Port and Starboard are mutually exclusive. Using an HIT one direction resets any prior HIT the other direction to zero.

Subtracts one from the turn mode in the specified direction, resets after any turn.

Adds one to the turn mode for any turn the opposite direction, cumulative.

No chance of break down.

Can be combined with Impulse powered EM.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Loren,

I did not mean to suggest that expending a point of power to turn to port make a starboard turn harder. I was trying to argue the opposite in fact. You're paying for an advantage to turn one way. I guess I was unclear.

That said, there's no real reason save game balance that requires the player choose a turn direction. I added that as a balance to the obvious advantage of the move.

I do think it's important that the player announce when using powered turn energy even if we choose not to make the player announce a direction also.

I don't see the problem with expending one hex's of reserve warp every impulse. Could you give na example of the abuse you'd like to avoid?

Half the usage of this move is at high speed when a ship might want to turn more tightly. What I wanted to avoid was a ship moving 31 and saying "OK, +5 points of reserve warp and I turn a hex side." Next Impulse: "OK, another +5." And suddenly be turned 120 degrees in two impulses.


What we could say is that the ship does not change facing hexes until it actually moves a real hex.

Also: you can't build up hexes toward the turn following the current one. When the ship turns its turn mode is reset to 0 and any unused/unneded powered turn energy is lost.

Also: Powered turns cannot be combined with any kind of TAC.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit

"Also: Powered turns cannot be combined with any kind of TAC."

Are you sure? I thought you could HET and TAC in the same impulse.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Tos,

In this case, "Powered Turns" has nothing to do with HETs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Am I the only one who thinks that the X2 Battle speed should be higher than the X1.


Paying 4 HK and 8 EW and arming 4 fastloaded Photons the X1 cruiser is looking at going slower than her GW counterparts with a battle speed of 12.


Conversely the Klingon C7 hurtles around with a battle speed of 14 and the D7D at 13!?!


I'ld be loave to set the battle speed at anything lower for X2 ( with the possible exception of a weapons refit that didn't have a matching power refit ( if that was corrected with a latter power refit).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Yes.