Archive through June 30, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 Speed Limit: Archive through June 30, 2003
By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

I'm SO GLAD you are so all-knowing as to be able to answer my question that way...as opposed to merely "count me in the negative".

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Now, now, now...be nice, everyone. Personally, your example shows just what I'd want. I like that the 2X CA can't do all those things and still zip around at half max speed or better. If we have too much power, then EA becomes a pointless exercise. Any ship that's running with all systems full-blast should be down to a crawl, IMHO.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

MJC: I'm not sure why you would assume I would speak for anyone other than myself.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

You spoke for me. :)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Tos; reread my first line and then your answer, you'll see.


Personnally I'ld like to see the X2 ships do a lot of things and not move at a crawl.


Even if you have 40 warp engine boxes with 1.5 power each and 4 AWR ( likewise 1.5 times ) and 4 impulse the Fed XCA will need pay 24 warp to arm the Photons as 24 pointers and 5 H.K. thanks to Bridge as special thingy plus about 6 to have a fully powered A.S.I.F. plus 8 E.W. and you're looking at making a speed of 27!
And that's before we make BTTY recharging, Phaser Cap Recharging, Tractors, Transporters, SSs, WWs, EM, HETs, DamCon or Reo!

Having 16 point Fastloads makes this even worse, droping your battle speed down to 19!
And this is the fully maxed-out engines.

Having the prerefit engines also makes the battle speed a lot slower ( dropping down to 12! ).


Making a design with a battle speed a little faster than GW designs won't be a bad idea, it's not unlimited power.


This should be the X2 Dynamic. It should be able to do a lot constantly or do everything, for a finite period of time.

Huhh, whattaya-know...POWER MANAGMENT.
We shouldn't limit X2 power so that the ships crawl whilst trying to make themselves effective at battle, we should make the ships CRAWL the instant the ships need to recover from just having done everything during a battle run.
That should be the flavour of X2...dieing during the recovery period if you didn't do a good job when your Caps and Bats were full.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

Quote:

and you're looking at making a speed of 27!
And that's before we make BTTY recharging, Phaser Cap Recharging, Tractors, Transporters, SSs, WWs, EM, HETs, DamCon or Reo!

Having 16 point Fastloads makes this even worse, droping your battle speed down to 19!
And this is the fully maxed-out engines.

Having the prerefit engines also makes the battle speed a lot slower ( dropping down to 12! ).


Worse still having the engines down to GW numbers of boxes ( 1.5 times power ) and loading up 16 point fastloads drops your battle speed down to 4!


It's even worse for Destroyers if they go to the the full 4 photons but GW ( times 1.5 ) Engine Boxes then they'll practically crawl at near sublight speeds...but the Destroyers will probably have a fewer photon heavy weapon array to start with and match their final Photon Refit to their Engine refit.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

Quote:

This should be the X2 Dynamic. It should be able to do a lot constantly or do everything, for a finite period of time.



I can't speak for everyont else, but I think your vision of X2 is a lot different than most. Power management and the EA are the heart of the game; taking that away, even for a round or two, just isn't SFB to me.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 01:11 pm: Edit

I tend to agree.

It's a nice power-fantasy though. Old X2 delivers that kind of power too..and that's one of the reasons it sucks.

Also the more game aspects we change, the harder the package becomes to balance.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I wouldn't even say X2 would have NO EA for a turn or two, it'ld have have high batle speed for a turn or two.


Using Warp in the BTTYs from the prevoius turn and having 5 point BTTYs and having 40 warp engine boxes with 1.5 power each ( and 4 AWR and 4 Imp ), you'll still find a Federation ship arming 24 points into Photons ( maybe 32 ) and 8 points into EW and 5 points into H.K. and 6 points into A.S.I.F. and with her 70+25 power leaving you with 52 points for movement ( of which you'll only be able to spend 41 on our movement ) and other activities ( although the fastloaded 15 pointers would put that down to 44 availible points).
Considing that there are a lot of other things to spend power on that's still what I call limited power.

And look at what happens on the turn after.
Recharging the BTTYs from her total of 70 points of power and arming those 24 point Photons and paying for the A.S.I.F ( better safe than sorry ) and paying for EW ( to protect yourself ) and paying House keeping ( and using the Bridge as special thingy to kill drones ) and you're looking at 3 for movement and nobody has yet spoken about recharging your Phasers.


AT the lower end of the refit spectrum , the five 3 point BTTYs and 30 warp engine boxes producing 1.5 power each ( and 4 AWRs and 4 Imp ) will pay out also 24 points in Overloads, 8 in EW, 6 ASIF and 5 HK so even employing the BTTYs it'll have 17 for movement.

After that turn the 24 pointers to be rearmed and the protective ECM and the HK and ASIF AND BTTY recharging and the speed of the ship drops to -3!!!


You'll have to keep accounting and be miserly on the battle turns in order to be able to recover in the off turns. That's still requiring power managment, it's just not crawling on the turn that you're trying to arm your weapons ( it's crawling on the turn after ).

I'm not saying we have to go with these numbers or this methodology but to me it seems clear that you will need accurate accounting all the way through to avoid being stuck when the power drought hits ( when your Caps and Bats are all dry )...which is also why I'm for Caps-to-SSReo as the shield defensive deivice, as it'll cause the power drought to come much sooner unless you're willing to take a little damage to your shields.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Quote:

And look at what happens on the turn after.
Recharging the BTTYs from her total of 70 points of power and arming those 24 point Photons and paying for the A.S.I.F ( better safe than sorry ) and paying for EW ( to protect yourself ) and paying House keeping ( and using the Bridge as special thingy to kill drones ) and you're looking at 3 for movement and nobody has yet spoken about recharging your Phasers.



Well, for one thing, who said you had to re-arm your photons as 12 point fastloads every single turn? Or that you have to recharge all your x-batteries right after you use them? Anyone that tries that shouldn't be able to move; it's not good power management. An XCA with 44+ warp has enough power to move at a decent speed and fight effectively; just because you can't constantly arm or use everything and also zip along at speed 15 or so doesn't mean the ship is underpowered. I think you're expecting too much.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Paying 4 HK and 8 EW and arming 4 fastloaded Photons the X1 cruiser is looking at going slower than her GW counterparts with a battle speed of 12.


This has nothing to do with the speed limit. Stop overloading and paying for everything you want and start paying only for what you need if you want more speed.

That is the heart of the game; EA.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

Quote:

Well, for one thing, who said you had to re-arm your photons as 12 point fastloads every single turn? Or that you have to recharge all your x-batteries right after you use them?


That's exactly right, the ships still have to carefully calculate their EA, irrespective of the fact that they have more than a handful of extra warp boxes.

Quite frankly with an A.S.I.F. looking like it'll cost 2+4 and an extra point of House Keeping thanks to the bridge as special thingy the 8 points of extra power some of us have been saying is TOO much of a power increase is already gobbelled up before you even begin to think about the possibility that the new captial phasers are costing 1.5 power to run and the new defensive phasers are costing you 0.75 power to run and the heavy weapons will likely be more energy consuming.


If the fully refitted XCA is equal to a CX+DDX then the 1.66 MC and 72+ Warp power is a heck of a lot ( particularly in slower speed battles when the weapons can really be ARMED), the extra power will be pretty useful against ships that are looking at 60 warp after the final refit which are supposed to be FAR too powerful.


Quote:

An XCA with 44+ warp has enough power to move at a decent speed and fight effectively; just because you can't constantly arm or use everything and also zip along at speed 15 or so doesn't mean the ship is underpowered. I think you're expecting too much.


Perhaps so, but I think you're forgetting that I'm propossing that there be an Engine refit and that the pre engine refit vessels will have problems running along.


Quote:

Paying 4 HK and 8 EW and arming 4 fastloaded Photons the X1 cruiser is looking at going slower than her GW counterparts with a battle speed of 12.


This has nothing to do with the speed limit. Stop overloading and paying for everything you want and start paying only for what you need if you want more speed.

That is the heart of the game; EA.


So you're saying I should make a PROPOSSED BATTLE SPEEDS THREAD...I don't think so, this is good enough.


I'm not saying that a ship should go without EA, just that ship should be able to make a slightly higher battle speed WHILST GOING BANANAS than an X1 ship acting the same way.


Consider our fully refitted XCA against her opponents the Fed CX & DDX.
The fleet captain flys his two ships in the same hex, Order of Battle as CX followed by DDX ( check the asteroid rules ) such that if the DDX is popped the damage will be on the rear of the CX.

Then they both Fly in.
Eight Standard Fastloaded Photons and 15Ph-1s all get to R8.

The XCA has Four 24 point Photons and 9Ph-5s.

The XCA launches Type XII drones from her two X2G-racks to shoot down the four incomming type VIIIs...assuming X2-G-racks get the ability to launch as E-racks.

Then the XCA catches 64.5 (32 Photons + 32.5 Phasers ) but dishes out to one of the X1 ships ( probably the DDX ) some ( 24 x 0.5 x 4 + 3.5 x 9 ) 79.5 points of damage.


But here's the rub.


The XCA needs a hellovalotta power to have the battle speed advantage and thus control the range.

The DDX will be making battle speed of 11 ( so both are).

In order for the X2 cruiser to pay MC1, 5 HK, 6 ASIF, 8 EW, arm four 24 point photons and still make that battle speed or faster, it'll need a non battery power total of 54.

Having 48 warp power is not going to over blow the speed of the ships.


.


Heck, we all recognise that the DDX will probably forgo the arming of one Photon so that its speed jumps up to 19 ( the CX with its 48 total power is paying for fastload standards, full EW, HK and movement for 28 or her 48 power and thus could still be making a battle speed of 20 but chooses to move at 19 as well )...and that for a reduction in damage of 4 points.

BUT with the control of the speed comes control of the range and those X1 ships will be able to march on down to R5 ( R4 more likely ) and plaster the XCA with an extra 20 points of phaser damage ( whilst taking only an extra 13.5 ).
If they get down to R4 they're making an extra 7.5 points of phaser damage damage above and beyond that & and extra 9.33 points of photon damage ) and only taking an extra 4.5 of phaser damage ( & an extra 16 photon ) so they'll be ahead on the damage they inflict AND controlling the range pretty soon.


I hear you shout, but the XCA can forgo arming weapons to have extra speed and control the range.
BUT ISN'T THAT ENERGY MANAGMENT...forgoing a small ability to inflict damage ( like ignoring one of your 24 point photons is small ) in order to avoid a lot of damage.


The CX & DDX sum is a hellovalotta Shield #7 and a lot of shield boxes to work through, having the ability to keep the range long ( with proper consideration of the battlespeed your enemy will choose ) should be the aspect that X2 gets to balance that back....it's either that or a hell of a lotta shield and hull boxes.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Michael, a Fed TCC can overload all torps, pay for HK, put up 6 EW(well it cant in tourney but for the sake of argument) and go speed 12.

Your XC with HK, 4 fastloads, and 8EW will have the same speed.

Hmmm, 4 fastloads and 8 ew vs. 4 regular overloads and 6 ew.

I don't see the problem here at all.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Well I'ld be looking at a pre-refit speed of 12 and post refit speed of 27, but I suspect I'm the only one willing to have 30 and latter 40 warp engine boxes generating 1.5 power per box.


(30 + 4) x 1.5 would under everybody else's interpretation be 45 Warp & 6 AWR/SaucerWarp or there-abouts.
48 Warp and 4 AWR/SaucerWarp will probably be just fine and generate a "common" battlespeed of 13, so lets not give people the Heeby-geebies with reference to 44 Warp and 2 AWR being on the outer limit of acceptability.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 01:10 pm: Edit

...like I said, it's a nice power fantasy.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Quote:

Well I'ld be looking at a pre-refit speed of 12 and post refit speed of 27, but I suspect I'm the only one willing to have 30 and latter 40 warp engine boxes generating 1.5 power per box.



Yup, I'd say you are. 60 points of warp on a cruiser?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit

Quote:

...like I said, it's a nice power fantasy.


Fantasy you...and the horse you road in on.


If your not going to put forward a counter arming regime and battle speed to stand behind then don't weigh into this particular debate.


Some people might want the XCA to move with the above arming but without the A.S.I.F. and that might be a good place to make one's stand but to just go and declair something ( probably only because I'm backing it and anything MJC backs has got to be lousey ) to be FANTASY proves that you have a very egocentric mentality, because you think if you didn't come up with it then it has to be second rate.
I could think of some names to call you but let's stick with...you are a map of Tasmania.


Quote:

Yup, I'd say you are. 60 points of warp on a cruiser?


Like I said, 48 Warp and 4 AWR/SaucerWarp will probably be the point ( no refit for the cruisers ) that X2 cruisers are built around.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Fantasy you...and the horse you road in on.

Just saw that, did you? :)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Quote:

Some people might want the XCA to move with the above arming but without the A.S.I.F. and that might be a good place to make one's stand but to just go and declair something ( probably only because I'm backing it and anything MJC backs has got to be lousey ) to be FANTASY proves that you have a very egocentric mentality, because you think if you didn't come up with it then it has to be second rate.



No, that isn't it. He's simply saying that he thinks your personal desire to have SC2, MC1 X2 cruisers running around with 60 points of warp power is a bad idea. This is expressly what he's addressing, and you made it very clear that that was the kind of 2X you'd like to see...

Quote:

Well I'ld be looking at a pre-refit speed of 12 and post refit speed of 27, but I suspect I'm the only one willing to have 30 and latter 40 warp engine boxes generating 1.5 power per box.



His criticism has nothing to do with it being your idea; I'm sure if I or anyone else had suggested it, we'd be facing the fire as well.

You have to admit, you do seem to want a much, much more powerful 2X than anyone else and have made any number of arguments to try to sway us to agreement. It won't work, no matter how eloquently you wax on about power shortages, "low" battle speeds, or what have you because you are on a totally different track than the rest of us.

Example: You argue that a Fec XCA that fastloads all his photons, puts up max EW and HK is in trouble because he has a "low" battle speed of 12. I don't look at it as a low battle speed; I look at it as a remarkable cruiser that can somehow still manage to move at a decent clip while paying for all that stuff. It's just a matter of perception. This is not an attack, by the way; just an attempt to explain why you are being disagreed with.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Bottom line: If you (MJC) want to follow your own inspiration, put together your own proposal. We've chosen to limit things in ways SVC has not asked us, but you don't have to.

As long as an equal-BPV X2 vs. GW has a 50-50 chance of either side winning, SVC doesn't care at this point how powerful an X2 ship is.

We have chosen to power down X2 for ease of balancing it. Feel free to put together the X2 you'd like to see. For all our debates, we're not the final clearing authority for what X2 will look like.

Make your own rules. Compose SSD's. Run playtests. Post the resuts here. You may surprise us.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 05:07 pm: Edit

I just got my CL26 and I must say that I suspect that we have had an infuance on X2's future as it is mentioned as a future product! Very cool!

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Yeah, it's in there along with everything else. And it was in Cap 25, and Cap 24 and Cap 23 etc. etc. etc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Yes, CFant, but did you notice Xorkalien War for F&E?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 06:19 pm: Edit

It makes sense. We've put a lot of effort into X2, which inicates a degree of profitable interest.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

I thought it was pretty abovious that J.T. was saying that the 48 Engine Warp plus 4 AWR/Saucer was too much.


I think of it like this...
HK, Full EW, Full Overloads on a C7 will make a battle speed of 14.
HK, Full EW, Full Overloads on a D7D will make a battle speed of 13.
H.K. Full EW, Full Fastloads on a CX will make a battle speed of 12.

It seems pretty reasonable to me that going the same way and making a battle speed of 11-15 would be just right...and that's pretty much our old friend; the 48 warp engine boxes.

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