This topic is intended to discuss what "Early Warp" Romulans would look like. If it can be cleaned up enough for SSJ, great. If not, we can at least argue over what could have been.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Please forgive this long post. I just thought it would help with the discussion if I would give a (relatively) quick explanation of what I mean by "Early Warp Romulans".

When I first saw the Early Years section of CL12, I immediately began to think of conjectural Early Warp Romulans. (Sorry, but regardless of how balanced they may be, flying sublight ships against warp capable ships just isn't that fun.)

Originally (when there were only "Y" series ships), I had envisioned the Early Warp Romulans as fully capable counterparts, without concern for what they would eventually look like.

Then, when working on Y1, I took an idea from John Kim and submitted the "Star Drive Romulans". The idea was that they had an inferior warp engine (the Star Drive) which gave them tactical speeds of up to 8. The story was fixed to allow the GW (and later) Romulans to be the same, but the proposal was rejected for a variety of very good reasons.

After that, I went back to proposing a set of conjectural Romulans that had warp drive in the Early Years. It would still be inferior to everyone else's (so the Treaty of Smarba would still have a reason to happen), but would at least get them moving faster than "1".

Now, after seeing the discussions (in the wrong groups ), I am thinking that, if we are going to work to have warp capable Romulans that have to be conjectural, why not let them be just as capable, then figure out what the history should be? That way, instead of just working on just eight ships (EY versions of the VL, WE, FE, SE, FA, BH, WH, SN), a whole array is opened up: what replaces the KR and Hawk-series ships?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Hmmm...

The world of KD4's opens up...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Actually, no. That's kinda the point, too. If the Romulans follow the normal warp development path, they will have no need for the Treaty of Smarba.

No treaty, no YKR (which is what I called the ship).

Well, except for any *captured* in battle ...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 09:42 pm: Edit

The Treaty would still make sense if the Roms stalled at some point in the EY development timeline.

It would also make sense if the Klinks and Roms decided to agree to pester the Feds. There's still "enemy of my enemy".

Besides, we can't leave the kestrel guys out in the cold, especially if it's all conjectural. We're waving our hands to begin with.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 09:52 pm: Edit

If we're postulating a universe where the Roms develop warp "normally", ie at the same time as everyone else, then there is no need for the Treaty of Smarba, whatsoever.

Also, in addition to "expanding into ISC territory", what if the Roms also got into Tholian hex, but had colonies gobbled up instead of the Klingons? THAT would put a different spin on things, too!

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

John,

It wasn't the Romulans that initiated the Treaty of Smarba, it was the Klingons.

If the Romulans stalled (as I was proposing), then the treaty would probably go through as recorded, with the resulting KR ships. (I.e. the conjectural history and the "real" history would be identical, or nearly so, from Y159, on.)

Do note that the treaty would never have occurred any earlier. There was no need for the Klingons to do anything like that until the Feds tried their power games. Prior to that, the treaty just couldn't have happened.

If the Romulans did not stall, but followed the "standard" warp development path, the treaty would never have occurred. And there is no guarantee that the Klingons and Romulans would have been allies. It is much more likely they would have fought.

The situation would have been "the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy" because the Romulans would have been trying to kill both of them! The Romulans only accepted the treaty because they *had* to; there was no real option. If they were as advanced as everyone else, they would not have needed to, and their pride would not have allowed them.

True, we are waving our hands. But even then, the Klingons are still the Klingons and the Romulans are still the egotistical bas... uh, still the Romulans. And those considerations will rule out a lot of options.

Finally, please note that I LIKE the kestral ships! I like them better than both the Eagles and the Hawks. I wish I could legitimately include EY versions of them, and even have my designs of them on my webpage. But it just doesn't work out, even conjecturally.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Gary,

That would change things up a bit ...

It might make the Klingons moderately tolerant of the Tholians as they would then serve as a barrier to further Romulan aggression. They might have even willingly sold disruptors to the Tholians to help them out!

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit

In my opinion, creation of a whole Romulan TO&E based upon them creating warp along the normal timeline and expanding upon it is too great in scope and too divergent from the SFU.

On the other hand, giving the pre-Smarba Romulans limited warp capability, even if half the warp speed of other ships (6 in W-, 12 in Y- and 16 in MY), would only require new SSDs and BPVs for the 8 core ships and perhaps a few other changes (fighters, etc.). This change would not impact the GW and would not effect the SFU, except to make the Y66-Y150 games more fun to play.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Mike,

How would the Roms and Klingons fight?

It's not like they share a border. They would have to go through Fed or Tholian space to get to each other.

Being unable to fight a reasonable war with each other makes for a natural alliance when interests overlap. backstabbing becomes difficult.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

They did share a border at one point. In fact, IIRC, the Klingons were planning to invade the Roms but the Tholians showed up and put a crimp in their plans.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:55 am: Edit

...but the Tholians are there through much of EY, right? I don't have the module.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:57 am: Edit

I like the idea of a wholesale new Romulan fleet design if one wants to hang a conjectural product around it. I don't want to see EY KR variants producing grandfather's Smarba. I expect the initial batch of Romulan warp designs will resemble cut-down versions of the Old Series Warp craft but followons will diverge.

Some key questions would be which of the defining old Romulan characteristics would remain:

Armor: I expect that to be excluded from designs once shields get truly thick.

Balanced shields: will the Romulans stick with all around shields or move to standard heavier shields in front? I think balanced even if they get more speed.

Weapons: More coverage of blind arcs but largely unchanged.

Ability to land on planets would be retained even at the cost of other operational traits.

Romulans are light in other support systems so I expect those would be increased but not by much. Romulans should still have the smallest ships but not by as much.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

The primary reason I posted the question about EY warp Roms was that i am working on some EY campaign rules, using a tech block system for R&D. I can't very well exclude the Roms from researching Warp technology now can I?

Thus was born the need to have some W, Y and M series vessels for them to build once they reach the requisite benchmarks.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 02:47 am: Edit

In that case, and with no kestrels available, you either design totally new stuff or some version of a EY firehawk (non-modular, naturally)

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 04:11 am: Edit

It's gotta be all new designs. Remember, the Eagle, Hawk, and Snipe classes were all originally built as impulse ships and later upgraded to warp. A second upgrade on the same hull, while possible, isn't a good idea. After all, all of the other races built new hulls after they developed warp, so there is no reason the Roms wouldn't do exactly the same thing.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 04:53 am: Edit

On the other hand, only the Rom sublight designs were so sound that a direct derivative could use X-tech (KEX).

Possible alternative history that allows both early warp Roms and KRs: The Romulan 'empire' was, for most of it's history, an empire in name only, with near constant civil strife. Gorns are able to beat back any attempted invasions through Rom disunity rather than superior tech, but do not advance into Rom space to avoid forcing the Roms to cooperate.

The treaty of Smarba was between the Klingons and a (then) minor warlord. With heavy Klingon aid (KR series) and Klingon methods, s/he manages to become dominant over the other warlords, creating a true government for the first time. To secure it's power, the production of the old Eagle series ships, previously built in a hundred local shipyards, is banned (thougha little construction continues in secret) and construction of a powerful, modern fleet of revolutionary design is begin in a centralised shipyard under tight imperial control.

By Tim Longacre (Timl) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 07:21 am: Edit

Please note one thing about EY Romulans with warp, or something comparable. What, exactly, is preventing them from wiping out much, if not all, of the early Federation? When we playtested the EY module YEARS ago at the Pundys', we did a Fed vs. Gorn game. The Feds were slaughtered, and the Gorns only had G-torps. With R-torps, and the nubmber of ships the Roms produce, the Feds may as well be a historical footnote (no overloads, no drones, no prox photons, no P-1s to hold the Roms off).

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 07:51 am: Edit

So the scientific might of the Federation would have gotten into gear earlier, developing new weapon systems, but not being so interested in peaceful exploration. Instead of balanced cruiser type ships you'd have seen war cruisers from an early date.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 09:14 am: Edit

Possibly, or even more interesting would be more advanced national ships. Andorian or Rigellian DN's, perhaps, as the first ships to get GW style tech like proxies and overloads.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:03 am: Edit

John,

The Tholians appeared somewhere around Y70. Prior to that, if the Romulans had warp, they could have easily been the ones with the colonies at Kalesta (or whatever its name was). There would have been skirmishes prior to that, and lingering restentment after that.

Besides which, there is no reason the Feds are guaranteed to have reached their Y102 borders. They likely would not have gone much south of the Orion province if the Romulans were active with warp. That leaves plenty of room for a small border with the Klingons above the Tholians.

(Though, if they will be killed off as Tim mentions, we may have to adjust things to keep it reasonably level. The Feds don't have to keep their Y102 borders, but they should still prosper.)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Tim. With hull to hull BPVs more on par with the warp capable races, I don't see slow warp capable EY Roms being game breakes. Tough, yes, but not game breakers.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:32 pm: Edit

A while back, we had a campaign that used early-year Romulans. The biggest change was dropping the War Eagle to a light cruiser. Same SSD, but the torpedo dropped to G/S, and move cost was reduced to 2/3 (or 3/4?). Engine sizes were adjusted depending on the year. This provided a much more reasonable ship for early battles.

The type-R War Eagle was rewritten to be a limited variant with a higher move cost, and was made obsolete by the (conjectural) Falcon heavy cruisers.

(And someday I'll find where I hid all the SSD's.)

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Is this project to develop a set of conjectural warp capable Rom ships for campaigns (and fun pickup games)? Or is it to develop an entire alternative history. I believe that the current history of sublight Romulans is set in stone and won't be changed (and trying to do so is not only pointless, but likely to damage the entire concept).

If it is the former (and IMHO what it should be), Smarba is irrelevant. The ships never existed. Put them in the Klingon and Gorn simulators--the reason for the prime team actions. The former did EY Kesterel class ships (in preparation for the invasion of the Romulans). The latter did EY versions of the old style ships. I suppose if someone really wanted to get creative, put EY Hawks in the Fed simulators (who knows how they got there--time warp?). These should be fully functional. Basically with standard warp profiles as the other races (or maybe on the light side for the old style ones since even in the MY period they're short on warp). These could be done either with (or without) the mask and veil (or maybe even Kestrel without and old style with--reflecting the different dates when the simulator efforts started).

If the plan is an entire alternative history, I suggest it is massive overkill. People are already talking about altering the entire geopolitical landscape; which will require an entirely new set of ships not just for the Romulans, but for everyone (as effects ripple outward--eg, the better Feds force better Klingons and Kzinti who force better Lyrans who either eliminate the Hydrans or force better Hydrans...). This isn't a SSJ entry, but an entire product line (and is probably best discussed in the GPD alternative realty thread).

I don't really like the "Star Drive" idea. It seems to be just an attempt at an alternative history (albeit one without quite as large of a set of implications as above), but essentially gives the worst of both possibilities. The ships are still slow (and probably not too much fun to play) and are still not historical. And worse, can't even be called a plausible simulator race.

I realize that campaigns that use these ships followed by the historical ships will experience somewhat of a "disconnect." But just call it a Romulan ship design breakthrough and keep on going.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

David,

*My* intent for the Early Warp Romulans is to give them speed 8 "W" series ships and speed 16 "Y" speed ships. These are conjectural, but balanced. This will produce 16 ships (WVL, WWE, WFE, WSE, WBH, WWH, WSN, YVL, YWE, YFE, YSE, YCE, YFA, YBH, YWH, YSN).

The conjectural history still results in the Smarba Treaty, so no further ships are necessary. While some may not view this as important, I still think it is, because it lets the conjectural components still fit within an "historical" context.

That is what *I* mean by "Early Warp Romulans".

However, someone else suggested making the Romulans fully capable (i.e. speed 16 W-series and speed 24 Y-series). If that is done, then that could be the end of it, but it there would be no "continuation". In other words, the changes caused by that would be so vast, that there is no real way to fully conjecture what the resulting "history" would be.

But it could also serve as an excuse to create the "truly Romulan" GW (and later) era ships that some people seem to want to see. Yes, that would be a much bigger project that what I planned on, but it could be done in pieces, and it could still be quite fun.

Don't worry about the "Star Drive" stuff. I mentioned it just to show where the idea has come from and what shapes it has taken to get to where I currently am with it. While the Star Drive submission was meant to be historical, the submission was rejected. Besides which, I have posted the Star Drive material on my webpage, so hopefully it is now completely "unusable".

NOTHING in this discussion should be taken as a request to actually change anything. The "real" EY Romulans are sublight, always were sublight and always will be sublight. The idea of Early Warp Romulans is solely meant as a conjectural effort to give the Romulans warp capable ships.