Hopefully, if the thread progresses, we will see several different but fun concepts for warp capable Romulans. Then bits of history can be generated to suggest how the Romulan fleet would build other ships. The history may be conjectural but I would rather have ships that follow from a history than the checkbox matching style common to most conjectural proposals. I don't want the conjectural Romulans to generate a destroyer leader in Y145 simply because that follows the Klingon F5C.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Let's assume that, with the effects of the Y67 Vanguard raid less devastating, the Romulans have a fleet with even merely speed 6 limited tactical warp by Y90.

In the original timeline, the Romulans, armed only with NTW ships, manage to score impressive victories in Y90-91 against the warp-refitted Gorn. Even with Y cruisers coming on line in Y91, the Gorn couldn't drive the tactically sublight Romulans back into Romulan space until Y96. How badly, then, would the Gorn fare against even limited warp Romulans?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

When giving warp early to the Romulans you have to assume two things:
- The Romulans would have some disadvantage to go with it. In my case, I drop the power of their R torps.
- The Gorns would no longer need to be "held back". They would instead use the "normal" development timeline. (To state this more strongly, they (and, if necessary, the Feds) would develop whatever is required to keep things balanced.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Mike West.

Point 1. With slow enough speeds and appropriate BPVs, I don't think the R-torp would need to be downgraded.

Point 2. The Romulans would still be at a huge strategic disadvantage compared to the Paravians who are fully warp capable.

Heck, you could even maintain the sub-light shuttles and fighters, declaring that their flawed warp engine designs could not be fitted for units of that size.

1. Warp Engines for speed = 1/2 Gorn speed of year.
2. Impulse engines reduced to GW sizes
3. BPV raised, comparable to Gorn ships of same class.
4. Mask/Veil do not working when using warp power for movement (or perhaps veil functions as mask if using warp power..?)
5. No other changes (i.e. keep lasers, good shields, tracks, sub-light shuttles, etc.)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Regarding Y90 warp Roms:

It would depend on what grouping of technology the Romulans got. EY history gives the Romulans better shields, seeking plasma, masking device and improved tractors. Don't overlook the mobility effects of the last element. The Gorns meanwhile are still wrapping up the Paravian situation and the prototype Y series ships are probably tracking down Paravian Y ships. Therefore, the Gorn defended the Rom border with mostly W-series ships probably still armed with missiles. Those would be adequate against the S-series Roms but significantly disadvantaged against W-series Roms. Throw in captains who have never seen seeking plasma before and the early parts of that war would have included very heavy Gorn losses.

Give the Romulans limited warp but leave off the masking device and seeking plasma and the W-series Gorns would be facing a challenge similar but slower than the QC armed Paravians, a fight the Gorns can readily win. Give the Romulans warp, seeking plasma, and an affordable masking device usable at warp speeds, and the Romulans will sweep space up to the point problems protecting the supply lines show up. Somewhere in between lies an interesting balanced fight.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Andy,

You chose to restrict everything *but* plasma. (Which is a valid approach.) I chose to restrict plasma, but give them everything else (phasers, transporters, tractors, warp). Either way works.

My point was that you can't take a WE, give it EY restrictions, and expect everything to work. There have to be additional restrictions over that.

The funny part is that what you are suggesting is *exactly* my Star Drive submission in all but name.

The reason I have shifted away from that direction is because I figure that if we are going to make some conjectural Romulans, then we might as well let them have everything. Sure, that results in something "less flavorful" (or whatever), but, honestly, if someone wants an EY Romulan that uses warp drives, like everyone else, aren't they also going to want to use transporters, tractors and phasers, like everyone else?

Therefore, instead of taking a sublight Romulan ship and seeing what we can do to make it "interesting", I want to take a "true" EY-WE with full EY technology and see what we have to reduce to make it work.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:57 pm: Edit

BTW, as regards the Gorns, my goal would be to keep the ships the same.

I expect that they will improve their technology at a faster (i.e. "normal") rate, and they may have a larger fleet, but the ships won't change.

And while I do hope to see a Gorn YDN, I don't want a "YBC" or anything like that. I think the whole "put a bubble on the back" idea was a MY "invention".

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:23 pm: Edit

RWW. See CL21. The Gorns W-ships were upgraded to both Plasma Cannon (bolt only plasma) and phasers in the late Y60's

Mike. There are things I find fun and flavorful about the current EY Romulans:

FUN:
lasers, lack of technology balanced by landing ability, fighters, bombers, cloak precursors

NOT FUN:
speed 1 - can tac once and/or move on impulse 32

I guess I will have to take a better look at your Stardrive. I'd like to use the EY Roms in my EY campaign rules, but there is currently no interest in my group to either play with or against sub-light ships.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

For the record (per Y1 page 23) the Roms developed the Masking Device in Y88; the Veiling Device replaced it in Y110 (approximate date, not yet defined), and the Cloaking Device replaced that in Y140.

Rule YG13.11 states that "... Masking and Veiling Devices can never be installed on a ship with warp engine power."

In other words, it's a moot point, don't worry about the Early Warp Roms having a Cloak, Veil, or Mask. It's aleady decided that they don't.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Gary. Per Y1, EY Rom ships don't have Warp Engines either. As part of this discussion, we have three options:

1. Mask and Veil don't exist
2. Mask and Veil only function if no warp is being used for movement
3. Mask and Veil work on warp capable ships just fine; we just have to balance the BPVs.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Gary,

As Andy points out, these will be conjectural ships. As such, the Mask and Veil can work if it is decided it is worthwhile.

BTW, as the person who wrote that sentence, the reason for including that is the Orions. I did NOT want to see any EY Orions running around with a Masking (or Veiling) device. The easiest way to prevent that was the "doesn't work with warp" rule you quoted.

So, if we do decide to let the Mask (and/or Veil) work with warp, something will likely need to be done to keep it out of Orion hands.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

Andy: I forgot about the W's with phasers and bolts. But the principle still applies. The Gorn fleet on the Romulan border was comprised of slow ships with short ranged weapons who are very vulnerable to seeking plasma, especially before the Gorns start preparing weasels as a matter of course. Ships without seeking plasma would not necessarily produce as favorable results for the Romulans as the fleet they introduced in Y90 in the official history.

By Derek Lenzi (Catdude) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:57 am: Edit

For me, the need for the Early Warp Roms is primarily for free campaignes, but also to give a slight credibility to their offensive efforts against the Gorn, which is hard for me to swallow with S-class ships. They have to have handicaps sufficient to drive them to the Smarba treaty, resulting in KRs, and the latter ships.
The concept of equal early development with different latter Rom ships, and no KR's, I'm not interested.

How to keep mask and veil from the Orions? I like the idea of it doesn't work when warp is used. Technobabble: Warp power is too great for mask or veil to hide. Or we could say the Orion's warp engines are incompatible, wrong flux or frequency. And at this time I opine that most of the pirate fleet is Q-ships and armed freighters. The war vessel Orion pirate are extremely rare for the first thirty years. Have to recheck rules, but I don't recall any freighter hulls with any concealment device.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 03:58 am: Edit

Derek: I like the idea of conjectural true Romulans designs developed without Klingon influences in the Middle Years and General War more than EY Warp Roms. EY Warp Roms are such simple modifications that I just play around with making my own changes the SSDs.

Keeping Device out of Orion hands. If the Device does not work at warp, then the Warp Romulans either discard the device or ignore the warp depending on the exact value. Therefore, if the device was invented by the warp Roms, it works at warp. About the only solution would be to require the Orion to place a mask dev or veil in an option mount (or even 2). Assume the larger size of cruder designs and all the connectors can not be easily fit into a ship without kicking out other systems. Pirates would not bother with a system that effectively defangs them at great expense.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 08:15 am: Edit

That, or the primitive stealth systems are woven into/beside the shield grid, and are an integral part of the hull. That kind of expense is not something that the Orions wil like, especially if they want to be able to change the operating characteristics of their ships on a regular basis.

There simply is no *small* item that can you can point to and say "This is a cloaking device."

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 11:23 am: Edit

RWW. The Gorn W-ships (with phasers and PlasCannons) don't fare badly against the seeking weapon Romulans now. In Y90, the Roms would still have speed 6 warp capabiliy (since I am suggesting they gain warp speed levels at the same rate as the Gorns), not something that would impact those games a great deal (especially with the increase in BPV meaning the Gorns will be facing FEWER plasma in even BPV battles). When, in Y95-100, the Romulans get up to speed 12, the Paravians are old news and the Y-ships will be on the Romulan front.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Since these are conjectural ships with no history, it doesn't matter whether veil/masking work with them or not. They're not real so it has no impact on real ships. If playing with them in a campaign just state that veil/masking work on Romulan warp capable ships and not on others [no need for a reason--the situation is already conjectural].

Now it could be that they should be limited on warp capable ships to keep them fun. But IMHO, that is the only argument to consider. The entire reason for making these ships is fun and that is the only criteria to be used (I consider "balanced" to be part of this).

In the same vein, the historical reaction of the Gorn (or others) is irrelevant. They never saw these ships so they never had to react to them. All that is important is that at equivalent BPV the battles are fun to play from both sides. By definition, they should be automatically balanced (otherwise there is a wrong BPV somewhere).

Mike W, My complaint with the "Star Drive" concept wasn't the entire concept, but specifically the slower speeds. I don't see how being slow (although faster than speed 1) is really going to be fun until they're the same speed as their opponents. Sure it will probably be less annoying than speed 1, but I still don't see it as fun.

This might work if they have the same powercurve as they would with speed 16/24 but don't actually have enough warp (ie they're forced to divert the power to non-movement). This would make it more of an occasional issue (and tactical constraint) than a continual issue.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 12:16 am: Edit

David Kass. Even being able to go 1/2 the speed of their Gorn opponents would give a big increase in "fun-factor." It also removes some of the cheesy Gorn tactics, like launching weasels 20 hexes away and moving forward at speed 4. As such, it would be a HUGE improvement over the current state of affairs, yet would maintain the Romulan "flavor" of having had their warp lab hit by a Gorn Prime Team (in this case, it was heavily damaged, not completely destroyed).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 02:46 am: Edit

David Kass: Part of considering the impact of conceptual Warp Romulans is that it might spark intriguing or fun other alternate pieces. Gorns and Orions seem likely beneficiaries of this. There is a different feel to a thought out conjectural history and a bunch of SSDs plopped down. Just consider how much the Peladine "history" improved them compared to other unreal races.

A considerably slower speed plus a cloak variant is an option I dislike mostly because it replicates the War Eagle/Snipe A situation.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:16 am: Edit

---

Quote:

A considerably slower speed plus a cloak variant is an option I dislike mostly because it replicates the War Eagle/Snipe A situation.

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:44 pm: Edit

David,

The whole point of increasing the Romulans' speed, even if not to that of their opponent, is to give them at least SOME options.

Heck, even if they still can't move, but can at least do some warp TACs, it would be HUGE improvement.

As for the Star Drive, it ended up giving them a decent amount of power. The Star Drive was very inefficient, so it took two boxes to generate a point of movement. This means that if they move max speed, they are power starved (like EY ships in general), but if they move at 4, or even 6, they get some free power to play with.

As to "history" regarding conjectural Romulans, I still think it is important to keep in mind what the opponents would have to do. Sure, its not "real", but it still helps to know what everyone else would have to do to cope with the changed situation.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Mike. What about Warp engines whose power can ONLY be used for movement (i.e. movement, TACs, HETs), not even to recharge batteries (i.e. no midturn speed changes). Combine this with a 4-6 breakdown and no HET bonus.

1. This doesn't really impact their current power curves, at worst giving them one extra power (the impulse they would use for movement).
2. Is so obviously inefficient that Smarba is still a must; it displays definate effects of the Gorn Vanguard Team attack.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Andy,

I'm not that wild about that, as it effectively gives them "free" movement. It totally decouples movement from energy allocation, and I don't know that that is a direction we necessarily want to go in.

The core disagreement is this: You are trying to keep the "historical" Romulans, but give them some movement. David wants to give them full EY tech. That is a fundamental disconnect that pretty much keeps you both talking past each other.

I am somewhere in the middle and, quite frankly, I haven't decided on my full position. My initial position is that I want them to have full EY tech, but with some limitations so that the Smarba Treaty would still have a reason to exist.

But I do admit I am being seduced by the idea of just using full EY tech with the *intention* that Smarba would not exist.

Regardless, I would like to give the Romulans phasers, transports, warp shuttles, etc., because, if we are going to go through the troule of making conjectural Romulans, we might as well bring them up to speed as far as possible.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:06 am: Edit

The Roms developed the Mauler and had it in service before anyone else. But it did not work for a number of reasons. What if the Roms decided to work on inproving the mauler instead of plasma torps?

For example, they don't develop swivel mounts for plasma, but figure out some way of improving the mauler's firing arc? Or batteries that hold more than one point of power? Or along the same line, figured out an improved way of bolting a torp that emulated mauler technology?

Just throwing out some ideas ... be sure to aim above my head when you shoot them down!

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:58 am: Edit

Gary: Somehow it seems a bit odd to jump the Romulan mauler to a better standard in the normal history, especially considering that the mauler will rank near the high end of EY weapons.

Maybe we should try setting up a few sample tests. I had done and enjoyed WE with phaser-2s and no cloak, which makes for a fair challege to the various YCAs (except the Klingon which has problems because of the awkward phaser arcs). I did not like the time I tried out the Star Drive rules.