(D15.841) ABILITES IN REMOTE AREA COMBAT: Commando Squads have increased abilities in both performing and responding to Search and Destroy Operations.
- If the S&D force is entirely on foot (no vehicles of shuttles) and includes at least one Commando Squad +1 to (D15.761).
- If the hiding force includes at least one Commando squad and includes no shuttles -1 to (D15.761).
- If the hiding force includes at least one Commando Squad, the force may increase the number of contacted units (D15.762) by two. One of these must be the commando squad. Each commando squad in the hiding force may use this ability, even multiple in the same battle, though no unit may use this more than once per turn.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 07:27 am: Edit

I'm surprised I've gotten no comments about this one, considering all of the comments on the ATHWS

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Here's a comment:

Adding a Commando ability makes sense theoretically, but I'd have to playtest this to see if it would work, and I don't have time right now.

But the whole "adding ground force stuff" is a good idea I think. I think ground combat is an area of SFB that needs to be explored more, more scenarios, etc.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 05:32 pm: Edit

I think nobody has really commented because it just sounds like a good idea. The ATHWS, I think, will take some more arguing about to stick, but the idea of a Commando squad - as written above - fits well with what players have mentally associated with the role of the unit.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

John & Xander. Thanks - I was just afraid for a bit there that it was so out there that no one deemed it worthy of comment

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 11:37 pm: Edit

I gave it a quick look and think it is considerably over powered in terms of its multiplier effects on ordinary BPs. I don't see a single commando team being able to rapidly train personnel into better techniques. Now, those rules might work if the unit was entirely composed of commandoes. The effects might still be unreasonable but if one player wants to form such an expensive stack of doom, a few benefits might as well follow.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 07:14 am: Edit

RWW. Where do you see it as overpowered?

1) Gives the same bonus as a force all using vehicular transport and doesn't stack with that bonus. Commandes can do some scouting and can point out the most likely places to look

2) Can "cancel" the +1 for hiding units having vehicles, equals the 5 or fewer bonus and stacks with that bonus. Commandoes can work to hide other friendly units, having a better understanding of camouflage, cover, location, etc.

3) This allows +1 Commando Squad and +1 other unit PER commando squad. You can already voluntarily reduce the number found by up to 50%, this allows a modest increase (in most cases, 2 BPs per CS) Commandoes are trained for ambush tactics

I posted these to better explain things. I provided these because currently, despite being twice the cost, Commando Squads have no bonuses/abilities beyond what a BP can do. Please help me understand why you think its overpowered.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Andy: Consider it as other units.

1) Exactly. This is equivalent to getting a truck for every 4 BPs without the difficulties of getting trucks to the planet. Vehicle bonuses are rendered obsolete.

2) They may be able to hide, but having a single small team able to conceal hundreds in all cases still seems implausible.

3) Each commando unit is now effectively half an Admin shuttle in addition to their other properties. Much of the decision making regarding preserving shuttles is rendered irrelevant.

With these changes, each commando squad should cost in excess of 3 BPV if the search mission properties was capped at a low level. (Value based on trucks doubled plus 50% of shuttle.) Commandoes already have a very useful property in causing landing craft to crash on the planet. These extra properties are excessive bonuses and remove most of the challenging decisions in priortizing usage and landing order.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Andy,

I have to agree with Richard.

In general, commandoes should have no real extra defensive abilities. Their primary use is offensive. Also, a unit on foot is still a unit on foot.

In light of the other conversations about the ATHWS and the AAV, I think the ability of the commando units would be something like as follows:

For each Commando present, the attacker is allowed to allocate specific allocation at 1:1 against a control station. Additionally, they are not subject to the requirement of D15.124, that all GDS must be destroyed before specific allocation can be made against a control station.

I think this is in the true nature of commando units.

Dave

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Richard. OK - I can see how in larger battles 1 and 2 could be unbalancing. For #3, I don't see it as a big problem because as soon as they're in combat, they get directed on and killed, unlike Admins which stay around a bit longer.

Dave. I'd prefer to do something to "spruce up" remote combat. Also remember that GCS cannot be controlled, just captured. Letting Commandoes capture GCS without the other requirements (winning the battle, etc.) is far too large of a bonus.

1) How about allowing a CS to give this bonus if there are 4 or fewer BPs per Commando Squad?

2) How about each CS can hide ONE vehicle, removing the bonus for a vehicle being in the hiding force if all are hidden.

3) How about CS can add ITSELF to any Remote Area combat, in addition to those indicated by the die roll?

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Andy,

How is allowing a commando capture a GCS that large of a bonus, it can just be taken back. And again, once this is done, the commando will be a target?

I also could see a bonus against a GDS.

Your last set of proposals is OK.

Dave

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 03:44 am: Edit

It took me a while, but I finally realized what my problem with the rule is.

In SFB, commandoes are designed for ship combat (all their boni are useful in fighting in ships/shuttles). This would seem to imply that all their training is in fighting in ship (inculding both allied and enemy ships). They have nothign to do with fighting in the open (and I'd argue that given their ship training needs, they don't have the time to ALSO train for ground warfare). Note that in ship to ship combat (H&R raids), commandoes are a huge benifit (I try to take them whenever possible--at 1 BPV each they almost underpriced as is).

I realize this may not match the current definition of a commando (one could argue they do fit the definition--they destroy pinpoint targets covertly and are difficult to stop), but I'd prefer to think of them as "misnamed" (by our standards) than to increase their abilities. Note that in SFU ship to ship fighting is as (if not more) important than combat on planetary surfaces (remeber that bases fall in the ship to ship category). Commandoes do get their boni for action inside small ground bases (so they aren't "useless" in planetary combat).

The ideas you suggest are interesting. And modulo Richard's concerns, I would suggest modifying this proposal to be for a new type of unit, a scout BP. One that is trained for special (aka commando) operations on a planetary surface.

If a player wants a ground unit that is very good in both space and on the surface, they can go with a prime team (it has the commando advantages in space and the HWS advantages on the surface). This seems to be the level of training/skill (and cost) necessary for the multi-environment capabilities. And if your idea gets incorperated as a scout, I don't doubt that a PT would be able to take on that role as well...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 08:35 am: Edit

Dave Cross.
1) He who controls the GCS controls the GDS (so this could be an instant addition of 6 OffPot) (D15.123)
2) He who controls the majority of GCS gains +1 to a die roll (+1 casualty) (D15.116)

Dave Kass.
Some valid points. My "inspiration" for doing this was that GMGs come with 2 Commando Squads yet the uses of Commando Squads in Ground Combat are extremely limited (and how often do ground units board ships?).
You are correct that this concept might be better served by creating a SCOUT SQUAD unit that can replace a COMMANDO SQUAD at no BPV difference, gains the above abilities, but loses the Commando Ship-Ship Abilities. Ships would prefer the latter while ground bases and some troop transports might prefer the former.

PRIME TEAMS should probably get both sets of abilities.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 09:19 am: Edit

Andy,

I know the benefit of the GCS and GDS. That was my point.

If you think it too powerful, each commando scout allows specific allocation at 1:1 to be made against a GDS (thus two points of specific allocation from any source). This is not bad.

But definitely, the commando should be focused on offensive capability.

Dave

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

Dave. Yes, I think the capture of GCS is way overpowered. To use an extreme example, if a GCL has 10 GCS, each with 3 GDS, 10 Commandoes could potentially capture 10 GCS and 30 GDS. Beside the 80 "potential casualty points" lost by the defender, the attackers have also gained 60 OffPot. All for the cost of 10 BPV and the requirement of having to cause 20 casualties (pretty easy with 60 OffPot).

So, by paying 0.5 BPV to upgrade a BP to a CS, you can potentially turn 2 casualty points into 8 casualty points and a 6 OffPot gain.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 01:45 pm: Edit

As I said, then the directed destruction of GDS.
Dave

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

..but we already have the ATHWS doing that.

I've got it!

Commandoes can perform hit&run vs GDS. If enemy BPs are present in the GCL, they count as guarded.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Don't forget that normally capturing the GCS requires first destroying the GDS (the one exception seems to be if one destroys all enemy infantry units by direct allocation and captures the site "for free").

As far as commandoes on GMG, I've always found them useful there. The GBDP (or other GBD) blow down a ship's shield and then the GMG sends the commandoes to do a pair of H&R to destroy those critical systems (other H&R with regular troops can be done with the rest of the transporters). The target is very likely to be within range of the GMG's transporters (since the planet can't be attacked beyond range 5). Apart from a few special cases (troop ships that can land directly on the planet), just about everything is forced to either use shuttles or give the GMG a shot at H&R run raids to even start a ground assault (assuming the GMG doesn't try for an outright capture attempt). Knocking out a pair of transporters (or even a shuttle in its bay) is often more than worth the two extra ground units.

I'm not saying that giving the player the option of replacing the GMGs commandos is bad (I actually think it is a good idea), just that the commandos are useful as is.

By Dave Cross (Davecross) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Andy, nowhere in the ATHWS does it say anything about directed damage against GDS.

Hit and Run is a good idea, but I think don't include them as guarded, since there MUST be boarding parties present to occupy the GCS to enable to use the GDS, so by default, then they would always be guarded.

So, instead of using ground combat potential, commando can make a hit and run raid against a GDS.