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X1 ship BPVs assume Type VII drones in the racks, not Type IF.

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That 472 isn't allowing for Drone speed upgrades. The basic BPV assumes that drones are at slow speed. You factor in speed 32 and it goes up even more. +28 BPV (or so) IIRC. (Not looking at books just now.

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Nope...it's 472. The unreffitted BCG is 180. The NCA is 147. The CAR+ is 145. Add it all up and it's 472. This is without any other options purchased by BPV.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Ken,

X-ship BPVs are calculated assuming Type-VII drones, which are by definition speed-32 drones.

In your Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:52 am post you suggested that X-ships would require an extra"
+28 BPV (or so)" for speed upgrades

Since X-ship BPVs assume Type VII drones, speed upgrades are already accounted for.

So no hidden additional +28 BPV cost.

That was all.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Actually, I think he was referring to the Fed battle group MJC was describing, which are all GW era ships. So, they would have to pay for the drone speed increases.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

My error then

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Yep I was referring to the GW era ships that were being used. The discussion was revoving around the BPV of a BC(G),CAR+,NCA.

My post was in reference to the 472 BPV being discussed. I simply pointed out that the speed upgrades would have raised the BPV even higher.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 08:21 pm: Edit

...and I know that.

A natural error considering this is an X2 topic.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

Being as this is the plasma thread, I thought I'd get some consensus on this torpedo. The Plasma-X torp, a torpedo that appears in Y205 with only the Roms, but is copied by the Gorns by Y210. I wanted a torpedo that was like the R...big, terrifying and scary. The Roms had the R to start with, and it was what made them such a dangerous opponent, IMHO. Who hasn't played their paltry Fed CA and turned white when that lowly WE tossed out that R torp at range 8? So, I created this one:

Plasma X Torpedo Table

Range	0-5	6-10	11-12	13-14	15	16-18	19	20	21-23	24	25	26-28	2-	30	31-40
Damage	60	60	50	45	45	35	35	30	25	25	25	20	15	10	5

The arming costs for it are as follows:

Normal Mode
Turn 1: 3 any power
Turn 2: 3 any power
Turn 3: 6 any power
Hold cost: 6 any power

Sabot Mode
Turn 1: 3 any power
Turn 2: 3 any power
Turn 3: 6 any power + 6 warp power
Hold cost: 6 warp power only

Those costs follow the model set forth by existing torpedos. While expensive, the extra damage and range would seem to be worth it. It can be fired as an EPT, shotgun (producing six F torps) or bolted.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Mike,

The torp looks good and balanced, but +10 points of damage for all that extra arming cost just doesn't seem enough restore that unique-to-the-R-torp "oh $%&#" feel to me.

For the benefit of the newer people in the studio audience, I was looking to create the same thing and came up with an even larger torp I called the Z-torp.

(80-point warhead for those who aren't familiar. It arms for 3-3-8 if memory serves)

A complete plasma chart including Mike's X torp and my Z is on my Romulan XKE SSD

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

My play group tend to be far more afraid of a KR than a WE even at the begining stages.


I wouldn't bother with try to find new "wow" value and would prefere just to look for parity without having the ability to overkill GW task groups...with about 96 BPV worth of #1 shield boxes in the above task group and the X2s running around with about 50, you'ld better not want all that leftover BPV to go into firepower.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

My friend Dwight is about unbeatable in the WE vs the Fed CA or equivelent. It's amazing, he's an excelent Romulan but he seems to prefer Kzinti. Funny. (Actually, when he chooses Romulan I don't figure on being the one having the fun. :0 )

John, that was going to be my name for the killer Romulan Torp. Once again... however, I don't see that one fitting on ships. Maybe a base torp! Bases should get their own torp.


Mike: Two suggestions. Boost the 13-14 range to 50 points and make a R40 bracket that does 1 point. All the other torps peter out at one on the last hex. It has to do with Pseudos and keeping the seceret. (i.e usually you don't want the plasma to hit for damage on the last bit so the opponant doesn't know if it's real or not.)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Okay, how 'bout this.

Revised Plasma X Torpedo

Range	0-5	6-10	11-12	13-14	15	16-18	19	20	21-23	24	25	26-28	29	30	31-35	36-40
Plasma X	60	60	50	50	45	40	35	30	30	25	25	20	15	10	5	1

A bit better longevity/damage at range, and a split on the 31-40 bracket. All the rest stays the same.

I kept the arming cost high because it's a way to show a diminishing return on investment...that at some point, pumping in more power starts not paying off quite so well, and that plasmas have hit their peak in terms of efficiency. We can tweak the costs, but I'd be curious to see it played out.

John, I like the Z torp, but I gotta go with Loren...it should be for X-Bases only. We can playtest it, though, and see how it works. Who knows? Might be just the ticket for a new Romulan "big gun".

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

The arming cost is only 1 over the R-Torp. right?

Am I bananas or isn't the R torp 3+3+5. I don't have time to look, Buffy's almost on.

Personally, Mike, I'd be fine with just the last hex (R40) being 1 point. 31-39 being 5. That fits with the others. The rest is great. And yes, I'd say OH S--T if I saw one of those come out. That's a long way to run to avoid a big hit.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Loren,

R-torp is 2-2-5.

I came up with an alternate R-torp arming sequence when I wrote a set of comprehensive rules that united X and Z-torps under the banner "Heavy Plasma Torpedoes." I set an alternate R-torp arming cost of 3-3-4 (3-3-3 just didn't set right for some reason). X and Z torps could arm an R-torp this way. I also created "heavy" R-torp launchers, call "Rh"-torps that could use the 3-3-4 sequence (but were otherwise R-torps).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Not sure all of these new warheads are needed.
Thake a Gorn CCX plasma armament and consider the following improvements.

• Speed 48 sabot.

• Extra five hexes of Glory Zone.
• Which consequently moves 1-4 out to R10.

• Shotgun and EPT bolts for full regular warhead damage, not half damage.

• Fastloads Ls not Fs every turn if wanted.


That should give a 50% in the effectiveness of the Gorns and Romulans in combat without making them overkill to the enemy.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:53 am: Edit

Ooops, ya, I was focused on the last turn there. One extra point on the first two turns will be inconsiquential for X2 ships.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 08:31 am: Edit

You'ld thinks so but...

If it replaces the M torps on the Gorns and then the Gorn has two, because it had 2 Ms, then you're talking about 2 points of power.

Now if you chuck in 1 point more power and all the power is counted as warp, then you can arm 3+3+1 and get a pretty nifty SS to chuck at the enemy.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit

The 60 pt torps are interesting. BUT if the are to take the place of the R as an Oh S*** weapon you would have to replace 2 M's with a single 60. Below is the stuff from my Rom Proposal. Now at the time I was working on this the only debate going was on 40/48 Speed for Sabots. So I didn't really put this out piecemeal. Because it works best IMO as a full package.

FP: Plasma Upgrades

My Intention with Plasma Upgrades was to give the 2X ship more versatility without giving the GW ship something it has never faced before. There have been many interesting comments but nothing really useful without a LOT of balancing problems IMO.

So I settled for a broad range of modest upgrades. It doesn’t make a big difference to a GW ship if it has an EPT armed during EA or during the turn with reserve power.

Arming

Plasma Torpedoes can be Enveloped/Shot gunned with Reserve (or battery) Power. Instead of having to be allocated. Even Held torpedoes can be turned into EPT/SG/LRB.

Movement

Using Carl Magnuss Carlsons suggestion to SVC. Rom 2X Plasma Torpedoes can HET and move. Instead of merely Hetting in place.

I stayed with using 32/40 for Plasma Speeds. R10 will be out soon. None of us have much experience flying against Sabot Torps. So lets not write them off with the Super Sabot just yet.

DF Plasma

There are two possibilities.
1. Mike Rapers Plasma Cannon
The Tables are on the SSD’s for consideration.
2. Using the Long Range Bolt rule from SSJ1.
Basically any Bolt at a True Range of 11 or more will do Damage as if the Bolted Torpedo had hit after moving the same distance. (IE. It is not halved for Bolt Damage.) It costs as much to use a LRB as it does to Envelope the same Torpedo. Note: You can’t EPT and LRB to gain a type of Overload. It’s one or the other. See JFP2.0 in SSJ1 for more Details.

1. The problem with the Plasma Cannon is that it does not address the Plasma users weakness vs. DF in fleet engagements at Middle to Long Range.

2. The main objection I have to the LRB is that it IS a SSJ rule. But maybe 2X tech was able to make it work.

Pseudo Torpedoes

A minor improvement for Pseudo Torpedoes is the ability to simulate an EPT. Cost to boost the Pseudo Torpedo depends on the size of the launcher.
G 1
S 2
M 3
R 4

Pseudo Torpedoes can be reloaded in a scenario. It takes 1 pt of power for 4 Turns with a fifth turn costing the same as the final turn of arming of the torpedo being simulated.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

I like it.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

R10 is supposed to get a number of Plasma upgrades out there. So we may need to wait until we digest those changes and their tactical implications before we make even MORE 2X changes to plasma.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Kenneth: Exactly what I'm doing (though I have tossed out a flash idea or two).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Unless the contents of R10 are set, some of our stuff could be in it.

Otherwise, talk does no harm. It's not like we're making any "official" decisions anyway.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:25 pm: Edit

My main worry is that unless some of us have been doing some serious playtesting. The Sabot rules are almost completely unkown territory for us. Who knows what changes have been made in Sabot torps and ECM Torps just to name two items from the earlier playtest versions which is all I've seen.

Nothing keeps us from throwing ideas around. But whatever they are they will need to be fitted to match R10 seemlessly.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Ken,

How many years away is R10?

We might as well kick ideas around now.

Besides, who says that X-tech and standard tech can't evolve along two differet paths?

I mean, since standard tech is going to figure prominently in the SFU well into the Y200's, new deisgns are going to be created even as X1 flowers and X2 is introduced.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

John R10 is this years Origins release IIRC. (If not it's to be released before then.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Really?

I didn't know that.

Well so much for anything WE think getting into it.

That being the case, I can hold off plasma discussions till after Origins, see what the Steves have for us and go from there.