Archive through July 22, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: First Generation X-ships: X1R The X-ship R Module: Archive through July 22, 2003
By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:59 am: Edit

Yeah, but there's have to be limit on the explosive modules being standard not X2, otherwise you jump to a 36/10/32 to 48/10/32 which would be way too much, even though it'll only set you back 3R1 Ph-3 shots ( assuming you like your chances at 26 in 27 )...but if it did get past the defense, look out.

Yeah it'ld need to be restricted to old style warhead modules (36/10/32)...but maybe that's all X2 drone might have, the reinvention of a true two space module as the only advance in drone tech...I'ld hate that but it may well be the thing that's closest to possibly being agreed on.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 03:30 pm: Edit

First question: why was the type-VIII limited to 2 spaces? The answer is important.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Because playtests of the revamped X1 showed us all that a three space (counting as 2) drone could not be dealt with following the removal of the overloaded phasers.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Next question,

Does the P-5/P-6 give 2X sufficient added drone defense to return a 3-payload-space drone to service?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:29 pm: Edit

No, at least not IMHO. A P3 is only two more damage than a P3, at most, and we're already looking at less P5's on the ship than in later model GW or X1 ships. That's fine, as far as offense goes...but super-seeking weapons are going to be hard to handle. This depends, of course, on the availability of the three space drone. If it's very, very rare, I could see it. As a general use drone, my statement stands.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Sounds like across-the-board use is out.

What if availability were limited to X-ships (X1 and X2)?

What if availability were limited exclusively to X2?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Quote:

Because playtests of the revamped X1 showed us all that a three space (counting as 2) drone could not be dealt with following the removal of the overloaded phasers.


That's odd, because taking the same amount of damage to stop would mean that the true two space drone and the two space drone were inflicting their damage at the same percentages and it just the ammount of damage inflicted rathetr than the ability to get past the defenses that was the problem, unless one factors in the effects of armoured drones.


Quote:

What if availability were limited exclusively to X2?


Unfortunatly I'ld rather a Type VIIIB than a true two space drone in the X2 period...assuming at some point in X2 8 points per 1/2 space of explosive module becomes standard.
32/4/40 beats 36/10/32 in my book....even 32/8/32 in unrestricted numbers beats limited numbers of 36/10/32 IMO.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

It could be that the consequences of letting a drone through--NSM grade consequences in the case of a olf type VIII--just tilted the balance too much toward drone effectiveness.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

I think the chance of that are slim.

I personnally think a lot of people said, the rules for the Type VIII are too complicated and I don't like anything that could possibly inflict 30 points of damage and be as hard to kill as a stinger-II...not really realising how good the X1 are at drone defense, still.

It could be that the combination of launch rates and damage was exactly right to tip the scales but I think a much more simple solution is likely, like people said, oooh, yuck, and that was the end of that...I mean overloaded phasers went out and rather than play testing ideas like, some races get to fire 2Ph-1 shots 12 impulses apart and some races get overloaded phasers as they are and some races get a double damage damage Ph-2 shot, we just went with no overloads and still winde up with cookie cutterism, just the tactics as less phaser driven.

Perhaps I'm being to negative about the human condition.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:58 pm: Edit

MJC, it was not that the rules were too complicated. It was the fact that the Type-VIII could do 24 damage and require 12 points of damage to destroy. With the reduced P1 being pulsed as 2xP3s, the possibility of requiring 4xP3 shots to kill a single drone was considered over the top.

I can't recall if you were actually there or not for the X-ship revamp, but I ran about 5 or 6 different playtests. There were several options available to us and things like the 2xP1 shots 12 impulses apart was found to be far too deadly against PFs and fighters, even for X-ships. We went with the most likely workable solution.

We did keep the double phaser caps and we did change the EW rules so as not to be overwhelming. Don't complain about the results of the X-ship rework being cookie-cutter. It was not.

With the fewer numbers of P5s and the not much higher point defense damage of the P6, a three space drone would be way too much.

The Type-H drone is big enough and X-ships can still use drogues.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

...Then we might have a 3-payload-space drone for the Xork timeperiod because we'll be working with XBC's--and significantly better drone defense.

We may want to schedule a plasma size upgrade for then as well.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:28 pm: Edit

(sigh)

we cannot plan for what we don't know. We can only look at what will be a good starting point in 205...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:33 pm: Edit

I think X2 (which is near the end of the SFU) would be the beginning of the end of the drone as a weapon. Sure, all through out X2 and through Xork War there should be drone usage but there should be some indication that drones are on their way out. Once way to alude to this is to keep drones as they are in X1 with only some module upgrades (and the DBP). To create a new X2 drone would indicate a resurgence of the drone as a weapon. Logically, with drone defences getting better and costing nothing more as they are integrated with the main offensive weapons, drones are going to become less effective. High speeds, drogues (allowing speed 12 WW) and powerful shields speed the end of the era for drones, I think. X2 is NOT the end but the beginning of the end (opps, Isaid that already). The Kzinti will have to adapt as they are the only ones who really rely on drones. Heh, maybe they'll go plasma. Wow, imagin that, plasma and disruptors!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Loren,

Functionally, really the opposite is true.

As combat speeds increase, the drone's staying power is making it hands-down a superior weapon to, say, plasma.

When in other forums we're talking about drone size and power being easily overbalancing, no. The drone is becoming better.

It's plasma that's outliving its usefulness. Plasma, the terror weapon of EY and MY.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:43 pm: Edit

WEll, drones cost money. In a galaxy that is slowly destroying itself, I can see how weapons that cost money with each shot becoming less attractive.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

CFant: Right. How many drones actually hit. Economically, they eat up a lot of resources. That's why I mentioned plasma, though I wasn't all that serious.

John T.: That's true about plasma vs. drones. In that compairison the drone pulls ahead but I think they are both declining. But would'nt the Klingon be surprised when the Kzinti starts launching Plasma-D at thier drones? Anyway, what ever the Kzinti do after drones is beyond the scope of the game. I don't want them to give up on drones until Y260 or later. You know, X3, which will never be.

The indication I spoke of though, should be implemented. Lets keep drones basically the same as X1 (i.e. use the Type 7, 8 and 9 frames).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:05 pm: Edit

"Slowly destroying itself"? Not sure I agree with that.

Economic exhaustion is one thing, but arguably drones, like missiles today, are more cost-efficient killes than ships. You just need ships to deliver the drones.

the rise of the small, easy-to-make/easy-kill ATU corroborates the rise of the drone as a weapon.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Quote:

MJC, it was not that the rules were too complicated. It was the fact that the Type-VIII could do 24 damage and require 12 points of damage to destroy. With the reduced P1 being pulsed as 2xP3s, the possibility of requiring 4xP3 shots to kill a single drone was considered over the top.


You mean 2R1 X1Ph-1s might be employed in rapid pulse mode to stop it...what does an GW ship use to stop a Type IVF?


Quote:

We may want to schedule a plasma size upgrade for then as well.


Well, I would go fro the Two X2 Ms, becomming 2X2 Ms and Ls and then being replaced with 2 X2 Ms & Ss.


Quote:

we cannot plan for what we don't know. We can only look at what will be a good starting point in 205...


Quite the opposite is true.
SVC has made it clear that Xorks will be modular ships, what ever we do to X2, the Xorks just add different/better/more modules.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:43 am: Edit

Quote:

Quite the opposite is true.
SVC has made it clear that Xorks will be modular ships, what ever we do to X2, the Xorks just add different/better/more modules.



Really? Okay then, tell me this:

When you can tell me those things, I'll buy any arguments that we can plan X2 around the Xorks. Until then, Chris is dead right. Stick with what we know.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:04 am: Edit

Really? Okay then, tell me this:

What is the Xork prmary heavy weapon, and what damage does it do?
Something that does a integer number or interger spectrum of damage.

How many phasers does a Xork CA have?
Excatly enough to perform the task it's designed to do within the Confines of existing Xork technology and design practics.

How much power does a Xork CA have?
Enough to arm the weapons run house keeping peerform it's EW and move it at the battle speed that SVC would like to see the Xorks opperate at.

What is the BPV of a Xork CA?
Exactly enough to represent it functional qualities in a tactics sense.


Seriously:-
Lets say the Xorks are "tough mothazz" because they have 10 EW.
How can we deal with this?
Well we could go for 10 EW ourselves or we could go for a phaser refit bringing the phaser suite of the ships upto X1 numbers but using the X2 weapons taking the numbers up to X1 numbers but using X2 heavy weapons...and higher drone speeds and some ships might get extra heavy weapons.

We could say that the Xorks are "tough mothazz" on account of the fact that they have PF repair bays as modules.
How can we deal with this?
Well we could go for PFs on mech-links, or we could go with a phaser refit and possibly a heavy weapons and BTTY refit, with higher drone speeds as well.


To he guy who only owns a hammer;- every problem looks like a nail.

Well with those refits designed into the XCA designs for the day the treaty fails;- it's a pretty friggin' big hammer.
The Admiralty will jump at the refits when the Xorks make a real threat of themselves as they already have the blue-prints locked away in their filing cabinets.

If the raw power principle doesn't work...and it will because Xorks numbers of ships can be used to create balance if the spectrum is too big for the modular method...then a CL or X2R or some such publication can have the EW refit or the PF mechlink refit and the BPV changes and the SSD changes ( if any ) that those other solution will require...but then why win battles by mirroring the other guy, why not use tactics to make your strengths more employed than his.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:11 am: Edit

Thank you for illustrating my point...you obviously have no clue what a Xork looks like.

You go on about we "may" have 10 EW, or we "may" have phaser refits. All this predicated on knowing absolutely nothing about the race you're planning it for.

Again. Just build the first run based on what we know about the races we already play. Let the Steve's worry about how they interact with the Xorks, and when, and if they deserve a refit or not. SVC has already specifically said that this is the route to take:

Quote:

I have VERY solid plans for their ships, including SSDs and rules. I am NOT soliciting input.

Xorks were raiding Fed space in Y80, and every 10-20 years after that raids would show up (usually with technology upgrades from the past). Nobody knew how many Xorks there were or where they were until the main invasion came in the X2 era. So the theory that nobody knows to design X ships to fight them is entirely corect.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:27 am: Edit

Quote:

All this predicated on knowing absolutely nothing about the race you're planning it for.


I know enough about the Xorks.

1) They will be modular ships meaning that any BPVed ship we build they can match withg the usual +/- 10% limit.

2) Their ships die from points of damage meaning that any refit we build does a better job of killing them.


I mean really, if we have a problem that the enemy can put up a shift of +1 all the time, going from 8Ph-5s to 12Ph-5s and getting 9Ph-5s to bear instead of 6 will get the enemy dead more rapidly even if one never moves to solve the EW disparity.

If we have a problem that the Xorks can generate 20 points of impromptu SSReo, then we don't need to go to uber heavy weapons or even huge quantities of our own impromptu SSReo, we just move to a 12Ph-5 suite and our R8 attacks will start to slip past the Xork ability to defend.


We don't have to counter the Xorks with "Xorkized" ships and in fact it'ld be a shame if we did because there would be no room for tactics to be developed to capitalise on the DIFFERING strengths of the ships.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:30 am: Edit

Quote:

So the theory that nobody knows to design X ships to fight them is entirely corect.


There's a difference between knowing how to fight a thing and giving what you already had plans for; "a shot".

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

MJC.........

We don't know that the Xorks exist. Technically that is true. You cannot design a ship based on an unseen enemy. You design a ship based on the problems and situations of the here and now, or 5 years down the line, BASED on the here and now.

Your arguments about designing a ship to face the best possible enemy is disconnected and makes no sense. You know no more about the Xorks than the rest of us, and we are not going to design a ship around an area that we have been specifically told not go into.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

To paraphrase the great Donald Rumsfeld:

There known knowns, then there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. That is, there are those things we do not know we don't know.

In year 205 the Xorks teeter between the Known Unknown and the Unknown Unknown. There have been raids and having learned a lesson from the Andromedans, the various Nations are surely keeping a file of all that is known. However, since it is likely that few survive encounters with Xorkalien Raiders these files are minimal at best. No one would invest in building a Navy to meet a unknown threat, especially when this would be interpreted by other races and a pretense to aggression. No ones mind is on the Xork raids. They’re on recovering after the GW, ISC, Andros, and Op Unity. The Nations need rebuilding. This is the current state of things in Y200. (When the plans for X2 are probably being laid.)

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