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	Archive through July 15, 2004	25		07/15 07:27am
	Archive through September 07, 2005	25		09/07 08:47pm
	Archive through December 29, 2008	25		12/29 03:22pm

The energy doesn't need to be as much as the ECCM generated because it's against only one target and it doesn't last for the whole turn. Power != Energy.

I can agree with the lockon / cloak argument.

There is obviously a per-turn firing limit if it works like Info probes: arming 1+1 means no more than every other turn.

I don't see what's different about lent EW that means that the probe can counter only that. Nothing else has that effect.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:53 pm: Edit

If you want to saddle it with some kind of special energy cost, make it have to be armed with warp power. And if you want to reduce its effectiveness reduce its "to hit" number to 1-5 or even 1-4 (and adjust for EW). But don't start adding even more extras to justify the costs you want to saddle it with.

Currently I think standard probe limitations, 1-6 to hit (1-5 EW adjustment, maybe even 1-4 with an enemy scout present or EM), and 1 impulse of 3 ECCM is enough.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:35 pm: Edit

I agree with Jim, 1+1 arming is not too little for 3 ECCM if it only lasts a small time (1-4 impulses). Especially if it is only for 1 target.

The great thing about it not being use vs lock on to cloaked ships is that the Sequence of play itself would make it nearly useless.
Flash Cube/ESG Strike: 6A3
Cloak activation : 6B2
Lock-on Rolls: 6B3
Probe fire: 6B4
Just write that the ECCM lasts until the target or firing ship moves, or next movement stage if target is under EM (movement disturbs the targeting solutions) and viola is very hard to use in a flash-cube/ESG event, but could be used for a reacquiring lock-on roll if timed well.

We could also use the a variation on the tac-intel rules and allow you to fire the probe at a hex (with-in 6 of the ship) and have it give the firing ship +1 ECCM on all targets within 2 hexes of the target hex (see D17.154)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 06:19 pm: Edit

I had proposed that the ECCM is used on the following impulse. That way it is useful for the next impulse fire and it a warning or trick (I.e., tactically interesting).

A normal probe require 1+1 to gather info. Burning through EW is a significantly greater task. They way I see it is that you are getting 3 ECCM for one point, the point beyond normal probe arming. I'd be OK with ALSO gaining the 20 points of info with 1+2 arming. That could have considerable tactical implications when using tac intel rules.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 07:44 pm: Edit

As this would be a weapon I still believe the Foward Arc restriction should apply.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Any particular reason why?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 09:10 pm: Edit

The rule for a probe states when it is fired as an emergency weapon it has a firing arc of forward only (G5.14) & (G5.33). Using the probe for ECCM turns the probe into a weapon.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Not sure it has to be such, but that's a valid possition. I like it being 360°. I think this is pretty different from a device that is overloaded with anti-matter ready to blow any moment.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 08:53 am: Edit

It's not a weapon. It's being fired for information. and there's little information more basic than "where is he?"

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Jim, but when it is used for ECCM shouldn't that be considered an offensive action making it into a weapon?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Wouldn't the nature of ECCM mean it'd be fired in your FA arc for th emost part anyway? I couldn't see firing it behind me just for a few phaser shots anywhere near as much for the big punch I'd get in the FA arc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 08:24 pm: Edit

That depends on if you call a Scout Sensor a weapon. I think its an SVC call.

I can think of very useful ways to use the ECCM probe firing to the rear. Tholians, Hydrans and Battleships have significant firepower to the aft. Feds and Klingons also can have a very good phaser volley directly aft.


The one issue I have with the ECCM-anything-unit is X-ships. I think that the ECCM from the probe cannot be the only ECCM that gives the X-ship the -1 to hit. Their bonus is explained as better targeting computers. While the ECCM from a ECCM probe can be part of the equasion, it should not be allow to be the ONLY ECCM and provide the bonus. That is, the -1 must come from the ship (or other lent sources as is already allowed in the rules).

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Ken - not necessarily. You might be trying to rescue civilians from a freighter in a nebula and can't get a lockon because of the 9 natural ECM. Similarly, when getting info to work out a monster's vulnerability, isn't that equally offensive?

Loren - Given that X-ships get 2 free ECCM anyway, I think your condition is already satisfied...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Jim Davies,

X-ships do not get free ECCM. That was the old rule that was changed years ago, when the X-rules were revised. The current rule is that they can spend 8 points of power for EW, rather than 6 like most ships. But they do have to pay for every EW point.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, March 28, 2025 - 06:26 pm: Edit

This topic has been dead for years, but It occured to me that there was a suggestion that hadn’t been made yet.

What if, instead of defining different classes of Probes by size (as was suggested early in the discussion… (namely, the published Probes would be referenced as “class one probes” and class two drones be double sized probes doing twice whatever a class one drone does.),

the classification would refer to some other characteristic.

For example, the original probes speed was calculated by a roll of a die six, for a single turn duration.

What if the classification referenced endurance? Class One has a single sfb game turn limit of up to six hexes. Class two probe might be larger with more fuel reserves, and a powered endurance of two sfb turns and a per turn maximum speed of up to six hexes per turn?

That way, probes would retain the original probe abilities, the only difference is how many turns of endurance they have.


The single biggest change would be multiple turn endurance, but at the original published probe abilities.