Archive through August 02, 2003
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Archive through August 02, 2003
Hi all,
Garth's proposal in the F&E section split between two different veins of thought, so I thought I'd create a topic for the "other" vein.
Map
Based off the F&E Map. Each Province is an area with the capital hex(es) being a separate area. Econ Value of each area is approx. 1/2 the F&E value. I've started a "sample" map here: map
Units
This might be a few too many units, but its a starting point:
| Unit | Cost | Move | Attack | Defense | Notes |
| Frigate | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | |
| Destroyer | 6 | 3 | 2 | 2 | |
| Cruiser | 9 | 3 | 3 | 3 | |
| Dreadnaught | 12 | 3 | 4 | 4 | |
| Scout | 6 | 3 | 1 | 4 | Scout |
| Hybrid Destroyer | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | carries 1 fighter; Hydran only |
| Hybrid Cruiser | 7 | 3 | 2 | 3 | carries 2 fighters; Hydran only |
| Carrier | 6 | 3 | 1 | 4 | carries 1 fighter |
| Heavy Carrier | 10 | 3 | 5 | 4 | carries 2 fighters |
| War Destroyer | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | |
| War Cruiser | 7 | 3 | 3 | 2 | |
| Tender | 8 | 3 | 1 | 4 | carries 1 PF; Scout |
| Tug | 4 | 2 | 1 | 3 | can carry 2 Ftr or 1 PF; non-combat only; REPAIR |
| Battlestation | 10 | 0 | 4 | 4 | carries 1 Ftr and 1 PF (2 Ftr for Fed); Scout; REPAIR |
| Starbase | 18 | 0 | 6 | 6 | carries 2 Ftr and 1 PF (3 Ftr for Fed); Scout; REPAIR |
| Fighter | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | |
| PF | 4 | 2 | 3 | 2 | |
|
Cost = Cost in Econ Points
Moves = Number of areas that unit can move per turn
Attack = Attack Value*
Defense = Number of Casualty Points required to destroy with Directed Damage**
Combat
Similar to Axis & Allies, roll a die (normally d6) for each unit - if the number rolled is equal to or less than its *attack value, a Casualty Point is caused.
Combat is simultaneous, but Attacker allocates casualty points first. With each Casualty Point, you may do one of the following:
CRIPPLE any unit (except Fighters and PFs)
Destroy a CRIPPLED unit
Destroy a Fighter or PF
Each player, prior to his opponent allocating Casualty Points, may choose to use some or all of the points to **Direct Damage a unit. A number of Casualty Points equal to the Defense Value of a unit is required to damage it. Undamaged units are CRIPPLED; CRIPPLED units are destroyed. As above, Fighters and PFs cannot be crippled; they are destroyed instead.
CRIPPLED units are turned to their side to indicate their status. CRIPPLED units have their movement reduced to 1 (if higher) and use a D10 in combat instead of a D6 (making it more difficult to cause Casualty Points).
After each round of combat, each side, starting with the Attacker may retreat some or all of their units. When only units from one side remain, the combat is over.
If an Area is conquered, as with the Axis and Allies model, that player gains Econ Points for that territory at the start of the next turn (assuming they hold it).
REPAIR: These units can perform repairs. REPAIR is used to repair CRIPPLED units; the cost of repair in Econ Points is equal to the Defense Value of the unit.
SCOUT: For each Scout in a Force, the player may reroll ONE dieroll, after the roll has occured -OR- may attempt to remove a casualty point scored against his side. To do this roll a d6, if a 4 or less, one casualty point is removed.
FIGHTERS and PFs: Fighters and PFs must be based on units; if no units capable of basing them exist in the area, and the unit is out of movement (use combat and non-combat movement, as Axis and Allies uses), then the unit is destroyed. As in A&A, Fighters and PFs may move and attack independently, but cannot make "Kamakazee" moves (i.e. there must be a possibility for a safe landing). These units may be carried by Tugs, in a manner similar to Transports in A&A. Units carried by a Tug may not be used in combat until transfered to a unit that can base them (i.e. they can move from the Tug to another unit).
Units may be produced at the CAPITAL (shipyard) or in designated other areas (Hydran Old Colonies, Orion Conclave, etc.). EXCEPTION: BATS and SB may be built in any CONTROLLED area with a Tug. (control is same as A&A).
Andy,
You're using the provincial map, correct?? Try working with this one:
http://members.cox.net/garth.getgen/f&e_provincial_map.gif
I have no idea what web site I sto... hmmm ... "borrowed" it from. It you want to close off the hex around the home area, use PaintShop Pro and carefully copy/paste from another portion of the map. You'll have to fill-paint all the numbers. There's only 1,159 of them. 
What's your OoB look like??
I see you set the economy to 50% F&E. I think you'll need it that high to sustain the kill-rates that this combat system will generate.
Garth L. Getgen
Andy
You need to sort out your pricing levels. Currently, a heavy carrier has five times the attack of a frigate and can carry 2 fighters, yet it only costs 3.3 times as much. I don't know why your heavy carrier has more attack and is cheaper than a DN.
A SB should be considerably more powerful. At the moment, it is barely better than a DN. BATS are about right.
I would put in maulers before hybrid warships ( Hybrid cruisers are incidentally very powerful here - a hydran hybrid cruiser simply does not carry as many fighters as a CVA).
Leave out the PFs for now.
I would make the big ships much more expensive, as they will be very difficult to kill by DD, and will be great assets for combat density, assuming you are using a command limit. If you are using F&E type command limits (say, a Dn commands 7), I can see optimat fleets with 2 heavy carriers/fighters to take the hits filled out with cruisers.
What about escorts?
Garth, seeing as he has crippling, I would not necessarily see this creating huge casualties.
Garth. Thanks for the map! I'll have to make a few edits - to add a separate "province" for the capital hexes and to fit the Old Colonies onto the map, but that'll save me a LOT of manual work.
By adding crippling and retreats, I believe ship kills might be uncommon - until you overload you repair capacity.
David. The Heavy Carrier is a typo:
| Unit | Cost | Move | Attack | Defense | Notes |
| Heavy Carrier | 10 | 3 | 2 | 5 | carries 2 fighters |
|
Starbase - its very expensive to DirDam, is a scout and carries 2 Ftrs and 1 PF. It appears to be 50% better than a DN to me; am I missing something?
Hybrid Cruisers, Escorts, etc. Each ship actually represents a squadron of ships - 3 RNs carry 27 fighters. Escorts are built into the Carriers (hence the higher defense value).
I won't be using command limits, yet am not greatly concerned about an abundance of big ships. Yes, they are tougher to DirDam, but just causing a lot of casualty points will result in them dieing if not protected by smaller units. That's the trade-off I've tried to create here. The big ships are more likely to cause casualties and are more difficult/costly to direct against yet if not protected by smaller units, fall easy prey to undirected Casualty Points.
Example:
Fed Fleet (DN, CA, CA, CA, CA - 41 value) attacks a Klingon Fleet (CA, CW, DW, DD, FF, FF, FF, FF - 41 value). The Feds cause 3 Casualty Points and could either DirDam to cripple a CA (or both the CW and DW) or could do general damage, likely resulting in 3 crippled FFs. The Klingons also cause 3 casualties and would definately NOT direct as that can cripple 3 CAs with their 3 points.
Fighters are of course good for absorbing damage, but are more difficult to get to the front and are fragile (low dirdam; no crippled status).
I'm still working on the OOB.
your damage scale seems off
it takes the same damage (2 points) to destroy 24-27 fighters as it would take to cripple 2xCVA + 2xNAC +4xDE (2 heavy carriers) ???
your defense numbers seem fairly reasonable, but since they are only used when directing heavy units are just to vunerable when letting damage fall.
also 3xDN should be substantialy more powerful then CVA+escorts, yet they are actually easier to direct on then the carrier group (I would have to do the math, but I think the average casualty points caused is also lower then the carrier group)
the fed bases should probably carry double the number of fighters as the other bases, not just 1 squadron more in place of the PF's
I like the general idea, but you seem to have some scale problems
you may also want to consider D8 and D12 instead of D6 and D10 to give you a little more room for granularity (after all you will want to end up adding more units later )
if you were to go to D12 and D20 you may even be able to use existing F&E counters (at least for the base ships, carriers would need special rules and counters) roll under the attack value to score a casualty and to direct you need to do 1/2 the defense value of the unit (or possibly 1/3 to get the numbers closer to what you have)
without any sort of command limit (or a limit on how long a fight can last) a large fleet will overwelm a smaller one fairly easily.
David Lang. Yes, that's correct it takes the same amount of damage to destroy 12 fighters as it does to cripple a CVA + Escorts (12x15=180 points and Ftrs have built in EW). No, its not perfectly representative of SFB or F&E but its supposed to be a highly simplified, 6 pages of rules, anyone-can-learn-how-to-play game.
Yes, the letting damage fall is costly to larger units - that helps encourage the building of smaller ones.
The higher defense of CV groups is both for balance (they become prime DirDam targets because they carry fighters) and to represent that they stay back during battle.
Why should Feds get 2 Ftr to replace 1 PF?
I don't see adding any additional units; if anything, I'll remove the DW and CW.
I assigned the attack values and costs based upon the D6 (similar to A&A); a change to D8/D12 would require considerable rework. Its just based upon the concept that 2 CAs will cause a casualty, etc.
Yes, a larger fleet will overwhelm a smaller fleet. SFB/F&E Command Limits are something we accept but aren't something that make logical sense to the average Joe on the street. The smaller fleet, however, can just retreat after a single round of combat to reduce casualties.
If you are not using comand limits you may need to scale up the fixed defenses, command limits greatly strengthen fixed defenses in F&E and SFB campaigns since fixed defenses do not count against command limits. I would suggest allowing fixed defenses to use their defense value even when voluntarily resolving damage.
David,
"seeing as he has crippling, I would not necessarily see this creating huge casualties"
Ah, yes. See, that's something that was missing in the suggestion over in the other topic. I tried it and the fleets evaporated.
One thing I added to my purposal that helped a lot was the RETREAT result.
I was just reading FORTRESS AMERICA rules and noticed something. In that game, you hit on a 5+, but a "1" is a RETREAT. Infantry roll a d6, strong units roll d8 or d10. That means infatry have a 33% chance of hitting and 16.7% change of forcing a retreat, while the stronest units have a 60% chance of hitting but only a 10% chance of forcing a retreat. Strange, that.
BIG BIG different between FA and A&A: In FA, the shooter picks which unit is hit; in A&A, it's the target's choice. Personnally, I'd like a mix somehow.
Garth L. Getgen
Andy
SBs in F&E and SFB are at least as good as 2-3 DNs. Yours is pretty wimpy by comparison, and I can see it being knocked off quite easily (do you want that?).
Define wimpy? You could cripple 6 ships for the cost of crippling one starbase. When uncrippled, it automatically caused a casualty.
I guess some ideas might be:
1. Raise Defense to 10
2. SB gets 2 attacks per turn
??
Having played A&A Europe a few times, and with some help from James Boyce... well I won't claim to be hugely skilled. But I do get it now, and I think I'm getting better at it. I've really been enjoying playing the game. (I used to consider myself really crappy at strategic games.)
F&E theoretically should be fun, but too complicated for my taste and skills.
This type of thing sounds just right! I'd buy it in a heartbeat!
Ditto!
edited out by author
Ok this is more like it, some comments;
By Andy Palmer ;
Map
Based off the F&E Map. Each Province is an area with the capital hex(es) being a separate area. Econ Value of each area is approx. 1/2 the F&E value. I've started a "sample" map here: map
I like it. That's more like it. Keep it up, that's the kind of map I want to see. Next would be the rest of the races of course, and hopefully names for each 'province' and perhaps on the board capitol/SB/BATS notations.
Frigate 3 3 1 1
Destroyer 6 3 2 2
Pointless difference. I'd buy 2 frigates for the cost of 1 DD and be able to take twice as many hits as my opponent. Eliminate the FF and just use DDs. Need to represent the fragility of these units somehow too. I would allow cruisers, DNS etc. to be crippled but not the little guys.
Cruiser 9 3 3 3
Dreadnaught 12 3 4 4
Scout 6 3 1 4 Scout
Hybrid Destroyer 4 3 1 2 carries 1 fighter; Hydran only
Hybrid Cruiser 7 3 2 3 carries 2 fighters; Hydran only
Carrier 6 3 1 4 carries 1 fighter
Heavy Carrier 10 3 5 4 carries 2 fighters
Pretty good from a non numbers perspective. I'd put the SC and CVA on the backburner myself.
War Destroyer 5 3 2 1
War Cruiser 7 3 3 2
Tender 8 3 1 4 carries 1 PF; Scout
Tug 4 2 1 3 can carry 2 Ftr or 1 PF; non-combat only; REPAIR
Get rid of these for now. Either redundant (figthers/pfs, DD/DW and CA/CW) or not enough benefit to write the rules for them at this time.
Cost = Cost in Econ Points
Moves = Number of areas that unit can move per turn
Why 3? Wouldn't 2 be easier to track and keep under control?
Attack = Attack Value*
Defense = Number of Casualty Points required to destroy with Directed Damage**
I'd KISS and go 1/2 on this.
Combat is simultaneous, but Attacker allocates casualty points first. With each Casualty Point, you may do one of the following:
This *sounds* like you can direct damage at no penalty. Normally in A&A you decide what to take as hits. Are you saying the opponent always decides what you take as hits? Wouldn't it be simpler to say that you allocate your hits unless your opponent decides to DD at a 2/1 ratio (or whatever)?
After each round of combat, each side, starting with the Attacker may retreat some or all of their units. When only units from one side remain, the combat is over.
May want to consider pursuit rules.
REPAIR: These units can perform repairs. REPAIR is used to repair CRIPPLED units; the cost of repair in Econ Points is equal to the Defense Value of the unit.
Keep that to bases for now.
I am now interested on how you will implement border bases and area bases. Must you conquer both to take a region or will there be area bases only in non-border regions? Can you deny resources to the enemy by occupying a region but not taking out the area base? Or can you planetary assault to take the economics but ignore the area base thereby taking his 'coin' but denying yourself the ability to advance further?
Geoff.
Yes, named provinces and OOBs are desired.
FF vs DD. Something to consider.
Movement. MV of 2 might work. Have to look at the Feds where its most likely to be an issue.
Attack value vs Defense. KISS 1/2 removes some of the CV/SC flavor.
This *sounds* like you can direct damage at no penalty. Normally in A&A you decide what to take as hits. Are you saying the opponent always decides what you take as hits? Wouldn't it be simpler to say that you allocate your hits unless your opponent decides to DD at a 2/1 ratio (or whatever)?
You can DirDam for no penalty EXCEPT that it takes [damage] points to cripple with DirDam as opposed to 1 to cripple without it.
Pursuit: I thought about it, but it gets complicated and bogs things down, IMO.
Repair: bases, only? I had Tugs for the necessary transport role and repair gives them more value add. Still, since Tugs are required to build bases, it should be enough without it.
To conquer a region, you must remove all enemy military units (ships and bases). The OOB will include a BATS in each border province and a SB in appropriate provinces. Capital will hava a SB.
Thanks for the feedback.
Geoff, 1 DD is as tough as 2 FF if you are doing directed damage.
if you just let damage fall 1 FF and 1 DD take the same to kill
one very easy thing to overlook (I wrote up a long critical post on this but noticed before posting that my assumptions were wrong) is the fact that the damage column ONLY matters if you are directing. if you let the damage fall 1 point of damage will cripple a DN or a FF or kill a crippled ship. think of the damage column as the DD damage ratio for that ship
a SB is fairly easy to cripple, except a SB is never alone, it also has 3 extra points of damage in fighters/PF's that it can take before getting crippled.
as such killing a SB without a defending fleet takes 5 points of damage, enough to cripple 1 ship and kill 2 ships or cripple 5 ships in the attacking fleet if damage is exchanged evenly.
so 3 DN vs SB
round 1
3DN will average 2 hits,
SB will score 1 hit, 2xfighters will average 2/3 hits, the PF's will average 1/2 hit overall 2 1/6 hits
SB will kill 2 fighters
either destroy 1 DN or cripple 2 DN
round 2
2xDN will average 1 1/3 hits 1 DN + 2 cripples will average 1.46 hits
SB will score 1 hit, PF will average 1/2 hit overall 1 1/2, since the prior round was an average of just over 2 we'll call it 2 hits
SB will kill the PF
either destroy a DN or destroy two cripples or cripple both remaining DN's resulting fleet is either 1xDN or 2xcrippled DN)
round 3
1xDN will average 2/3 hit (rounded to 1 from 'leftover' from prior round)
2xcrippled DN will average .8 hit (rounded to 1 from prior round)
SB will score 1 hit
SB will be crippled
either 1 cripple will be killed or the remaining DN will be crippled
round 4
crippled DN will score .4 hits
crippled SB will score .6 hits
whichever scores a hit first will kill the other
so overall 3xDN vs SB will average a crippled DN or a crippled SB remaining (luck can change this)
overall this seems about right.
Some things to consider, as an avid A&A player:
- Sequence of play is of paramount importance. The whole game is based on this dynamic.
- Placing newly purchased units: Where can you place them, and when are important issues.
- An optional rule for A&A are destroyers. They get a sub hunting bonus of +1, and are required to allow planes to attack a sub in the newer games. This function applied to scouts and cloaked ships might be worth looking into as a way to make scouts more attractive.
I think this is a GREAT idea. Go with it!
for scouts, give them EW points and each point lets them modify a die roll (for either side, declared before the roll) by 1
Andy,
If I am reading your combat system right, it take four hits to kill a DN, but only if the enemy uses DirDam to hit it .... otherwise it's one hit - one kill, no??
> Frigate 3 3 1 1
> Destroyer 6 3 2 2
>
> Pointless difference. I'd buy 2 frigates for the cost of 1 DD and be able to take twice as many hits as my opponent. Eliminate the FF and just use DDs. Need to represent the fragility of these units somehow too. I would allow cruisers, DNS etc. to be crippled but not the little guys.
>
> Cruiser 9 3 3 3
> Dreadnaught 12 3 4 4
See? If you look at this, you could ask "why buy a CA when I can buy three FFs for the same price?" using the very same logic. You're running into the same problem I did playing around with ideas in the other topic.
Also, something to consider while attempting to model the combat off A&A: in this game, one counter equals one ship, whereas in A&A one piece = 1 battle ship -or- on SQUADRON of fighters -or- a whole DIVISION of infantry. Of course it take as much firepower to knock fifty planes from the sky or shoot five-thousand soldiers as it oes to sink a single ship. (Yes, I know A&A has two-hits-to-kill BBs.) Just as obviously, a single DN can take much more damage to kill than a FF.
Garth L. Getgen
Garth, 2 hits to kill 1 to cripple a second to kill if letting damage fall.
the reason you wouldn't just build lots of FF's is that the DN's would give you a better chance of scoring a hit.
also the production limits will affect the availability of different ships
this is also a reason to have command limits.
1xDN and 4xFF will average the same damage (2/3 of a hit per round) and cost the same so there does need to be a reason not to just build the smallest unit (the reason not to just build the largest is that you need something to resolve damage on cheaply so that's covered)
as an alturnative to the F&E command rating numbers how about the following scheme.
if you have to many ships in one battle they can get in each others way (all ships suffer -1 to their attack value)
1. to avoid this penalty you need 1 larger ship per 2 ships of a given size
2. up to 2 ships can be exempt from this rule
3. the size order is FF/DW, DD/CW, CA/CV, DN/CVA, BB
so you could have 2xFF as a battle fleet, but 3xFF would get in each others way
the max fleet you could build (without a BB) is 2xDN, 4xCA, 8xCW, 16xFF which is still significantly larger then a F&E fleet but requires you to build the large ships as well as the small ships (and gives the enemy a reason to direct on the large/expensive ships to cut down the size of the fleet)
The reason you build CAs and DNs instead of all FFs is because of DirDam. You can take hits on CAs and DNs and 1. they still have a decent combat effectiveness and 2. it takes 3-4 DirDam to kill them once crippled. Against an all FF force, the FFs are all but useless once crippled (only 1 in 10 chance of causing a casualty) and can be DirDam'd to death by a single casualty point (i.e. it is very cost effective to DirDam smaller units, especially once crippled).
So, the optimum force has a mixture of larger and smaller vessels. The smaller units take the hits while the larger units cause the damage. A force of 12 FFs would lose to a force of 4 FF, 1 DD and 2 CA because the second force has more options both with how to take casualty and how to distribute them.
Garth. I intend that each counter represents a squadron. 1 FF = 1 Frigate Squadron, 1 CV = 1 CV and 2 Escorts, etc. The exception being the BATS and SB.
Andy, sooooo, just how many ships, and of what class(es), does a DN counter represent??
Garth L. Getgen
Andy, I don't understand your argument. both sides will average the same number of hits, but if neither side directs the 7 ship fleet will go down first, and it doesn't make sense for either side to direct in this case (unless they expect the other side to retreat)
the 12xFF force can take 24 hits before it's destroyed, the 4FF, DD, 2CA fleet can only take 14 hits.
the first 8 hits (crippling and destoying 4xFF will be the same, but after that you are left with 8xFF vs DD + 2xCA
round 1 (8xFF vs DD, 2xCA) each side scores 1.33 hits
FF crippled, DD crippled .33 hit 'left over' (I know no minus points but to account for the probabilities I'll carry the 'fractional hits' over)
round 2 (7xFF, crippled FF vs 2xCA crippled DD)
FF scores 1.26 hits (1.59 total)
CA scores 1.2 hits (1.53 total)
both sides destroy the crippled ships
round 3 (7xFF vs 2xCA)
FF scores 1.16 hits (1.75 total)
CA scores 1 hit (1.53 total)
1 FF crippled
1 CA crippled
round 4 (6xFF, 1 crippled FF vs 1xCA 1xcrippled CA)
FF scores 1.1 hits (1.85 total)
CA scores .8 hits (1.33 total)
both sides destroy crippled ships
round 5 (6xFF vs CA)
FF scores 1 hit (1.85 total)
CA scores .5 hits (.83 total)
CA crippled)
round 6 (6xFF vs crippled CA)
FF scores 1 hit (1.85 total)
CA scores .3 hits (1.13 total)
FF crippled
CA destroyed
Oh, but you say you won't destroy a crippled ship untill your entire force is crippled
Ok,
round 1 (8xFF 4xcrip FF vs 2xCA DD 4xcrip FF)
FF do 1.73 hits
CA do 1.73 hits
FF crippled
DD crippled
round 2 (7xFF 5xcrip FF vs 2xCA crip DD 4xcrip FF)
FF do 1.66 (2.39 total)
CA do 1.6 (2.33 total)
2xFF crippled
2xCA crippled
round 3 (5xFF, 7xcrip FF vs 2xcrip CA, crip DD 4xcrip FF)
FF do 1.54 hits (1.93 total)
CA do 1.2 hits (1.53 total)
cripple FF
destroy FF
round 4 (4xFF, 8xcrip FF vs 2xcrip CA, crip DD 3xcrip FF)
FF do 1.46 hits (2.39 total)
CA do 1.1 hits (1.63 total)
cripple FF
destroy 2xFF
round 5 (3xFF, 9xcrip FF vs 2xcrip CA crip DD crip FF)
FF do 1.4 hits (1.79 total)
CA do .9 hits (1.53 total)
cripple FF
destroy FF
round 6 (2xFF 10xcrip FF vs 2xcrip CA crip DD)
FF do 1.33 hits (2.12 total)
CA do .8 hits (1.33 total)
cripple FF
destroy DD, CA
round 7 (1xFF 11xcrip vs crip CA)
FF do 1.26 (1.38 total)
CA do .3 (.63 total)
destroy CA
in either case the FF's end up loosing less combat effectivness as they take damage
right now there is no reason to direct (except possibly against a carrier)
also another thing the post above shows is that you are better off crippling ships then destroying cripples
