| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 03:30 pm: Edit |
Yeah thats my suggestion as well.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 08:50 pm: Edit |
John, just to let you know, Module NCA was changed to R10 and is being released out of order. Some people stress a bit about the out of order thing but SVC just it's not a big deal and everyone said "Hmm, well, gee I guess not."
I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere in the discussions that R10 will have some of the previously conjectural only ships become historical. With the new plasma rules and some historical ship it should be a great module!
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 08:55 pm: Edit |
You read right, and I agree...I'm really looking forward to this one, as it has the long-awaited "gorn gizmo".
| By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 04:10 pm: Edit |
Kenneth, there are at least 3 recent DF plasma proposals for X2.
The one not mentioned, the Plasma Stasis Cannon has an answer for mid to long range combat.
Check it out in this thread
By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 04:09 pm
rd.
| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 08:36 am: Edit |
Ok,
But I'm waiting for R10 to reach me before spending any more time on Plasma stuff.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 04:07 pm: Edit |
OK, here is that proposal I spoke of in the X2 Poll topic.
First, for the typical ship I think X1 plasma is enough but for X2 to only add some enhancements.
One was my old proposal of a Plasma Shroud.
This is the new one. A way to extend plasma range. For one or two power at launch the first five impulses of travel do not count towards range. However, during this time the torpedo cannot strike or do damage to a target. It can take damage as normal.
This creates a myopic zone for a plasma armed this way but gains the benefit of allowing the ship to launch from a further distance. Initially it is not known if the torpedo is armed this way, publicly, but is reviled when the first range bracket is reached and the torpedo does not reduce in warhead size.
Impulses are used and not range to accommodate Sabotted Plasma, which gains even more range due to its speed (but also increases the myopic zone).
If a Myopic Plasma reaches its target in its myopic zone, it will pass over its target and will HET, and then follow its target under standing plasma movement rules. (Note: This could be used as an advantage! I'm sure I don't need to explain what it is.)
Note: The Myopic Plasma will not HET in the hex of the target. If the target moves out of the hex it will HET there (moving in the new direction the next impulse). If the target does not move it will move one hex further straight, then HET, and then continue to follow its target.
If a Myopic Plasma cannot exit it myopic zone before having to HET a second time it loses tracking and is removed from play. (This means that you might be able to use an HET your self to stay in a M-Plasmas zone and force a second HET, thus defeating the plasma. However, while you are doing this, the launching ship is doing something else.)
I'll call it Myopic Plasma.
| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit |
Here's my Plasma Upgrades from the Intergrated proposals. They are modest in and of themselves. But taken enmasse they are an appreciable increase in Plasma power.
FP: Plasma Upgrades
My Intention with Plasma Upgrades was to give the 2X ship more versatility without giving the GW ship something it has never faced before. There have been many interesting comments but nothing really useful without a LOT of balancing problems IMO.
So I settled for a broad range of modest upgrades. It doesn’t make a big difference to a GW ship if it has an EPT coming at it armed during EA or during the turn with reserve power.
Arming
Plasma Torpedoes can be Enveloped/Shot gunned with Reserve (or battery) Power. Instead of having to be allocated. Even Held torpedoes can be turned into EPT/SG/LRB.
Movement
Using Carl Magnuss Carlsons suggestion to SVC. Rom 2X Plasma Torpedoes can HET and move. Instead of merely Hetting in place.
I stayed with using 32/40 for Plasma Speeds. R10 will be out soon. None of us have much experience flying against Sabot Torps. So lets not write them off with the Super Sabot just yet.
DF Plasma
There are two possibilities.
1. Mike Rapers Plasma Cannon
The Tables are on the SSD’s for consideration.
2. Using the Long Range Bolt rule from SSJ1.
Basically any Bolt at a True Range of 11 or more will do Damage as if the Bolted Torpedo had hit after moving the same distance. (IE. It is not halved for Bolt Damage.) It costs as much to use a LRB as it does to Envelope the same Torpedo. Note: You can’t EPT and LRB to gain a type of Overload. It’s one or the other. See JFP2.0 in SSJ1 for more Details.
1. The problem with the Plasma Cannon is that it does not address the Plasma users weakness vs. DF in fleet engagements at Middle to Long Range.
2. The main objection I have to the LRB is that it IS a SSJ rule. But maybe 2X tech was able to make it work.
Pseudo Torpedoes
A minor improvement for Pseudo Torpedoes is the ability to simulate an EPT. Cost to boost the Pseudo Torpedo depends on the size of the launcher.
G 1
S 2
M 3
R 4
Pseudo Torpedoes can be reloaded in a scenario. It takes 1 pt of power for 4 Turns with a fifth turn costing the same as the final turn of arming of the torpedo being simulated.
| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit |
Once I get R10 next week I will make a few changes after I've had a chance to digest the new Plasma rules.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit |
I have re-written some of the plasma cannon rules to tone them down to GW level play, for a race I'm making. I have done some playtesting with them, and they work fine. But, Ken's right; they work best at ranges less than 10. Too much farther out, and they have a pretty poor return on investment as far as power cost goes.
Another device I worked up is the PDP, or point defense plasma...essentially a DF mini plasma that acts like an ADD. It has some of the features of the plasma D in that it looses damage over range. It also has features of the ADD, in that it's DF only and purely defensive. Haven't had much chance to play with it, yet, nor discuss it.
I'd say an improved bolt would be nice, even if it's not quite the same as the LRB. Just a general improvement in range would be helpful; the big changes should be to the seeking mode.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 09:24 pm: Edit |
The MPlasma sounds a lot like my idea of a speed 48 Sabot and a 5 extra hexes of glory zone being all one would need to improve the plasma.
I'm not sure if like MPlasma.
Can I arm it as a regular and launch it as MPlasma using reserve power...if so then I like it....but still like mine more.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit |
MJC: My intention was that you could use reserve power. Indeed it is like gaining five hexes of glory zone but is applied to exsisting plasmas. I think the power cost is going to be the same as Sabot. There are trade off's in using it. The Myopic zone is one. If you're crafty you could use the Myopia as an advantage. If your opponant is crafty too he might defeat it.
Ultimatly, the MPlasma would be used to extend long ranges which, in X2, might be just the right amount.
BTW: I had not thought of your proposal until I read your mention of it in the thread above. Indeed, it's similar but only utilizes the current sabot. Actually, it can be used on its own or with sabot for the appropreate power cost.
The reason I like it is because it is an addition to current plasma rules and not a new/replacement rule. I want X2 plasma users to continue to use X1 plasmas but make improvements like this.
One cloak improvement I would like to implement is variable fade in. Sure, you can fade in faster but you can fade is slow like GW too. I would be a Romulan thing to do. You know, fade in like a GW ship, the enemy not knowing it an X2 ship until the last moment!
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit |
It's not a big "trade off" issue.
If the enemy is close enough that you'll need that BTTY for Neg' Tractor then don't bother paying for "hex relief", you won't need it.
If the enemy is further away then you'll need the extra few hexes but you won't need the Reserve power as much.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit |
Is everybody familiar with the plasma carronade now?
It's a gorn F-torp enhancement that goes like this.
The F-torp can fire in carronade mode, which has a range of 5. It is a range of effect weapon with the following chart:
| roll | damage |
| 1 | 4 |
| 2 | 4 |
| 3 | 4 |
| 4 | 4 |
| 5 | 3 |
| 6 | 3 |
| 7+ | 2 |
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit |
Yikes!!
All plasma Carronade?
Lets see. Assuming the Gorn X2 CA has, 2xM 2xL....
That would be about 8 max damage for the M and 6 for the L? Dropping to 4 minimim for the M and 3 minimum for the L.
Possible damage could be 8+8+6+6 for 28 damage max and 14 minimum.
I could see that.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit |
Maybe up it to around 36 damage or so.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit |
It would be a steady 16-20 (barring EW) every turn (plus phasers) if the Gorn just decided to stay close and knife fight.
It's more resiliant than phasers to EW shifts.
Given 2-turn fastloads, they would have a BIG punch every other turn if they had the power to spare. The carronade would be a nightmare if single-turn fastloads were still in the X-rules.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 07:23 pm: Edit |
Was thinking about this. X1 made improvements to the F and S torps by increasing their damage capacity. In X2, we may want to improve them in some other way; namely, speed and range. What if you made the following:
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 08:51 pm: Edit |
How about we take any torp and extend the range by 10, all at the begining. No increase in damage but the damage curve is flat out to range 20.
The bolt would get a similar treatment. 1-4 to hit to range 15.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit |
A war head 75 torp seem too big to me. I suppose on a ship like the WE where it has no other plasmas it might be OK bout in general use it will really wreck havok on GW.
The original R was scarry but would wreck you ship in one shot. A cruiser could get hit and still have some fight. 50 warhead less 30 shield left 20 internals. Take away 5 or 6 Specific Reinforcement and your Fed CA or Gorn CA is hurt but still fighting.
If that same torp is 75... and follow it up with the rest of the X2 arsinal and GW has had it.
I know there is other factors like WW and running and phasers but I think a single torp with 75 is too big to play nice with anything other than X2.
60 is a lot too but better in that any ship mounting it would be facing a higher BPV (The X2 ships BPV being higher per ship).
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit |
Loren,
That's why god made weasels.
My Z-torp is 80, IIRC.
Tos, Mike
Did you ever wondered what MJC was talking about when he referred to "adding 5 hexes to the glory zone"
Well, so is Tos, except TOS is talking about adding 10 hexes to the plasma's full power run.
Mike, what's the difference between a Y-torp and a M-torp with Sabot?
| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 10:46 pm: Edit |
IF a bigger torp is desireable. I wouldn't support Anything past 60. 75 is just TO much. I'm currently not convinced that the Torp needs to be bigger.
From the work I did looking at the Rom's torps for my proposal. Almost any change has the potential of being so unbalancing that it would need a huge BPV offset or it would'nt be practicle.
Fleet use: Plasma Fleets are ususally weak against DF races in fleet mode. EXCEPT: When the plasma user is attacking a fixed point.
At R15 which is about as close as fleets ever get. most plasma is starting to weaken signifigantly. Enough so that generally a few phasers will result in fairly negligble damage to the ship that the plasma is attacking. Even the two turn S torp is tactically limited due to the power constraints of the final turn of arming. letting the DF fleet pick the range much easier.
Solution: Use the Long Range Bolt rule from SSJ1.
Basically any Bolt at a True Range of 11 or more will do Damage as if the Bolted Torpedo had hit after moving the same distance. (IE. It is not halved for Bolt Damage.) It costs as much to use a LRB as it does to Envelope the same Torpedo. Note: You can’t EPT and LRB to gain a type of Overload. It’s one or the other. See JFP2.0 in SSJ1 for more Details.
The main objection I have to the LRB is that it IS a SSJ rule. But maybe 2X tech was able to make it work.
With the release of the Plasma Carronade I think Mikes Plasma Cannon could be either an off shoot or discarded completely. If kept it would need some revisions for short range DF use.
Increasing Range brackets:
If you keep the average S torp from degrading past R10 then the average GW ship will not be able to run far enough from it to appreciably degrade the warhead to where phasers will reduce the damage to the point that it is surviveable. Remember that the S torp is basically filling in for all the old F's that used to be on every ship. (Some use L but not as many as previous editions.) Meaning it will have to Crash the Torp's and get As close as possible to Smack the 2X ship for firing. meaning that there will only be one real damage pass. Depending on positionng the GW ship maybe able to Fire and ED and launch WW (or decelerate to use Drogues).
| By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit |
Here'S a pasting of my Plasma ideas.
FP: Plasma Upgrades
My Intention with Plasma Upgrades was to give the 2X ship more versatility without giving the GW ship something it has never faced before. There have been many interesting comments but nothing really useful without a LOT of balancing problems IMO.
So I settled for a broad range of modest upgrades. It doesn’t make a big difference to a GW ship if it has an EPT armed during EA or during the turn with reserve power.
Arming
Plasma Torpedoes can be Enveloped/Shot gunned with Reserve (or battery) Power. Instead of having to be allocated. Even Held torpedoes can be turned into EPT/SG/LRB.
Movement
Using Carl Magnuss Carlsons suggestion to SVC. Rom 2X Plasma Torpedoes can HET and move. Instead of merely Hetting in place.
I stayed with using 32/40 for Plasma Speeds. R10 will be out soon. None of us have much experience flying against Sabot Torps. So lets not write them off with the Super Sabot just yet.
DF Plasma
There are two possibilities.
1. Mike Rapers Plasma Cannon
The Tables are on the SSD’s for consideration.
2. Using the Long Range Bolt rule from SSJ1.
Basically any Bolt at a True Range of 11 or more will do Damage as if the Bolted Torpedo had hit after moving the same distance. (IE. It is not halved for Bolt Damage.) It costs as much to use a LRB as it does to Envelope the same Torpedo. Note: You can’t EPT and LRB to gain a type of Overload. It’s one or the other. See JFP2.0 in SSJ1 for more Details.
1. The problem with the Plasma Cannon is that it does not address the Plasma users weakness vs. DF in fleet engagements at Middle to Long Range.
2. The main objection I have to the LRB is that it IS a SSJ rule. But maybe 2X tech was able to make it work.
Pseudo Torpedoes
A minor improvement for Pseudo Torpedoes is the ability to simulate an EPT. Cost to boost the Pseudo Torpedo depends on the size of the launcher.
G 1
S 2
M 3
R 4
Pseudo Torpedoes can be reloaded in a scenario. It takes 1 pt of power for 4 Turns with a fifth turn costing the same as the final turn of arming of the torpedo being simulated.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit |
If it's too big, consider what an R-torp does to WCA or YCA ships.
The Romulans would want to go back to that dynamic, if possible.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 11:51 pm: Edit |
Much depends on the usage whether a 80-point Z-torp is too much.
The X1 Gorn or Rom CA ship has 2xM, 2xS for plasmas.
If we assume that X2 kicks it up a notch to 2xR, 2xM, the Z-torp would replace the 2xR with 1xZ.
Still sound too powerful?
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 12:01 am: Edit |
Quote:How about we take any torp and extend the range by 10, all at the begining. No increase in damage but the damage curve is flat out to range 20.
The bolt would get a similar treatment. 1-4 to hit to range 15.
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