Archive through August 27, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: First Generation X-ships: X1R The X-ship R Module: Archive through August 27, 2003
By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Indeed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 09:26 pm: Edit

Quote:

The Nations need rebuilding. This is the current state of things in Y200. (When the plans for X2 are probably being laid.)


Yes but I wounldn't say that all of the refits of the design of the ship could work.

The way I figure it and perhaps this'll never come to pass, but at some point the Klingons got sick of the Federation ability to fight at Range using 12 point standards ( and proxies thereof ) and drones and those darn Ph-5s to stay well away from the Ph-1 useful ranges.
Indent So they figured why not make a small refit...and we'll just hope the Feds don't notice. And they mounted Boom Ph-5s and an X2 E-rack from drone defense freeing up their own drones for longer range battling.
Indent About a year latter the Lyrans picked up on what the Klingons had down and realising what they had done would speifically render the Lyrans ships unable to engage the klingons with it's Primary weapon ( the ESG because it would be either down from drones ramming it or out of range becasue Ph-5 and Disruptor combos allow you to fight at particulalrly long ranges ) and so left the treaty and began refitting their ships.
Indent The treaty fell apart over a period of about three months mostly on account of the Klingons moving to refit all their phasers with Ph-5s and refitting their 4 Disruptors to 6, which forced everybody not specifically kuckleheaded enough to carry on ( the Feds ) to drop the treaty. Likewise the Gorns slipped out of the treaty arrangements early and refitted their ships with X2 Plasma-Ls ( because simple A3 Torps hits were costing them their main armament rather rapidly and pirates weren't restricted by any treaty ) and latter refitted those to X2 Plasma Ss when they reaslised that no one was talking notice of the treaty anyway.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

(sigh)

There are two totally different time periods that for some reason we've combined into "X2".

Y205 - The Trade Wars

Y225 - The Xork Invasion

These two periods right now have nothing in common, except their name. Now I understand why someone several months back wanted to use the term "X3" for the Xork period.

I suggest that we completely ignore Xorks in these ship discussions.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Indeed. Enough has been said.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

Indeed. The Xorks do not exist to us and therefore have no effect on current discussions.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 02:18 am: Edit

Yes, I supose the refit theory just apllies in the handful a years after that are immediately after the end of the heating up of the trade wars. After all the new ships are being built with the full capasity of the original design, there won't be any refit unless there is new technological development ( like a BTTY refit ).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Building a ship with the capacity to refit it later is something that would still be done in Y205 if the races had agreed to certain limitations in a post war treaty. The Feds really don't need redundant laboratory configurations directly hooked into the main power grid, but since it doesn't violate treaty it is approved for production. The fact that a G2X drone rack has double the throughput due to eliminating the reload time doesn't impact the maximum number of drones that can be launched in a single turn so it is allowed by treaty. No race really needs the industrial age cooling fins built into the P5 when a liquid nitrogen solution requires so much less space, but the treaty allows it. Room for expansion built into the hulls is perfectly reasonable if the politics of the era demands certain military compromises. I would like to see as one of the stipulations that no race is allowed to build an X2 ship during the trade wars more powerful than their XCA. Treaty limitations would measure this by weaponry and not include advances such as the SIF and Special Bridge.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Tos: Do you mean the ASIF and S-Bridge would not be limited by treaty? THat would be right because, though useful in battle, they are really peace time devices.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

That's correct. The weaponry from CA(X1)->CA(X2) stays approximately equivalent but other advances still result in increased BPV. ASIF, S-Bridge, self-shield penetrating transporters, more labs, convertible cargo bays, etc. are not combat enhancements and therefore permitted by treaty.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

That is what I would like to see.

A CX and an XCA should have equivilant combat power.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Quote:

A CX and an XCA should have equivilant combat power.


Yes and no.

The XCA should a few extra boxes in it's warp engine and a few extra boxes in it's shields.
And there should be combat effects from strictly "peace time" systems such as knocking down drone lock-ons with a the Bridge as special thingy, and the A.S.I.F., that pushes practically all XCAs to the point of being around the ISC CCX...and only staying there whilst the treaty stands.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

These will be brand new hull designs. A few extra boxes here or there are to be expected and reasonable.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

I was thinking something about X1R.

At some point X2 ships will need to be part of GW fleets, with X1 ship being possibly mixed in with the fleet or left out as poart of Rapid Responce Squadrons.

Here's the idea.
At some time late in the X2 period the Galactic power developed the ability to to intergrate more X ships into the their GW fleets.
Before X2 ship were developed they developed the ability to integrate one X2 SC4 ship, one X2 SC3 ship and one X2 SC2 ship into their fleets in addition to those allowed under XS8.0!

It was from this ability that allowed the X1 era fleets to feild DNXs.

The fleet my be organised placing one X1 ship in the spot of an X2 ship. With a ship of the smaller size class being placed in the spot of a larger size class vessel.

This meant that late in the X1 period, mixed fleets of X1 and GW ship could have as as much 1 DNX, 2 CX and 2 DDX in their fold.
In the early X2 period this became, 1 XCA, 1 XDD, 1 XFF, 1CX & 1 DDX...although in the late X2 period it is possible for a XDN to have been built by some races suplanting the XCA.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 02:47 am: Edit

What about the "All-X Squadron doctrine" and historical forces like the ISC Echelon of Judgement (All-X1 fleet)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 07:08 am: Edit

Quote:

What about the "All-X Squadron doctrine" and historical forces like the ISC Echelon of Judgement (All-X1 fleet)


Yeah, at some point ( say Y187 ) X Squadrons will be able to just form in numbers upto the control rating of the command ship...probably the day before DNXs hit vaccum.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 07:28 am: Edit

Historically, it was a viable concept from the word "go" just waiting for enough X-ships to orm viable fleets.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 01:16 pm: Edit

At some point X2 ships will need to be part of GW fleets,

HUH? X2 ships were not produced until Y206!!!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 07:58 pm: Edit

G.C.:

Yeah...In Y207, if I have 1 XDD and 1 XFF...do I make a two ship squadron!?!...use them individually or stuff them into the same fleet as say a CVA group.
The XFF probably makes the best Carrier Escort ever seen and the XDD makes for a pretty manouverable little ship, that can jump up with the CX and DDX already in that fleet and strike unexpectedly with a mid-turn speed change thanks to her BTTYs.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

What CVA group? The andros have been defeated for 5 years and everyone is in recovery mode. Remember 2X is supposed to be the era of Trade Wars so I would imagine alot of single ship action with some rare squadron skirmishs.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Geoff, presumably there will still be some GW ships still floating around out there when X2 is in full swing. I personally would find it hard, though, to intermingle the two effectively, since one is so much better than the other.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

X0 will be great at convoy escort and national guard duty where speed isn't critical. A mixed squadron would mean an X2 ship has come to the aid of a convoy currently under attack.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 03:19 am: Edit

Quote:

What CVA group? The andros have been defeated for 5 years and everyone is in recovery mode. Remember 2X is supposed to be the era of Trade Wars so I would imagine alot of single ship action with some rare squadron skirmishs.


Yes and No.

If you have a lot of hulls that you've already bought and CVAs that you've already built and you don't want to weaken your hand in front of the Klingons or the Romulans then you'll need GW fleets...maybe not made of the same ships as the GW fleets were made of, maybe not even made of the same sized ships that the GW fleet were made of, but you'ld like to control fleet that really are at the outer limit of the control limits of the command ships just to show the enemy ( this is what WARGAMES are really for...if you're a Romulan ) that you can build base-busting CVA fleets ( still ) and to teach younger members of the crew how to do it, incase the it ever needs to get done under their watch.


Quote:

Geoff, presumably there will still be some GW ships still floating around out there when X2 is in full swing. I personally would find it hard, though, to intermingle the two effectively, since one is so much better than the other.


Yes and No.
The Squadron theory will be pretty hard to employ...assuming X2 ships are strategically faster than X1s, the X2 will be actually quite limited ( in the same way but to a lesser extent than when mixed with X1s ) by the X1 squadrons and thus the technique of getting them to intermix with GWs will also apply to X1s...alternately early in the X2 period there will be too few X2 ships to truely build X2 Squadrons.

Full fleets have a lot of power and can be used to good effect.
• The enemy can not simply bust it with an X1 Squadron or X2 Squadron, 2 CVAs, the escort and a couple of X cruisers will be hard for 3 X cruisers and 2 XDDs or DDXs and an FFX or XFF to take down...look at the BPVs...nor can the enemy with ease organise their own full GW squadron.
Indent If you want to protect a planet or such, just place a 2 CVAs, their escorts and a couple of X ships in a ten ship fleet in the vacinity and the enemy will know they can not take it...maybe you'll have to give indepenace to a few of the outer worlds but he core world you are left will easily be protected by a high firepower, low-speed GW-style CVA-oriented mixed-X 10-ship; fleet.
• Some will exist even if only picked up from time to time to make public displays of one's ability protect/retake one's planet and bases.
• The Admiralties know that peace will not last forever and they'ld better be able to keep the ability to form large fleets, because the day will come.
• There will be a lot of good GW ships still about and three under manned NCAs in a fleet or seperately will make life hell for the BCJ the Orions picked up cheap from the home defense department of some cash strapped Outer Planet...so the Admiralties will try to keep all of the GOOD HULLs they have and that will result in a lot of hulls floating around.


Quote:

X0 will be great at convoy escort and national guard duty where speed isn't critical. A mixed squadron would mean an X2 ship has come to the aid of a convoy currently under attack.


Yes and no.

Anything slow moving is a good thing for the GWs to protect, Bases, Planet, Convoys, planet assaults and base assaults. Indeed even in picket duty a 10 GW ship fleet is going to probably cause the enemy not to attack ( although the accusation of provocation may get chucked around ).
Mixed X2-GW squardons don't have to be a bad thing...what if the XCC has a command rating higher than any GW ship...then you'ld actually want one in your fleet.
Some X2 ships may have certain abilities ( say any XFF opperating as the escort of a CVA may loan ECM to the fighters of that CVA as though it were the carrier of those fighters ) then there's a lot of memeber of every Admiralty that would want to "subconder" every XFF they can to Carrier Escort Duty.
Even just for the firepower purposses...who needs a Dreadnought really when an XDD with three Photons armed with 24 point Photons can JACKPOT for 72 damage and an XCA or XCC with four such mega weapons are looking at a Jackpot of 96...chuck in all round 40 box sheilds on the XDD and 48/40/40/40 for the XCA ( and 50/40/40/40 for the XCC ) and suddenly the X2 ships are making DNs look expendable or at least replacable.

The more X2 ships get built as time moves on, the more pressure their will be for rapid responce X2 squadrons to be able to bust a full GW fleet and latter for rapid responce X2 fleet to be able to bust the full X1 fleets.
But in the begining years there will be a lot of push both for X2 to be made part of X1 squadrons but also to opperate as cheaper more effienct ( lower loss of human life ) DNs ( XCAs ) and BCHs ( XDDs ) within GW fleets...especially since those WAR-HULLS are running out of longevity but the Admiralties are afraid of showing to their former enemies that they are willing to get the high firepower ships out of their fleets and the X2 ships arn't headed in that direction but do have the firepower.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 04:50 am: Edit

MJC you are floating a paper tiger as it were. All war constuction ships will be out of service. NCAs and HDWs may be relegated to provincial defence forces or police duty. Anything else will be mothballed.

The Trade Wars era is presumably all about economics, and thus getting the most bang for your buck. To protect your economy in a limited intensity conflict you will need a number of highly mobile and capable ships to respond at a moments notice, and likely not in huge numbers. Ergo 2X cruisers and destroyers.

Fleets, as you mention, are to eliminate bases and enemy fleets. There will be no need for that in the Trade Wars (short of some Xork incursion yet to come).

Therefore, we need not be concerned about how 2X ships will integrate with virtually nonexistent GW fleets.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Then escalation of force sets in and fleets mushroom because everybody else's is.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

What escalation of force? The Trade Wars is more of a cold war, low intensity embargo, raid, etc. conflict. It is not a full scale war.

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