| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 08:53 pm: Edit |
Doesn't matter. If I have 4 XCAs to your 3, my 3 tie up your three and the one gets through. So you build a 4th while I build a 5th and my 4 make the empire next door to both of us nervous and he doesn't want to look weak by comparison...and thus the upward spiral without any formal war to drive it.
The Washington naval Treaty was an example of attemting to curb a massive *peacetime* warship buildup.
nations do indeed subscribe to the "Guy with the most toys wins" philosophy.
That's why some on this board have played with a treaty like the Wahington Treaty for the Trade Wars era.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit |
Think Tiawan-China Or North-South Korea.
Occassionally the galactic power will TRY IT ON and see where a really big fleet gets them.
And I don't know about you but I think there's a lot more bang in a 2 CVA, 1PFT ( plus escorts etc ) fleet than there is in a full 3 SC3 + 3 SC4 X Squardon...I dare say with the restrictions of the tradewars a full 2 SC2 + 2 SC3 + 2 SC4 X2 Squadron isn't going to have more firepower than the GW fleet.
The CVAs and PFTs give you a huge bang for your buck on account of the fact 12F-14s + 12 F-15 can put 88 IF drones on the maps in one turn ( and control them ) and that's a lot to deal with even for a full squadron of X ships ( and we haven't even begun to talk about their Gats ) or 6G1Bs can put 10 IVF drones on the map AND if like in a cold war the units are actually not used and since you already own them, it isn't costing huge amounts of money to make that kind of display.
Which is cheaper, build an XCA, XDD & XFF, and run them for 20 years ( Y205-225 ) or take the CVA and her escort which you already own and run them for 20 years!?!
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 12:23 am: Edit |
Depends on how much of their 20 year run they have left.
Even in the 23rd century, once its past the warrenty date it goes to hades
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 03:37 am: Edit |
John, that isn't an escalation in force so much as an expansion in standing forces. There will always (for the most part) be an upwards creep in that. But that's not what we're discussion.
MJC again your logic is faulty. CVAs and PFTs are attrition units. What are attrition units used for? To absorb losses. During the GW this was critical to preserving larger units while still carrying the battle to the enemy. In a cold/trade war this is less so, and X2 is largely comitted to removing attrition units for the most part. With most conflict resolving around 'who gets to control this system/trade route for the time being' via a duel most likely, losses will be unusual. Whoever is first damaged will likely concede the field so as to ensure their expensive 2x ship is not lost in battle.
You keep talking about tactical fleets when there is no need for them in this timeframe iirc. You also expect GW units to continue service once their role no longer exists and their time on station/repair time ratio has increased dramatically because of an extended service time.
Not 'realistic' imo.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 06:21 am: Edit |
1) Shipyards do not build fighters...they don't even build PFs which are built in FACTORIES.
Hence you can build new fighters and new X2 ships concurrently...if you've got the money to do both, and quite simply X2 ships cost more than fighters.
2) Those Attrition units are not just attrition units...they are altered dynamic units.
They might not be able to charge up to a picket ship on the enemy frontline and blow it's socks off ( on account of the fact that they can't run it down ) but they're absolutely fantastic at making a planet or trade line inaccessable to enemy commercial and military vessels. Massive Bang but lousey movement for your buck.
3) Tactical fleets will exist at certain times during the X2 Period...most notible as the trade-wars turn hot and particularly after the TREATY breaks down. But it will happen from time to time that one race will want to make a show of strength..."We might not be able to stop you grabbing that planet with your X2 squadron but we can put a 2CVA and 1 PFT fleet there before you finish constructing your starbase so don't even think about trying it".
4) GW ships will stay around partly because SVC wants the two to be able to play nice with each other and partly because you don't chuck out valuable assets just because you don't currently have a need for them. The ships that will be sold off to the National Guard or Neutral planets ( or Mercinary groups or Pirates ) will be the ones that are pretty lousey assets to have ( BCJs and any other ship that suffers from shock ( except perhaps maulers ) War Cruisers, War Destroyers and surviving frigate based carrier escorts ( they can convert Destroyers to that role and have a far better ship ) and other ships of lesser abilities and failed designs ( such as the Klingon D7Y & D7Z ) and the rest will be kept.
Whether the Best is kept or the best of the best of the best, really depends on the ecconomic capasities of the varrious empires.
Indent But the truth is that for a huge part of the X2 period, the vast majority of ships will be surplus GW hulls and the varrious Admiralties must look into ways of intergrating X2 ships into GW fleet ( from a purely hypothetical point of veiw...ever heard of drill??? ) which was the original basis of the reasoning for the X2S8 rule suggestion.
4) Ships are designed with a working life of 20 years in the real world, yet many of them are much older than that...why because bad management would rather risk lives than buy a new ship and if you scrap a ship your insurance policy doesn't pay out but if you sail until it sinks under your crew then the insurance will ( yes ) or because maintanance of ships isn't difficult ( yes, expensive but not difficult ).
Indent The ships that have the longevity built into their designs ( such as the CARa+ ) will be the ones the Admiralty will keep...When you have to choose between a DW which will need an overhaul for 11 months once every olympiad and a CLa+ that will need a 22 week overhaul once every decade, you choose to farm out the DW to whatever sucker...err...I mean customer you can find...the extra G-rack and the extra Photon might be fun in battle but they're not really worth the effort...the same goes for the CLS and DWS; you'll pick the CLS because of the strategic benifits...but you wouldn't sell both!
Indent In fact if you were so out of money that you thought you'ld have to sell both ships, you'ld probably just hold off production of the X2 vessels ( and X1s ) and look at "re-active" rather than "pro-active" battle plans...that is you'ld look at methods of just giving up control of planets and trade routes ( the TREATY will undoubtly get condemnation from signatories to it if someone invades your planet ) in such a way that it buys the time for a massive GW fleet to organise and retake that planet or trade route.
I think every race will have enough of an ecconomy to build X2 ships so no race will sell off all their ships ( although one or two might be forced to sell off the majority ) such that there will be GW ships in the trade wars period and even in some of the Xork period and that these GW ships will for a very long time form the backbone of the Emperial and Federation; navies for a good sized chunck of the X2 period (Ahh, surperfluious and copious quantities of chech'...ever writters friend )!
A Klingon C7 & D7bk might not be able to out run an XDD & XFF but when they're escorting a group of four large freighters; do they need to!?!
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit |
I see two recurring generic X2 scenarios during the trade wars with limitless variations:
X2 raids GW convoy
X2 raids GW base/planet
Bases will have fighters and PFs. Planets will have that plus Bombers. Convoys will mostly be guarded by surplus warships that may carry fighters or PFs. X1/X2 ships may come in as reinforcements as needed. Mostly the empires would prey on neutral colonies and convoys under someone else’s zone of control.
There will of course be plenty of X2 duels but this kind of action could be taken as a declaration of war and would be have to be undertaken with the diplomatic care that we saw in Y165.
Also to note is that most of these GW era designs have had partial X upgrades (XP) and are not as defenseless as they appear.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 06:55 pm: Edit |
Geoff,
You're right. A gradual increase in forces is NOT what I'm talking about.
To review again for emphasis, the HMS Dreadnought set off a massive arms race to build or aquire the most "all big gun" battleships. The reason: older warships were all but obsolete by comparison.
The Washington Naval Treaty set specific limits and fleet ratios to check rampant out-of control shipbuilding that had set in. The actual ratios of German ships to British ships to American ships to Japanese ships to Italian ships, etc. is not important to this discussion. I don't know them anyway.
(As an aside, I expect this was the mode that the SALT treaties functioned in, setting orderly limits on ICBM *production*, but not actually reducing the numbers either superpower had)
Unchecked by treaty, the advent of X2 could easily kick off a massive arms race across the Alpha Sector for both strategic and prestige reasons. Not a gradual increase in numbers but a steep, tail-down climb on full thrust (to mix metaphores).
When I say "escalation of force", this is exactly what I mean.
I guess I should have said "escalation of forcES" but that's a minor point.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit |
Quote:X2 raids GW convoy
X2 raids GW base/planet
Quote:The Washington Naval Treaty set specific limits and fleet ratios to check rampant out-of control shipbuilding that had set in. The actual ratios of German ships to British ships to American ships to Japanese ships to Italian ships, etc. is not important to this discussion. I don't know them anyway.
Quote:Unchecked by treaty, the advent of X2 could easily kick off a massive arms race across the Alpha Sector for both strategic and prestige reasons.
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:23 am: Edit |
By michael john campbell;
1) Shipyards do not build fighters...they don't even build PFs which are built in FACTORIES.
Hence you can build new fighters and new X2 ships concurrently
Irrelevant. Some fighters and even pfs may be kept in construction for local system or base defence, but the big CVA and PFT units you were talking about won't be.
3) Tactical fleets will exist at certain times during the X2 Period.
For what purpose? The trade war is a cold war. Assuming it stays a cold war (and there is no reason to believe otherwise except possibly for the question mark Xorks) then fleets will be spread across the kingdoms playing 'fire brigade' rather than out and out fleet combat.
..most notible as the trade-wars turn hot and particularly after the TREATY breaks down.
See above. Cold war, not hot.
4) GW ships will stay around partly because SVC wants the two to be able to play nice with each other
No, he said IIRC that the bpv and tech need to be backwards compatible, that people could play GW versus X2 with X bpv and the game be balanced. I do not recall any other comments about major GW units being historically still in use. If you insist on this being the case please provide a reference.
and partly because you don't chuck out valuable assets just because you don't currently have a need for them.
You do have a need for them. Scrap metal, and less money and time spent on repairing/maintaining these obsolete units. Or they will be mothballed. Really MJC this is pretty standard.
The ships that will be sold off to the National Guard or Neutral planets ( or Mercinary groups or Pirates ) will be the ones that are pretty lousey assets to have ( BCJs and any other ship that suffers from shock ( except perhaps maulers )
I don't think any nation would sell heavy battlecruisers to anyone, for local defence or not.
War Cruisers, War Destroyers
An unlikely sale, considering their greatly shortened lifespan. Would you be interested in buying an appliance well past its normal service life and likely to break down any minute if it hadn't done so already? I sure wouldnt'.
But the truth is that for a huge part of the X2 period, the vast majority of ships will be surplus GW hulls and the varrious Admiralties must look into ways of intergrating X2 ships into GW fleet
You say this as if it were 'truth' but the truth is I don't believe there is anything in the original X2 supplement nor new guidelines to support this. and it doesn't make a lot of sense either.
4) Ships are designed with a working life of 20 years in the real world, yet many of them are much older than that...
Correct, but most are relegated to backwater duty, training, sold to third world nations, mothballed or scrapped.
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:28 am: Edit |
John, I'm not really disagreeing with you as X2 ships are clearly a result of an arms/tech race to some degree.
I am taking exception to MJC's comments that GW units like CVAs and PFTs will not only be maintained but somehow form the backbones of tactical fleets in the X2 timeline.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 08:04 am: Edit |
Okay, one thing to think about. The Trade Wars stuff hasn't been very clearly defined yet except in one place that I know of, and that's in the old Supplement 2. What happens is detailed nicely, and that information includes some treaty limitations, the length of the conflict, and the basic nature of it. A few main points:
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 08:35 am: Edit |
There's an X2 Timeline thread where a lot of this was covered and debated months ago.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 08:48 am: Edit |
Yeah, but that's all our stuff we made up...I'm talking about already published information. Is there anything published on the trade wars other then Supplement 2?
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:01 am: Edit |
There's a one sentence mention of it in the "History of the General War" article.
"...The Andromedan War was not effectively over until Operation Unity in Y203-Y205
The Trade Wars began shortly thereafter."
That's about all I know of it.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:07 am: Edit |
Sup. 2 has almost a whole page dedicated to the trade wars. Again, not sure how much of what's there is still applicable, but it may still be okay...it doesn't rely on the defunct X2 rules that supplement had in it to still remain a valid description of the timeline.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 10:37 am: Edit |
"War Cruisers, War Destroyers: An unlikely sale, considering their greatly shortened life span. Would you be interested in buying an appliance well past its normal service life and likely to break down any minute if it hadn't done so already? I sure wouldn’t'."
Didn't bother the Romulans to buy obsolete equipment, why would it bother a newly independent colony world with a need for in system defense? Remember the point is to create a game reason for multi-generational battles. We want X2 to integrate with the richness of the SFU, not stand-alone.
“Neutral zones are greatly expanded; so much so that the Federation is reduced to 1/2 it's pre-war boundaries. Others are reduced similarly.”
Fine
“Fleets are extremely small.”
X2 ships are produced in small numbers, fleets still have huge inventories of surplus Andro war ships to dispose of.
“Direct combat is avoided as much as possible to prevent ship losses.”
Does this need to be stated so bluntly? I’d rather imply that the Admiralty would be poorly disposed to Captains who cripple their new X2 cruisers but I’d want to leave the door open enough for some good old fashion death and destruction.
“Ships are used to enforce economic policy or advantages in the neutral areas.”
Fine.
“There are no attrition units allowed; this includes carriers, fighters, war-hull ships, PF's, and mines.”
This is just silly. Bases and planets and neutral non-signatories will certainly have attrition units. The treaty should impose strict limits on offensive attrition unit forces but not an outright ban. A GW CVA duel is hellacious to play, but fun to contemplate. X2 should be reduced for playability reasons, but I object to a ban.
“Between Y204 and Y220, there are some 50 to 200 different skirmishes that are part of the trade war period.”
This is a rather meaningless point.
“Some older ships are purchased for local defense by specific planets, to give them an economic edge.”
I would prefer this to be ‘Huge numbers of war surplus ships were sold off to newly independent planets and trade cartels to provide them with local defense. Planets produced large numbers of ground based fighters and would pay a premium for carriers due to the advantages orbital support provided.’
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 10:51 am: Edit |
Make of it what you will. I'm simply reporting what's written there.
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:25 am: Edit |
Didn't bother the Romulans to buy obsolete equipment, why would it bother a newly independent colony world with a need for in system defense?
Of course it didn't bother the Romulans to buy some D6s and F5s, which for the most part weren't obsolete so much as slightly outdated in the D6s case. Also when you are converting your sublight fleet to warp and lacking in warp capable ships in general, you will take what you can get. IOW, a bad example.
Remember the point is to create a game reason for multi-generational battles. We want X2 to integrate with the richness of the SFU, not stand-alone.
Where are you getting this 'point' from?
I am sure some GW ships and units will show up in the second generation era from time to time, but to think that they will make up the bulk of fleets and see mass tactical duty is erroneous.
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:26 am: Edit |
Checked my X1 background date btw, and it supports what I am saying;
Y180-205 mixed GW fleets and Xships/Xsquadrons
Y205+ second generation X ships take over
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit |
Quote:“Between Y204 and Y220, there are some 50 to 200 different skirmishes that are part of the trade war period.”
This is a rather meaningless point.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:54 pm: Edit |
LK on:
Trade Wars: I would like to think that the Supp. 2 definition would remain intact but having asked SVC directly about that his response was (and I paraphrase) "Clearly there will be something called the Trade Wars. What they will be I don't know. Whether it will remain the same or be completely different is a matter that I haven't decided on."
There is several things that are established in the published history that will shape the situation in Y205.
A) The end of a long period of exhausting war interrupted by the ISC and halted by the Andromedans (i.e. we stopped fighting each other to fight them.)
B) The ISC reduced most Nations to core areas. I asked SVC about what the Nations were doing during Operation Unity and he said they were busy focusing their efforts on supporting Op. Unity (and the local hunting of Andro presence, I assume).
That says to me that in Y205 each race is going to be focusing on rebuilding their Nations. I suspect the Trade Wars will be similar to what was previously published except that they will be more than "Cold", but an active effort to recapture territory, particularly that territory that was in dispute.
The Feds might attempt to make economic in-roads on the outlaying portions of other Nations. Others might attempt to establish a strong military presence in key areas with out having to place entire fleets that require costly support and maintenance.
There in lies the key to X2. An XCC and a XCL presents, let’s say, 500 BPV(ish) of force. 500 BPV of GW era ships will cost much more to support logistically. Probably half. They require a talented but far less numerous crew, something in short supply at the time, I assume.
On GW presence in Y205+: SVC said that GW will remain the backbone of the Fleets for some time. In the context it was stated I took it to mean for the remainder of SFU History. I don't know if that means X2 will be like X1 and be an Elite Force or if, as stated in other sources, they will take over. I would like to see them take over but gradually and compose 1/2 to 2/3s the fleets by the time the Xorks come.
I do see X2 knocking out X1 ships as they should be, IMHO, the more efficient design with less maintenance cost and with broader mission coverage.
On X2 Fleets: I think it highly improbable that there will ever be a large fleet, historically, of pure X2 composition. They will likely be mixed (with various portions of various eras). There will commonly be X2 squadrons and it will take a fleet to defeat them by anything other than another X2 squadron. (Yup, another element to X2)
I will likely prove difficult to maintain a good fleet of mixed eras and that where the XP refit comes in. The XP refit for GW will be as much about fleet compatibility as it will be about bringing up the force level of GW era ships designs. X1 might end up a rare addition to an X2 mixed fleet but should be able to fit in as a combat support role in a fleet formation. That is, X1 ships would might be temporarily pulled from another mission to boost a fleet’s strength but would not normally be apart of an X2 mixed fleet as maintaining a fleet of three eras might prove problematical at best. Their elite power is probably best served as a single Squadron as well. So mixed fleets would be X2 ships with XP ships. Again though, large fleets would be less common than before as they are costly to maintain. And no one wants to trigger another war (yet).
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 01:26 pm: Edit |
BTW: The "LK on..." thing is an attempt at humor and I don't think myself as an authority on any of this. Just MHO.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:30 pm: Edit |
X2 has been phrased as the new production starships. Sure there'll be GW and X1 ships around for years but eventually all-X2 squadrons and fleets are going to emerge.
It's just a matter of attrition.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:54 pm: Edit |
It may be a matter of attrition in a historical sence, but it will never be in the gamer's sence. Meaning that regardless of what the history says, the focus needs to be on the game, and that means X2 ships need to play well with GW ships.
If I want to fly a fleet of X2 Feds against a fleet of X2 Klingons, it needs to work out as a fun and (relatively) balanced battle.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:11 pm: Edit |
John: I think SVC intends that GW era ships will continue in production after Y205. At least I think I recall him say that in a post in one of these X-Files threads.
Jeff: All true, of course. X2 is indeed a tall order. Having to make it sound good, fun to play, and be balanced with its self and other eras while being superior technology.
We are working on, most likely, the most difficult project one could ask for in the SFU. And failure, for the second time, is not an option.
I can see why SVC has this put off for now. Not for reason of fear or anything like that but I'll bet he wants all the previous history worked out first. It would have sucked to design X2 before J2, for example.
Heck, anyone notice that the Advanced shuttle from J2 (that any ship can have after Y175) is better or as good as the Shuttle-X from X1?
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