Archive through August 31, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: First Generation X-ships: X1R The X-ship R Module: Archive through August 31, 2003
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Flying X2 against X2 will be easy to balance compared to getting X2 to balance with GW.

"Of course it didn't bother the Romulans to buy some D6s and F5s, which for the most part weren't obsolete so much as slightly outdated in the D6s case. Also when you are converting your sublight fleet to warp and lacking in warp capable ships in general, you will take what you can get. IOW, a bad example."

The newly independent planets buying GW era ships have nothing. No shipyards. No old ships. Nothing but local fighter/bomber/PF/CO factories. One time they belonged to an Empire and paid taxes to that Empire for protection. Now they have to provide for their own protection. The ships they buy will seldom leave their home system except to escort a slow convoy, a job well suited to a tired old war production hull. YMMV.

[Remember the point is to create a game reason for multi-generational battles. We want X2 to integrate with the richness of the SFU, not stand-alone.]

"Where are you getting this 'point' from? I am sure some GW ships and units will show up in the second generation era from time to time, but to think that they will make up the bulk of fleets and see mass tactical duty is erroneous."

I was making no statement regarding the make-up of an empires fleet, though others have. My statement simply reinforces that independent planets, trade cartels and pirates (if you can tell the difference) will operate with whatever hardware they can find.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:25 pm: Edit

and "whatever hardware they can find" means most of their (former) race's SSDs.

While most planets can't afford a carrier group, one might. And if one might, someone's going to want to play it.

I agree with you Loren, this is a much bigger task than any of us thought it would, when someone last December said "I'd like to see an X2 module. I wonder what would be in it".

As to specifics, I think we all put XP development on hold until R8 is published. As I mentioned in the R8 thread, we're interested because it will be the first time in the SFU that a ship has had mixed technologies. R8 = EW Hulls & MY gizmos. XP = GW Hulls and X1 gizmos. There has to be some sort of consistency.

I need a vacation.
See you in a week.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Yeah we need to see R8 before going much down the road of XP. Plus the fact we cant have transitional ships without knowing what they are transitioning from.

Not to mention the fact that SVC might not like ANY of the proposals we have worked on and junk the whole thing.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Tos, you present a situation (that I agree with) where planets might actually have racially mixed fleets. Having bought what ever they could. Imagin a planet that used to produce several materials including war production items. THis planet is in Klingon teritory but close to Fed space. The ships they end up with might be a F5W, a couple Fed DWs, and three or four Pirate types such as a DBR, and LR and Raider. THey might have built a weponized CommPlat and sevice several Military Auxilaries.
The senario is that the Klingons must retake the system with a XCA and a XDD. Of course, the Feds are there with a XCM but cannot fire on the Klingons without first being fired on (if they do they loose victory points). They can offer support (such as firing on Seeking weapons).

This is semi-typical of the situation I see occuring in the Trade Wars. That and Planets that might hire Mercs to try and remain free. Reverse the rolls for other Planets.

In another situation the Feds and the Klingons might bring cargo to aid the planet and buy their alegence. By turn 10 the player who has transported the most cargo off their cargo vessel wins. In the mean time they can conduct raids to steal cargo (and inturn use it for their own purposes) or just try and destroy the others offerings.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Tos, I understand and agree that border zone planets left to their own devices will buy what they can for self defence. With their limited economics, I don't think war construction hulls are a good buy for them.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

...unless you use them for system defense the way the WYNs use their overgunned non-fish ships. Always close to their bases of supply, war cruisers are a perfect buy for those situations

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:32 pm: Edit

Quote:

For what purpose? The trade war is a cold war. Assuming it stays a cold war (and there is no reason to believe otherwise except possibly for the question mark Xorks) then fleets will be spread across the kingdoms playing 'fire brigade' rather than out and out fleet combat.


1) Is it really a single trade war, or TRADE WARS.
2) The COLDWAR went hot several times over it's history...Korea, Vietnam ( there are a lot of others including the Iran-Iraq war if you count each side supplying each side ).

There's no saying that passing a ten ship fleet inbetween two star systems just to prove you can, won't be enough to make the shouting match between two worlds on the perifery; cool down.


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An unlikely sale, considering their greatly shortened lifespan. Would you be interested in buying an appliance well past its normal service life and likely to break down any minute if it hadn't done so already? I sure wouldnt'.


Ever heard of a Garage sale?

I bought a T.V. from a guy once for 42 dollars ( those who understand will understand ) and it worked for about 8 years, despite being about 15 years old when I bought it.
BEST 40 ODD BUCKS I EVER SPENT.


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“There are no attrition units allowed; this includes carriers, fighters, war-hull ships, PF's, and mines.”
This is just silly. Bases and planets and neutral non-signatories will certainly have attrition units. The treaty should impose strict limits on offensive attrition unit forces but not an outright ban. A GW CVA duel is hellacious to play, but fun to contemplate. X2 should be reduced for playability reasons, but I object to a ban.


Maybe that could be a ban on new construction of higher technology X2 fighters...although even then the Hydrans would go ape, so probably there should be a ban on most races for attrition units, Lyrans PFs and Hydran Stinger-X2s being the exceptions...there has to be some leaniency to get everybody to the table.


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Didn't bother the Romulans to buy obsolete equipment, why would it bother a newly independent colony world with a need for in system defense?

Of course it didn't bother the Romulans to buy some D6s and F5s, which for the most part weren't obsolete so much as slightly outdated in the D6s case. Also when you are converting your sublight fleet to warp and lacking in warp capable ships in general, you will take what you can get. IOW, a bad example.


1) The Romulans bought D5s as well.
2) The Outer Colony Worlds don't have sublight vessels to convert so they are in more dire need of defence and thus more desperate to grab whatever ships are on the market.


Quote:

Checked my X1 background date btw, and it supports what I am saying;

Y180-205 mixed GW fleets and Xships/Xsquadrons
Y205+ second generation X ships take over


It depend how you want to read that.
I would say that the Admiralties were broken into two distinct groups by most empires, the Home Defense Fleets and the Outer Territory fleets.
Indent The Outer Territory Fleets had further to travel ( being the donut and not the hole ) and thus the governments gravitated towards X ships being placed there.
Indent Having vastly smaller areas to cover the home Defense fleets were more able to support slower moving ships.

Hence where the trade wars are happening, the Empires are turning up with X craft and the local defenses are merely using GW ships but if a Pirate tries to "try it on" inb the core worlds, he'll find a Fed CVL or Klingon PFT on his tail rather than an X ship.


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“Between Y204 and Y220, there are some 50 to 200 different skirmishes that are part of the trade war period.”
This is a rather meaningless point.


Perhaps to you. Others may disagree, since this data defines that A) there are no major fleet battles in this period and B) that during this sixteen years, it is likely that someone was fighting with a neighbor pretty much constantly.

I would want to throw that out, but I can still see it as being okay.
If four of those skirmishes were FULL BLOWN WARS between two empires that the adjacent empires sat on theitr hands over announced that; "they wanted nothing to do with it" then those four wars could be considered by some historians, particularly in the light of the immencity of the general war, to constitute simple skirmishes.


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That says to me that in Y205 each race is going to be focusing on rebuilding their Nations. I suspect the Trade Wars will be similar to what was previously published except that they will be more than "Cold", but an active effort to recapture territory, particularly that territory that was in dispute.

The Feds might attempt to make economic in-roads on the outlaying portions of other Nations. Others might attempt to establish a strong military presence in key areas with out having to place entire fleets that require costly support and maintenance.


And some planets are going to want to slip from the nominal control of less demoractic empires to the functional control of more democratic federations...Ooooh, Klingon D5Ws fighting of FXs in the hope that the Klingons will let the planet jion the U.F.P....Sounds like a Disruptor and Ph-1 good time was had by all.


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I would like to see them take over but gradually and compose 1/2 to 2/3s the fleets by the time the Xorks come.


I for one would like GW hulls to be 5/8 to 3/4 of the ships at the start of the X2 period but fall avay to being 1/4 to 1/3 by the time the XOrks begin the inasion.


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I do see X2 knocking out X1 ships as they should be, IMHO, the more efficient design with less maintenance cost and with broader mission coverage.


Mostly it's a strategic movement thing.
X1s will be replaced with X2s after a point but I beleive that point with respect to how much contruction can be made by the varrious empires will be sometime well after Y225.
X1s will start squadrons with the GW defense ships holding up long enough ( if something does happen, even though historically ( if one takes sup' 2 as gosphel ) much didn't ) and as X2 production occours, this will fill in the gaps of the defenses, until X2 rapid responce squadrons are made and thus the X1s get treligated to defense ship roles, and then some of the GW defense ships get phased out and it won't be until every GW ships ( with the exception of ships that X ships don't have hulls for ( Like minsweepers and Hospital ships )) has been phased out.


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Again though, large fleets would be less common than before as they are costly to maintain. And no one wants to trigger another war (yet)


But nobody wants to be the guy to pull his trigger last either.
You'll get some big fleets forming from time to time...think cold war and cuban missile crisis.

Sometimes just organising a ten ship fleet is enough to make the enemy think twice about his beligrant statements/actions...even if you have no real intention of using it.


Quote:

This planet is in Klingon teritory but close to Fed space. The ships they end up with might be a F5W, a couple Fed DWs, and three or four Pirate types such as a DBR, and LR and Raider. THey might have built a weponized CommPlat and sevice several Military Auxilaries.


Yeah, I think we need to have some restrictions to techsloshing about the fact that some planets might be able to buy a few ships of different technologies.

I would say as follows:-
Empires don't just sell a couple of ships but they purchaser needs to pay for a technical overseer to oversee the repairs of techically critical ( although this is less true because the technonlogy has gotten old ) systems.
These systems shall be listed in X2 but I suspect is limited only to Heavy Weapons and G-phasers.
The Overseer must oversee the rapir of the technologically sensative system to make sure the technology isn't smuggled to enemies ( can you imagine what the Lyrans would do with ECM drones and A-racks!?! ).
This creates several problems for the neutral nations that buy these ships.
1) It can not repair the heavy weapon with CDR during a scenario.
2) Because of limited numbers of spares ( to reduce the chance of theift ) it can only repair one such damaged heavy weapon during the post scenario repairs.
3) The ship can not engage in an OVERHAUL during a campaign that it might be engaging in.
4) The spare parts can not be used to repair a different ship, the overseer will loose his job so he won't let that happen.


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Tos, I understand and agree that border zone planets left to their own devices will buy what they can for self defence. With their limited economics, I don't think war construction hulls are a good buy for them.


That depends on three things.
1) How bad is the ecconomy of the seller.
2) Are there any number/tonnage requirments in THE TREATY.
3) How good is the ecconomy of the buyer.

If you can buy either a Fed BCJ or a DWC, DWD & DW, you'ld buy the little ships, as you'ld have less to loose if one was lost and less chance of having one sneak up on you...but what if the BCJ was going for 10% more than the DWC!?!

Most small outerworld will be defensed by small numbers of frigates and destroyers.
But a few smaller outer worlds will be defended by war-cruisers and few by larger ships...can you say D7V!?!


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...unless you use them for system defense the way the WYNs use their overgunned non-fish ships. Always close to their bases of supply, war cruisers are a perfect buy for those situations


I'm not sure how much longer the ship will last by running around at frieghter speeds...but I think a requirement that all outerworlds have 80% POOR crews ( and only 20% regular ) on their ships because they have neither the ACADEMY to train them nor the populations to statifactorily crew them, that would be a starting points...although maybe with the lower numbers of ships the GW ships still held by the GW powers will be under manned and thus effectively run as a poor crew and thus poor becomes standards ( although time travelling ships will require that crews that move to poor ( even if that is vast majority of them ) function as poor ).

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 02:41 am: Edit

By John Trauger ;
...unless you use them for system defense the way the WYNs use their overgunned non-fish ships. Always close to their bases of supply, war cruisers are a perfect buy for those situations


Bases of supply are irrelevant to war construction ships. They have a limited lifespan, not a limited range.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 03:00 am: Edit

By michael john campbell ;

1) Is it really a single trade war, or TRADE WARS.

Irrelevant. The level of conflict is largely going to be the same. ie: low intensity, no major fleet actions.

2) The COLDWAR went hot several times over it's history...Korea, Vietnam ( there are a lot of others including the Iran-Iraq war if you count each side supplying each side ).

I'd say that's exactly what makes a cold war cold...no direct conflict by the major powers but meddling in local conflicts by one or both of them.


I bought a T.V. from a guy once for 42 dollars ( those who understand will understand ) and it worked for about 8 years, despite being about 15 years old when I bought it.

Good for you. Glad you won the used appliance lottery. Most electronic appliances these days are horrible buys second hand. I'd wager that your Tv was built before 'programmed obsolescence'(ie: 'war construction') became a reality.


1) The Romulans bought D5s as well.

IIRC this was only because of a Sph squadron lost in Klingon territory that the Klinks wanted to keep for some reason. So more of a trade than a sale, and more of an oddity than a major transaction. And it certainly means nothing in terms of supporting your erroneous premise of 'cva and pft fleets for everyone' during the X2 era.

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Quote:
Checked my X1 background date btw, and it supports what I am saying;

Y180-205 mixed GW fleets and Xships/Xsquadrons
Y205+ second generation X ships take over


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It depend how you want to read that.

Its pretty simple really. The major powers used combined gw/x1 fleets and some x1 squadrons until the x2 era. Then they didn't. End of story.


I would want to throw that out, but I can still see it as being okay.
If four of those skirmishes were FULL BLOWN WARS

There were'nt any. Thats the point.

By Jay K Gustafson (Jay) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

We could use some X2 tugs.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Geoff,

Bases of supply make a tremendous difference.

War cruisers do in fact need more frequent maintainance and have a shorter cruising range/time, just as the WYN defense ships do. The WYN ships are an even more extreme case than war production ships.

The limited lifespan comes more from a combination of corner-cutting and battlefield attrition.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

True. That very point is brought up in supplement 2's history of the Trade Wars; that one reason the various races didn't argue the outlawing of attrition units and war cruisers was that with the new, wider neutral zones, they hadn't the range to operate effectively. Bases in the neutral zones were not allowed, so any ships the various races had to use needed long legs, indeed.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

The problem is that the F&E map doesn't really support the claim. Being able to move 6 hexes, CWs have plenty of range to zip across just about any neutral zone.

X2 certainly didn't need those wierd "hold" boxes to do their job.

I mean, who's enforcing these neutral zones, the organians?

besides, it's Old X2. Toss it.

The only other useful reference to the trade wars is the game Star Fleet Warlord, which is the economic (and sometimes miliraty) conquest of the LMC. It might actually be a decent guide to the trade wars.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Actually, yes...the Organians DID enforce it all. The story goes that after Op Unity, the Organians stepped in and set up a new system to keep the peace. This system had three major parts: the vastly widened neutral zones, the elimination of all attrition units, heavy carriers, DN's and scouts, and the limiting of everyone's fleet size.

I never got to play F&E (bummer...I've got it, but no one wants to try it), but take a look at the map and then cut everyone's territory in half, leaving the gaps as neutral. I imagine it's a major difference. Moving six hexes between bases is one thing; moving six or more hexes to get to enemy territory, then moving back all with no logistics bases on the way is pretty tough.

I know it's old X2, and that it is suspect. However, it's the only detailed information ever printed on the time period, and as Loren told us, SVC hasn't nixed it yet. He ditched the ships and rules, but the history may stay just as written.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 04:44 pm: Edit

I say come up with soemthing better, personally.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 06:11 pm: Edit

IIRC the limited range on C/DWs is old information, replaced with the limited lifespan instead. I'm sure this was asked specefically before and SVC answered as such.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

If the ships are mostly for in-system use and they're close to people who can keep them in constant maitenance, they'll last just fine.

They don't suddenly fall apart when their warrenties run out.

That's why bases of supply (and distance from) figures large. For reasons you mention, war production ships would also be the ones most likely to be sold off by the large powers.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 12:04 am: Edit

They don't suddenly fall apart when their warrenties run out.

No,they don't. But their maintenance costs and their time in drydock as opposed to time on station does go through the roof. That is what makes them poor buys nearly 30 years after they first entered service.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

I don't think players would be pleased if we were to tell them they couldn't fly the D5 they wanted to in Y205 because it war out.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 05:00 am: Edit

Quote:

Bases of supply are irrelevant to war construction ships. They have a limited lifespan, not a limited range.


Why is it that everything you want to dis' gets labled as IRRELEVANT!?!

It's very improtant.
You teel us what cuts the life span short anmd I'll tell you if being close to a base matters or not.


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Irrelevant. The level of conflict is largely going to be the same. ie: low intensity, no major fleet actions.

2) The COLDWAR went hot several times over it's history...Korea, Vietnam ( there are a lot of others including the Iran-Iraq war if you count each side supplying each side ).

I'd say that's exactly what makes a cold war cold...no direct conflict by the major powers but meddling in local conflicts by one or both of them.


I'ld say blockaiding Cuba took a lot of ships, ergo, a Big fleet would be needed in the SFU for such a crissis.


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I bought a T.V. from a guy once for 42 dollars ( those who understand will understand ) and it worked for about 8 years, despite being about 15 years old when I bought it.

Good for you. Glad you won the used appliance lottery. Most electronic appliances these days are horrible buys second hand. I'd wager that your Tv was built before 'programmed obsolescence'(ie: 'war construction') became a reality.


1) Is programmed Obsolence a thing that even exists in the SFU?
2) Is it something designed into warcruisers?
3) Can it be overcome...seriously, if I bought a war cruiser going cheap I'ld ask a lot of questions about servise ability...Australia is still flying F-111s even though the US isn't because but we made sure we had the spare parts to keep the things running until the 2020 data we stand them down.
Having trained and quailified staff at the nearest base will extend the longevity of a ship, even a ship with programmed oboslesence.


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I would want to throw that out, but I can still see it as being okay.
If four of those skirmishes were FULL BLOWN WARS

There were'nt any. Thats the point.


If one takes a litteral interpreytation yes, but if one take a creative interpretation ( supplement 2 is being superceeded by X2) then one can see things differently.


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No,they don't. But their maintenance costs and their time in drydock as opposed to time on station does go through the roof. That is what makes them poor buys nearly 30 years after they first entered service.


But if thjere's nothing else to buy then that's not such a big concern.

Ever wondered why for most of the 1980s the arms industry outstripped the world wide trade in both legal and illegal drugs?

Governments will pay big bickies for the something that will keep them in power...to heel with education and health care!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 05:05 am: Edit

Some of you might find this email from steve cole interesting or mayby just disheartening.


Quote:

>There is an idea I have had about X2.

I am not even thinking about X2. Put it in the topic and when the day dawns
for me to do X2 I'll read it.

>That some X2 weapons would appear on X1 ships ( as limited forms of their
>X2 selves ), specifically the Ph-5 and the Kzinti Overload-able Disruptor
>Cannon.

I have no knowledge that such weapons are part of X2.

>One thing just about everybody agress on about X2 is that ships should be
>limited in their numbers of phasers by some kind of treaty,

This ways lies madness. I am certainly, absolutely, NOT GOING IN THIS
DIRECTION.


Steve Cole edited out a lot of the question I wote answering the question he'ld rather answer than the question that was asked, but it shines some light on where we think X2 should be taken.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 08:25 am: Edit

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One thing just about everybody agress on about X2 is that ships should be limited in their numbers of phasers by some kind of treaty



What? I hadn't heard this one. The only treaty I can recall ever really talking about is one that just limits the number of hulls available. Not saying it didn't come up, I just don't remember it...and wouldn't agree with it, if it did. Each race designs their ships in such ways as to make it almost impossible to set a fixed number of phasers for a hull. It's much easier to limit the number of hulls by size class, and keep the BPV's ballanced.

Thought about this last night, specifically the impact X2 and the Trade Wars will have on inter-generational play. Presumably, X2 will replace all new construction, so no GW or X1 will be built after Y205. Tos raised the point that people who want to play a D5 after this period ought to be able to, and he's right. I think we can accomadate this, and even more. This is a long post, but follow along.

For there to be Trade Wars, which are economic wars, there will have to be a reason. In the GW period, each race basically bounds another on all sides, with a very thin neutral zone in between. In other words, the only way to get new planets, and the goods they offer, is by military conquest. For there to be Trade Wars, there has to be a big jump in both the need for services and goods, and the abilty to compete for them. Widening the neutral zones signifigantly, whether by treaty or Organian enforcement, will help accomplish this because it takes away plantes and resources from "owning" empires, and makes them neutral. Now, worlds a given race had free access to are independent, and can give their goods to the highest bidder. In a period when everyone is re-building their fleets, these goods and services will be absolutely essential...and these newly independent worlds will know this.

So, let's take an example. Planet Omega, formerly on the border of the Federation next to the Klingons, is now three F&E hexes from either. They produce Dilithium in sufficient quantities that both sides want to have control of the system. So, the Feds will of course take the approach that this planet was once a Federation member, and under Federation protection. Since that isn't true, the planet will be in danger from pirates, the Klingons, or even other independent worlds with sponsorship from competing empires. So, they offer to sell or practically give away some ships to help defend this planet; say, a HDW and a squadron of F15's. In return, they want to keep getting dilithium for the same low cost as before...and they DON'T want anyone else buying it, either. Well, along come the Klingons. THEY want dilithium, too, and had actually controlled this world in the early stages of the GW. They make a similar offer; we'll give you a D5 and an E4, if you let us buy dilithium for a low cost.

The Omegans are in a great position. They can bargain, and hard, with either side for their dilithium. They have no fear of being overrun and conquered, because they are in the neutral zone and it isn't allowed (again, pick your reason). Each side will have to agree to certain costs and give up a certain amount of aid in the form of ships and training to get the goods they need.

Now. Imagine this scenario played out all over the quadrant. This is going on between EVERY race, even allied races, because they all need these goods that the other planets have, and they all have access to these planets, since the neutral zones are so expanded. The opportunity for conflict is nearly limitless...you can have Feds vs. Gorn, because a given planet might have bought Gorn ships for defense. You can have, for the same reason, Klingon vs. Lyran, Kzinti vs. Federation, Romulan vs. Hydran...almost any combination you can think of. It won't be race vs. race, it'll be technology vs. technology, as each empire tries to win influence with the planets they want preferrential treatment from. Toss in the odd pirate here and there, and you can have just about any conflict you want. The only restriction I can reasonably see would be the size of the conflict; I can't really see major fleet battles.

This set up will help facilitate just about any kind of fight you like; even more than before. And, it helps explain why the various empires got rid of alot of their older stuff (at least, what was left after the ISC and Andy's got done with them)...they needed it as bargaining chips and to secure continued flow of goods from worlds they need and now have no direct control over. The only thing they build now is X ships, and they sure as hell aren't giving those away. They use those to patrol, run off pirates, or add a presence at a particular world in the neutral zone that might need it. The super-wide neutral zones are also going to be very difficult to patrol, as the limited number of ships can't be everywhere at once, and no empire is particularly responsible for a given section. Perfect way for an invading race to get in unnoticed...

Anyway, sorry for the length of the post. Hope this makes some sense.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 08:44 am: Edit

Quote:

What? I hadn't heard this one. The only treaty I can recall ever really talking about is one that just limits the number of hulls available.


Perhaps it was Tos, LK and myself that felt it was worth following...but do you want an XDD with 9Ph-5s!?!


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Presumably, X2 will replace all new construction, so no GW or X1 will be built after Y205.


I was under the impression that so few X hulls were made was because they were difficult to make (hence XP rather than EP to build X ships inb F&E), so ome would assume that the high-tech shipsyards moved to X2 contruction and then sold their old manufacturing equipment to other ship yards that thuis got the ability to build X1s.

In F&E terms this would mean that X2 ships are bought with XP and X1 ships can start to be bought with EP.


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Toss in the odd pirate here and there, and you can have just about any conflict you want. The only restriction I can reasonably see would be the size of the conflict; I can't really see major fleet battles.


It'll be a bit like an assault on a starbase, much talked about, frequently trained for, far less common than you'ld think.

I can see a DWC and a D5W working on the same team, fending off either the show of force from a Fed XDD of an actual invasion attempt by a Klingon XD5...mixed races...share the love:- find new flavour...Tiger Woods is Asian.


Quote:

Anyway, sorry for the length of the post. Hope this makes some sense.


That's perfectly okay...At Zulu +10, I tend to make massive posts that respond to every post submitted in a standard US Day...I'm not gunna complain if someone else does it.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 09:14 am: Edit

Hell, even more; there's nothing to say that, like some of the Wyn or LDR ships, that you can see combinations of foreign hulls/weapons. How 'bout a Lyran Tiger with Vudar Ion Cannons and IPGs instead of disruptors and ESG's? Or a D5 with photons? Lots of possiblities.

And no; I don't want to see a DD with 9 P-5's. But, It would be darn hard to put that many on such a small hull, anyway, and expensive to boot. I have no problem limiting phasers; I just don't think a treaty would get it done.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Mike R. excellent post, that's more or less how I see it as well, although I think there will be more conflict in the neutral zone then you alleged, otherwise there is little need for the independents to have warships.

MJC,
interesting that you cut the most relevant parts from my post in your response, I assume you are now giving up the notion of CVA/PFT backboned major fleets and fleet battles. That is what struck me as very flawed statements.

By michael john campbell ;

Why is it that everything you want to dis' gets labled as IRRELEVANT!?!


Not dis. What I'm pointing out is that bases of supply are relevant to supply. Not a solution to shortened service life. You can only repair a unit so much, but once past its normal service life its battle worthiness will degrade considerably. I would assume that 99% of all units will have a base of supply anyways, as that is what they are defending or fighting from in most cases.


I'ld say blockaiding Cuba took a lot of ships, ergo, a Big fleet would be needed in the SFU for such a crissis.

What crisis? Show me a seeking weapon that can reach Sol from within the neutral zone. Poor example.

Even so, this does nothing to support your original premise of big tactical fleets with attrition units in big battles. A blockade would take a squadron or two of starships strung out across space interdicting frieghters and blockade runners.


1) Is programmed Obsolence a thing that even exists in the SFU?
2) Is it something designed into warcruisers?

Via a design flaw that is accepted in construction costs, yes.



If one takes a litteral interpreytation yes,

Correct.

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