MJC: Not everyone is wedded to every detail of the old Supplement 2 history, but I like the concept of the Trade Wars because that permits the creation of scenarios and campaigns that would not exist in the earlier time periods. I find the idea of having the same scenario concepts repackaged with new ships less than exciting.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 12:58 am: Edit

Y205-Y220 is an era of weakness and recovery. Sort of like what could have happened in 1919-1930 if the US had been wrecked as badly as Europe had been in WWI.

Y205 - Everyone would retreat to their core worlds. The X2 ships come out, but not yet in sufficient numbers to quickly re-establish the old spheres of influence. Pirates have plenty of places to plunder. Indeed, Y205-Y210 is The Age of The Pirate.

Y210-Y220 - Gradually, as fleets are rebuilt, everyone would scramble to reclaim their spheres of influence. Some planets are retaken by their old masters; some planets are taken by their old master's neighbors; some planets manage to remain unconquered. Pirate influence declines.

By Y220, the empires are back to "roughly" the same borders as in Y167. There's tension between the nations, but nobody wants another General War. Although, some races just can't help themselves as the low-intensity combat creeps into medium-intensity in some places.

But, in Y225, a new common enemy appears. At first, the Klingons think it's the Romulans; the Kzinti think it's the Lyrans, etc. The Cold War becomes a Hot War, and the Xorks play the warring races against each other.

By Y230, everyone realizes the Xorks are a new common enemy, and the races ally again.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 01:39 am: Edit

Jeff: This is what I'm saying.

Something to note: Supp. 2 said something interesting about Pirates that I have a gut feeling SVC will (might) stick with. In the wide neutral/devastated zones pirate activity actually declines and legitimate opportunities are too profitable to ignore. Of course pirates remain but the majority move on to greener pastures. So as the Nations retake their space pirate activity might increase with the increase presence of governmental law.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 01:46 am: Edit

Whether business for the pirates is real good, plain good, or just ok, I don't think it's worth arguing about.

As long as there will be some pirates in the neutral zones.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 02:00 am: Edit

I didn't intend to argue. Goodness no. I was just pointing that little tid bit out.

Of course, there will certainly be more activity than any one would/could play.

BTW: Nothing in this board is worth arguing over. But a good debate is grand!

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 02:10 am: Edit

Good. Now that you see things my way , if we could just get the ships to work, we'd be done.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 02:36 am: Edit

Regarding the LMC Warlord Trade War concept. Not a terrible idea but it will have little impact on politics in the Alpha quadrant. For now I think it best to determine what Alpha Trade War looks like and then extrapolate the final product into the LMC. One note is that it will take some time to make colonies/territory in the LMC profitable.

I'll address the neutral zone comments when I have time and sleep, but, the assumption that the races will have very small fleets at the end of the Andro I believe is backward.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

Tos, indeed, during Op Unity the races are in full gear to support that Opperation. Production will have been at maximum. No one knew if OpU would succeed and all were preparing for the worst. During the years of OpU we were on the offensive and not getting beat down as earlier. There might well be quite the cosiderable fleet of ships that are brand new and haven't seen real battle yet.

Jeff: Ah but it tis thee that see things MY way!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 01:54 pm: Edit

having read the intervening messages, I have this to say:

The "wide neutral zone" part of the Supplement 2 backstory produced the Old X2 ships with the questionalble "hold" box. It adds nothing but cargo boxes under a different name to combat ships. Booooaring.

You don't need "nautral zones" of any sort, let alone wide ones. Several messages have gone toward this idea without actually stating it: the devestated space betweent he empires will itself serve as a de-facto neural zone. I do not disagree that independent-minded planets might need to be brought to heel and some empires might try to hold onto some of their General-War driven gains, creating a series of two-power conflicts and/or skirmishes. As has been pointed out by SVC, the SFU has rarely been free of war.

The only ones who might gain ground in the whole thing is the ISC, whose remote location meant they were only hurt by Andro attacks against them. I don't belive any Alpha Sector power ever penetrated ISC home space.

Mike,

According to the Op Unity rules, the empiers took 3 different routes to the LMC. Now that the infastrucutre exists and everyone knows how to get there, it'll probably easier to retrace their steps to the LMC. Each empire could easily make their own way without aid. What's more, most of the empires have core fleets there. Those fleets can make the way easier for inbound ships. If the LMC is a treasurehouse of new systems (and for the time being orion-free), those fleets would not be recalled.

Jeff,

I don't see anybody "retreating" to their core worlds. The moment they do, we lose the ability to generate scenatios.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit

John,

I know, but the problem remains that during Op Unity, there was cooperation by necessity against a common foe; in a colonization race, no cooperation is going to exist, and there will be those who must cross someone else's territory to get there. That's going to be very difficult to do.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Not necessarily. The galaxy isn't that thick, especially as compared to the distance to the LMC.

Anyone can go up and over.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

John, the term "Neutral Zone" is less than accurate, I agree. I use it as "Non-Empire Space". It's true that to be an actual "Neutral Zone" there would be some sort of treaty or agreement creating it.

Originally, the ISC forced the Nations back to their core areas and then the Andros attacked. According to SVC all the races were focused 100% on Op Unity. So, at the cose of the Andro War the races are still mostly withdrawn to their core areas. I think it's OK that for a few years there not be much Alpha conflicts as the races retake their systems. THe conflicts can occure in the LMC.

Up and Over isn't really possible as I see it otherwise the Klingons and Romulans would never have lost contact. And the Feds could directly attack the Lyrans.

However, in a previous post I suggested the ALMCTA (Alpha-LMC-Trade Authority). These would be granted traid routes through where ever nessasary. It would be part of the Trade Authorities duty to protect the convoys and to keep them strickly on route. Guys, this could be a defacto new race consisting of samples from every race and modified to a common standard. In fact, I'm going to prepare a full proposal. I think this goes good with a new concept of "The Trade Wars".

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Hmmm, and provides a real niche for my new freighter design!

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Neutral Zones: Excerpts from (R13.1A) and (R10.1B)
In Y185 the Alliance had pushed back the Coalition to approximately the original Y165 borders. In Y186 the ISC invaded and declared peace in our time and created neutral zones three or more times the size of the Y168 border. The formal pacification splintered in Y188 as the Andromedans descended upon the galaxy rapidly destroying 2/3 of the ISC fleet.

The Andromedan war raged from Y188-Y202 and reached the height of their power in Y197. During the war each empire could muster the forces to defend only about a dozen F&E hexes surrounding the capital. To put that in perspective the Klingons controlled 135 hexes in Y165 (read: The Empires were reduced to 10% of their original size). By the end of the Andromedan war the neutral zones were about 8 hexes wide.

Planets liberated by the ISC in Y186 enjoyed 16 years of independence, some more, some less. Nearly a generation of independence and devastation did not leave many colonies inclined to reintegrate into the Empires that spawned and once ruled them. The Empires at the conclusion of the Andromedan war were not inclined to wage another decade long war to reclaim their lost colonies.

In Y204 the treaty of Washington was signed by all major races and the League of Newly Independent Worlds (NIW). As a political entity the NIW held considerable power in this period. The Andromedans conquered the neutral zones but after destroying the fleet elements and fixed defenses they left most worlds intact and under local control. The NIW enjoyed their long independence and most were not about to submit to reunification, though many did (read: we can establish the border anywhere we want). To gain collective independence the NIW agreed to a mutual defense treaty. While an independent world is no match for the strength of the most devastated Empire no Empire was willing to be formally at war with the NIW. The NIW were never an offensive military threat to any of the Empires, they wielded the devastating power of the trade sanction. Any Empire that lost trading rights with the NIW would be at a severe disadvantage during the decades of reconstruction. The weakened Empires were economically forced into accepting the independence of the NIW and the fleet limitations imposed by the treaty. As dictated by the treaty surplus warships were sold off to NIW member worlds and trade cartels as a means of raising cash and currying favorable trade relations.

Let the Trade Wars begin.

The huge Neutral Zones are facts, go read (R10.1B). The Empires end the Andromedan war crippled and cannot spare the resources to colonize the LMC, particularly since last I checked the LMC was populated by Empires of their own.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 07:02 pm: Edit

This dovetails nicely with the old Supplement 2 data I've mentioned...in fact, some of it is exactly the same. The only thing it doesn't address is the size of the post-Andro fleets. Sounds like they didn't have much left, though, which might help explain the X ship concept (quality over quantity). Good post, Tos.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

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JT said:

Without a power from above decreeing a wide neutral zone, the powers will move into those places.

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Exactly. And it is the "moving in" that will give us the framework for generatiing scenarios.

Race X wants to move in on a formerly controled planet. They send an XDD. Planet has a couple of XP "new national guard" ships for defence. That's a scenario.

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Jeff Tonglet: YES [slams fist on desk then reacts quickly to save keyboard from bouncing coffee].

Yes, thank you!

I would suggest that 2/3 to 3/4 or the old territory is reintegrated into their respective Nations by Y225 (when everything come undone).

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MJC: Not everyone is wedded to every detail of the old Supplement 2 history, but I like the concept of the Trade Wars because that permits the creation of scenarios and campaigns that would not exist in the earlier time periods. I find the idea of having the same scenario concepts repackaged with new ships less than exciting.

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The "wide neutral zone" part of the Supplement 2 backstory produced the Old X2 ships with the questionalble "hold" box. It adds nothing but cargo boxes under a different name to combat ships. Booooaring.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 09:58 pm: Edit

I'm sorry but I don't see the NIW being able to form. The worlds in the devestated zones are way bad off. Some, with outside help would recover (pirates gone lagit) faster than others. Andros would leave worlds untouched. They enslave Galactics. Communication between worlds would be very difficult and we are talking hundreds of worlds/Colonies. Each nation would have various reactions that would not be compatable with others. There would be just too much caos for all those independant planets to maintain continuous communication and to agree amongst themselves. 75 worlds in an Empire don't have to agree with 74 other planets and cultures, they only have to agree with one; the Empire in control. For the NIW to form thay all would have to agree with each other. Old Klingon worlds, Fed worlds, Kzinti worlds, Romulan and Gorn worlds all communicationg and agreeing? Maybe after 50 years with no intervention from the previous Empires or Pirates.

Many Federation worlds would wish to return to the Federation, Racial Klingon worlds would return having never thought themselves separate,though there would be many that would have to be taken back, which the Klingons wouldn't think twice about doing. The Gorns lost worlds are all (or mostly) Gorn, anyway. Lyrans might have in-fighting but few counties would allow non-Lyran intervention. The Kzinti might fit this role the most but they are small to begin with.

However, the further from the core the more independant the thinking would be and so there in is the work of rebuilding. But there more to it than just retaking old space and planetary systems, there is the building of infrustructure and confidence.

As I stated before the various nations have been preparing for Op Unity to fail and aren't helpless. The rebuilding effort would begin almost imediatly. The LMC, IMO, would be irresistable but if not shared would be the kindling for war. A Trade Autority could maintain the peace. Now, many of the LMC Empires, as I understand it, were devestated by the Andros. Many of those planets would need help and the Alpha nations would provide security and a means for trade to help them recover. I suppose that someday they might, after a long period of recovery, vie for independance. Which, might be begrudgingly granted so long as the Trade Authority remains intact.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Would the X2 module cover the Alpha quadrant, or the LMC, in Y205?

I thought StarFleet Warlord had already covered the LMC.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Is SFW official SFU history?

I think it would cover X2 ships and technology and would give history concerning both the Alpha Quad. and the LMC (if the LMC is something that is relevant).

I'm entertaining this LMC idea because it is rich with possabilities. X2 hardly hinges on it though.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 05:30 am: Edit

IMO the LMC stuff is just added flavor text. The real meat of 2X needs to be the Alpha sector.

It has possibilities but not enough to make it worth a lot of bandwidth on our part right now. Anyway aren't the ships used in SFW surplus fleet ships bought by the corporations?

So why do we need to worry much about it in 2X. As anything more than a scenario generator.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 05:54 am: Edit

1) Let's move this to the X2 Timeline thread.
2) I don't think the Newly Independant World would form much or a confederation amoungst themslves and indeed I think it would be counter productive with respect the scenarios we could otherwise create.
3) The Conquest of the Lesser Melangelic Cloud is not really the core of X2 play and we should be looking at Alpha ( and Beta ) Quadrants, instead.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 12:38 pm: Edit

The entire environment would affect ship design a lot. The LMC part might affect design a little. It might even create entire specialty designs that end up useful every where (some of which I've already designed and found the LMC idea a perfect niche for them). So, yes the LMC idea would create a lot of scenarios but also will infuence designs of some ships (like variants for the ALMCTA (Trade Authority)).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

The NIW need only agree on one topic: Freedom. What choice do they have? When the Empire comes a knocking and says we want you to pay 16 years of back taxes so we can reconstruct our core infrastructure the answer has to be forgettaboutit.

The NIW are not a political entity. The NIW will war amongst themselves. The NIW will pirate one another’s convoys. The NIW will make deals, hire protection and look out for their own best interest. Some NIW worlds will become NIW systems or merge to form loose regional governments under some common bond or need, not unlike the Vudar without the monoracial overtones. Some NIW worlds will voluntarily reintegrate with the core Empire.

The NIW worlds only have one weapon: trade sanctions. Should any of the Empire attempt to take back a NIW world by force that Empire will find their external trade slammed shut. Yes there will be collaborators and defectors and the system will eventually fail but not many Empires will be willing to risk the consequences for the first decade.

I'll let this simmer for a day or so here and post a revised concept into the timeline thread.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

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When the Empire comes a knocking and says we want you to pay 16 years of back taxes so we can reconstruct our core infrastructure...

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Imagine a world near the Fed Klingon border.

Imagine a mixed-race population.

Which empire would it want to join?