Archive through June 27, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
Other Proposals:
Tholians as a major race-- can they be beaten?:
Archive through June 27, 2003
Well, they don't need the money from the territory (necessarily). They could drop down a base on an asteroid, planet, moon, etc and start setting up web.
Scorched earth would end up costing the Tholians enemies as much or more...
John, schorched earth is not allowed in F&E
basicly everyone ends up fighting everyone at some point in history so if one race starts useing schored earth against the tholians in this war they are likly to use it agains you in the next war, this is enough of a threat that everyone would ally against the race starting to use schorched earth, everyone knows this so nobody is willing to risk it.
note that this is different then devestating a planet which knocks out it's defenses and a good portion of it's infrastructure, this is a nessasary part of capturing a planet (i.e. you don't do it to your planets, the tholians will do it when they capture them) planets recover from devestation in a few years.
To Andy Palmer:
I generally agree with you about Tholian fighters (except for the Spider-V, the Tholian fast heavy fighter) but the Arachnid PF is one of the most cost effective attrition units in the game. Specifically, the Arachnid-PW (no disruptors but 4 Phaser-1s, web generators replace the Phaser-3s) is staggeringly efficient in the base defense role. A flotilla of Arachnid-Ps would include 20 Phaser-1s, not counting the phasers on the scout. In the close confines of a web battle (PFs firing at range 3 from behind the middle ring, against a ship trapped in the outer ring) they can just about cripple one cruiser per turn while taking no damage in the process. (And we haven't even started with the base's Phaser-4s yet.) With the W modification the Tholians can instead use PFs to reinforce the web without putting any actual ships at risk. Allthough you can't do this in F&E, in SFB it is possible for the Tholians to construct and defend a full 3-tier wedding cake without any ships at all. (I don't recommend this course of action, but it is possible.)
Regarding your other points:
1. Much better than fighting at a base (yours or theirs) but the premise of this thread is that the Tholians have the resources to qualify as a "major power" and on those terms, even in open space the Tholians are at least the equal of most other races and have a definite edge over plasma races.
2. But re-read the rules on web/explosion interactions (G10.72 and G10.76). Among the several lesser-heralded but useful capabilities of a webcaster is its utility in mine clearing operations.
3. True, but what if the Tholians send a fleet against one of your Starbases or major planets? You either fight a fleet action or allow the base/planet to go down.
4. A valid point but the Tholians are probably less vulnerable to this than most other races. Just about every Archaeo-Tholian can carry one or more cargo packs. These slow the ship down and in some cases block weapons. But a PC carrying an 8-box pack is still significantly faster, better armed, and better shielded than a small freighter. A DPW carrying a pack (it can carry up to three but any more than one would slow it down more and block the heavy weapons) can still hit a tactical speed of 31, though it wouldn't have much energy to arm weapons at that speed. Still, a DPW with a cargo pack would laugh at any commerce raider short of a BCH. The Tholians probably don't have enough total capacity to handle all their transport needs with packs, but they could use regular freighters deep in the interior and warships carrying packs near thr frontiers where commerce raids are more likely. This is an issue that would have to be worked out in the campaign rules. R7.N1B specifically forbids the carrying of packs simply to act as "padding", and R7.14 notes that only the Cargo Patrol Corvette and LTT routinely carried packs. But in this case the packs are actually being used for the strategic purpose of transporting cargo in high threat areas. In any event, the Tholians are not intrinsically more vulnerable to commerce raiding than any other race and, campaign rules permitting, they have the technical capability to be substantially less vulnerable than most.
In summary I don't think your points are wrong but they are incomplete. I stand by my original conclusion that the Tholians as a major race are not unbeatable but they are very, very strong.
Alan:
1. True. You've got to beat them before they get PFs 
2. Yeah - but if the webs are used on the mines, they're not being used on your picket ships, alowing you to fight on even footing (better, because you know where the mines are).
3. You intercept the fleet before it gets there. If the fleet gets forced to withdraw, you pack as many AUs at the base and try to cause some damage before you self-destruct
4. Not really valid, I'm afraid. If they're using warships to carry cargo, they're not using them to wage war. No full economy in the game can afford to use warships in this manner, except for specific, limited cargo runs.
Alan, while you are thinking of the damage that the tholian PF's can do, think of how many admin shut1tles a fleet+base will have and the damage their massed P-3 will do to an attacker stuck in the web (and they are also likly to close to range 2 to fire as the web will protect them from explosions and weapons fire from the doomed ship won't kill very many of them)
Andy:
But every race is potentially vulnerable to commerce raiding and will have to do something about the threat. If the problem becomes so severe that police forces can not handle it, military forces may be required for convoy protection (as happened during both World Wars, for example). The Tholians are no different from other races in this respect, except that they have an option other races don't. They can use their warships to transport cargo directly rather than to escort convoys. In either case some percent of a race's military strength will have to be diverted to prevent enemy commerce raiders from wrecking the economy. The Tholians have more options concerning how they wish to carry the diversion out. A cargo pack holds a lot less cargo than a freighter but the warship can make the trip much more quickly and the cargo is much better protected. (A small freighter has 5-box shields. A small armed freighter has 10-box shields. Even a PC has 18-box shields.) The superior speed/protection might (I stress might) result in a lower cargo-loss rate. If the logistics of the situation make convoy escort the preferred choice (as measured by minimum diversion of warships necessary to ensure sufficient cargo delivery) than the Tholians are not any worse off than anyone else. But if use of cargo packs turns out to be the preferred choice, the Tholians are better off.
Alan, the problem is that it takes a LOT of warships carrying 8 box cargo pallets to equal the carrying capacity of a convoy of 3xlarge and 3xsmall freighters.
the warships are faster and running at full strategic speeds they can make 1 1/2 trips in the time it takes for the freighter to make 1 trip, but it will still take 18 warships to equal the one convoy and that is a huge difference in cost.
every race has their own tugs and LTT's that are far more efficiant in transporting cargo then anything the tholians have (one tug can useually carry ~50 boxes of cargo including a pod/pallet, with a LTT carrying ~25) they just don't have many of them becouse they are so expensive and take up limited warship production capacity.
also remember the tholians don't have a real tug design so there are some things they have a harder time doing then other races
think about building bases, other races carry a MB on a tug and set it up, the tholians don't have anything that can transport a MB in one piece.
David:
But that convoy will still need warships to protect it from enemy commerce raiders. Tholian warships with packs are "self escorting". And if a strong enemy raiding force attacks the convoy in spite of the escort, the convoy stands to lose a lot of cargo. The freighters' shields are poor (5-box small, 10-box large) and ordinary freighters can not disengage by acceleration. A Tholian warship with a cargo pack can disengage by acceleration (though a CPC with a Pod cannot-see below).
The Tholians don't have a true tug but they do have a Cargo Patrol Corvette and a Light Tactical Transport, both of which can carry cargo PODs though the movement penalty is larger than for a pack. A CPC can carry 8 boxes of cargo internally and a 32-box cargo pod externally and will still be (slightly) faster than a large freighter but with much better shields and weapons. The LTT carries 12 cargo boxes internally and a 32-box pod. The Tholians also have phaser and disruptor armed freighters, both large and small.
True tugs tend to be quite expensive and are built only in small numbers. Given the other demands on tugs (base construction, logistics nodes, etc.) there will never be enough to transport more than a small fraction of all the available cargo. The LTT is based on a war cruiser and would be available in somewhat larger numbers. A "major race" Tholian could, if necessary, build very large numbers of CPCs. Still, for the Tholians or any other race, the majority of the cargo capability will reside in freighters and during wartime those freighters will require escorts. The Tholians can supplement their freighters with cargo packs. Other races can do so with tugs. A tug is far superior in carrying capacity but even very small/inexpensive/numerous Tholian ships (Patrol Corvettes) can carry packs, so the Tholians have a countervailing advantage in number of hulls available.
The lack of a true tug is a strategic Tholian disadvantage. In fact, I meant to mention it in my above post where I mentioned that the Tholians don't have a non-X fast warship. But I ... um .. forgot. But given the Tholian CPC, LTT, and cargo packs; I hardly think the disadvantage is a crippling one. I still believe the Tholians are no worse off than any other race as regards vulnerability to commerce raiding, and may on balance be somewhat better off. The ulimate resolution of this specific issue may depend on the specific strategic/political/economic rules which the players set for the campaign.
One final note on commerce raiding. If a "major race" Tholian is also allowed high-rate webcaster production, the Tholians will likely have enough webcasters to assign webcaster ships to protect the most critical convoys. (In the Tholian home galaxy even destroyers had webcasters.) This gives the Tholians a superior capability to protect their convoys from enemy raiders. If the Tholians are not allowed high-rate webcaster production they will generally not have enough webcaster ships for convoy escort duty but they can still get some limited benefits from snares, since every Tholian ship with web generators is eventually eligible for the snare refit.
Alan, I didn't think the CPC carried a pod, I thought it carried a pallet plus it's internal space.
the LTT is roughly the equivalent of other races LTT, but the tholians used groups of 3 CPC in place of a tug for most missions.
CPC can pull a pod. Has a movement cost of 2/3 when doing it.
On Tholian ships carrying cargo packs, there isn't much of an advantage in shipping, but (asssuming you use supply in your campaign) there is a HUGE adavantage in keeping the ships "in service" longer, due to the ability to carry supplies. you can always drop the packs before an assault, with one ship left behind to "tend" them.
IMHO, allowing THOLIANS as a major race in a campaign is a good idea. It allows for a greater opportunity to play different, unique races that can (potentially) be balanced by small amounts of house rules for the campaign, and player skill level.
NEO-THOLIANS, on the other hand, can be as game-wrecking as unbalanced Andros, Hydrans, or Drex. In all cases, when given full economies, and allowed to build to whim, each given race can be overwhelming for an opponent to face.
Tim:
I don't quite agree with you about the Neo-Tholians. What I believe has the potential to be a game-wrecker is allowing unlimited production of webcasters. There's nothing magical about Neo-Tholian hulls themselves. You want to build an NCL? Fine, but that's a CC that doesn't get upgraded to a CCW. You build an NCH? Then your DP doesn't get upgraded to a DPW, etc. The intrinsic Tholian advantages are enough that with "major race" resources and limited webcaster production the Tholians are potentially the strongest of the "normal" galactic powers. With unlimted webcaster production they verge on really being unbeatable (absent a Seltorian presence in the campaign), at least by any opponent with remotely comparable resources.
Limit webcaster production and that by itself will keep Neo-Tholians in check.
David:
Regarding CPC carrying a pod - it can do so in an "inactive" mode so long as the pod is single-weight. A CPC could theoretically transport a Federation Light Battle Pod fron point-A to point-B but could not use any of its systems. (Why the Federation would want them to do this is another matter... Maybe all the Fed LTTs are tied up with other tasks.) It could not carry a double-weight pod at all. The "inactive" requirement is no limitation at all if the pod is a cargo pod, of course.
"Limit webcaster production and that by itself will keep Neo-Tholians in check."
Alan, that was basically my point. If given the chance, as a Tholian, I would build nothing but Neo-Tholians if given the chance due to the high WC count. Mind you, you can't use them all as web casters, but web fists do good damage at range, so I wouldn't complain.
To answer the topic header. NO. Not if they are allowed to constantly maintain any kind of web at all protecting any kind of base with Ph-4.
Tim:
Reasons to prefer Archeo-Tholians to Neo-Tholians:
1. Photon Torpedoes - Without rehashing the whole photon/disruptor debate which is covered in other threads, I consider them about equal overall. But each has roles for which it is clearly superior to the other. I regard it as a Tholian advantage to be able to produce both disruptor ships and photon ships and I am not aware of any "official" (even if conjectural) Neo-Tholian ships with photons. (Don't know about R-10. I have it on order at the local game store but they haven't gotten it in yet.)
2. Power Curve - Several Archeo-Tholian ships have high speed capabilities that their Neo-Tholian counterparts can't match. CCX and CPX generate 43 points of power with 2/3 movement. NCX generates 49 with 1 movement. 4 point Archeo advantage at max speed. DPW generates 48 points of power. NCH pays 2 1/2 less for house keeping but generates 9 points less and has same movement cost. 6 1/2 point Archeo advantage at all speeds. DPW also has 2 extra batteries. DHW generates 60 points of power with 1 1/3 movement. Neo-Tholian Heavy Dreadnought generates 61 at 1 1/2 movement. 4 point Archeo advantage at max speed. Sometimes you want to go really fast and still generate a reasonable (not maximun, obviously) amount of firepower.
3. Fast Patrol Ships - Neo-Tholian Space Control Ship, Battleship (with mech-link refit) and Stellar Domination Ship are all true PFTs. All these ships are also very expensive. Archeo-Tholian PFTs based on the PC or CW hull are much cheaper and therefor allow PF flotillas to be deployed in greater numbers. They also have scout capability. (Actually, the Tholian PF itself is an Archeo- design but I'm mostly considering the merits of Archeo- versus Neo- ships here.)
4. Electronic Warfare - What Neo-Tholian scout? (Actually, I vaguely remember a conjectural one mentioned but am not sure where it's published or whether it's official even as a conjectural design.)
5. More Cost-Effective Small Ships - I regard the Archeo-Tholian DD (80 points/86 with snare/124 DDX/129 DPX) as the most cost-effective SC4 ship the Tholians have. The Neo-Tholians do have a destroyer with a webcaster but I don't like it very much. I think it is poorly balanced and too expensive. Also, in an earlier CL (don't remember which one) a new webcaster-equipped Archeo-design DD was included. I believe the ship was regarded as "preliminary" and is not yet official. But it if it ever becomes official their would be ZERO reason to ever take a Neo SC4 ship over an Archeo one since that CL destroyer was superior both in absolute terms and cost-effective terms to the NDD in either its standard or heavy versions.
6. Archeo-Tholian Ships Look Cooler - Highly subjective. I also have to admit I like the look of the Neo-Tholian Medium Cruiser and Heavy Command Cruiser. For some reason the Collar on those two ships just makes the whole profile more balanced and "meaner".
Reasons to prefer Neo-Tholians to Archeo-Tholians:
1. Maximum Webcaster Availability - You mentioned this yourself and it is a huge advantage. But after a certain point buying still more webcasters becomes counterproductive if it denies you certain other capabilities like the photon or high speed power curve advantages mentioned above.
2. Command Module Seperation - I'm not a big fan of this capability but there are a few specific times when it is useful. (The operable principle should be that you don't seperate the Module from the rear hull unless you have compelling reason to do so, however. When in doubt, keep them together.)
3. Durable Cruisers - The DPW and DHW are durable ships. But all SC3 and SC4 Archeo ships are fairly fragile. Once you get through their (generally excellent) shields they fall apart quickly. The NCL/NCM and the NCA/NCH have weaker shields but are far more durable internally.
This list is not meant to be exhaustive of the relative merits of Archeo- versus Neo- designs but I believe it highlights the most important ones. (From the above lists I think the most important advantages - not in any particular order - are Archeo-2 and -4 and Neo-1.) If I were playing the Tholians in a campaign with absolutely no production restrictions other than the total size of my economy, I would build a mix of Archeo- and Neo- designs.
Tim:
Two reasons I forgot to mention in the above post.
Archeo-7. Pinwheel - A specialized function but very useful in some specialized circumstances. The most heavily shielded object (not counting reinforcement) the Tholians (or just about anyone) can produce isn't an SBX. It's a CW pinwheel. - 90 shield boxes all around. (It also generates 93 points of power...)
Neo-4. Battleship - If the Tholians want to build a battleship the Neo-Tholian version is the only game in town.
So as I understand it, the general consensus is the following:
1. Unlimited WC production, WITHOUT some counterveiling ability on the part of the enemies (webbreakers) will tend to skew the curve OR-
2. Allowing the Tholians to produce non-standard wepeons, especially GAtling phasers or plasmas, which have a synergistic effect with web and webcasters.
Charles, even with limited WC production the tholians still have some advantages.
namely they have defenses far superior to what anyone else has. if this is not countered in some way (either anti-web technology or shear numbers by limiting their economy) they can still be a significant problem.
depending on the cost of fighters the hydrans can be almost as bad
Charles:
I second David Lang's comments but would also add that webcasters can have synergistic effects with systems other than plasma torpedoes.
1. All seeking weapons, drones as well as plasma. - The most obvious tactics involve using webcasters to trap an enemy so he can't evade the seeking weapons, but other tactics also are effective. Note that seeking weapons can move through web but lose movement based on the web's strength, just like a ship. This is an important point - Tholians can fire their phasers but not heavy weapons through web - Other races cannot fire direct-fire weapons through web but can fire seeking weapons through it, provided the web is weak. If you try to fire a plasma through a strong web it will lose so much movement (counted as hexes travelled for purposes of calculating warhead strength) that it will do very little damage if it reaches the target ship at all. (This assumes the plasma enters the web a significant number of impulses before the web disintegrates.) Plasma fired through a weak web will be only slightly impeded and the plasma ship will be protected from direct-fire from its target while the web is up. Similarly, a fast drone that strikes a strong web will take damage from the impact and may be destroyed. But a fast drone that strikes a weak web will be impeded for a couple of impulses and then continue on its merry way. And if the web was cast adjacent to the target ship or base the target will be denied the most effective -2 and -3 ranges for ADD fire. It will get multiple impulses of range-1 ADD fire while the drone is stuck in the web but range-1 is less effective for ADDs. The target will also get several impulses of range-1 phaser fire (sort of an intrinsic Aegis). If the target unit's phasers are its primary drone defense, use conventional tactics. But if the target's primary drone defense is ADD, consider casting the web. Finally, note that cast web can also be used to block fire from escorts while your drones (or plasma) home on the enemy carrier.
2. Cloaking Device - A ship is vulnerable while cloaking or uncloaking since it cannot fire at approaching seeking weapons and an enemy might also try a direct-fire alpha strike on the last uncloaking impulse when the cloak protection is minimal. A plasma torpedo destroyed in this last-second pre-emptive strike can still be launched as a seeking weapon (but not bolted) for the next eight impulses but any phasers lost are simply gone. And an Orion uncloaking with overloaded photons or hellbores would not be able to fire them if the pre-emptive strike destroyed them. Solution? Use cast web (from a different ship) to protect ships cloaking in or out. And a properly timed cast web lasts long enough for a Romulan to fully uncloak, launch its plasmas through the (weak) web and fully recloak. This is especially devastating against bases since they can not attempt to crash the web or maneuver for a clear line-of-sight. During a campaign in which I was the Tholian and allied to the Romulan, we used this tactic to great effect. I would attach a webcaster ship to a Romulan squadron. The Tholian would hang back at long range while the Romulans approached the base under cloak. When the Romulan was in position I would cast a weak web between the squadron and the base. When the cast web materialized the Romulan would begin to uncloak. The Romulan would launch plasma and recloak before the web disintegrated. The only time the base had a clear line-of-sight/line-of-fire was when the Romulan was fully cloaked so the base's phaser-4s were not really a factor in the battle. (The enemy could also fire the phaser-4s at my Tholian but it was so far away that even phaser-4s wouldn't do much.) The weak web did not protect the Romulan from the base's seeking weapons but the Romulan had plenty of resources to deal with those. He could use phasers once the seeking weapons entered the web and he had a clear line-of-sight. He could use wild weasels. And the cloaking itself would break lock-on for many of the seeking weapons. We quickly realized that because this was a base an even better tactic was available. I would cast a strong web adjacent to the base and timed so that not only did the web protect the Romulan during the cloak-in/fire/cloak-out, but the web would disintegrate before the Romulan plasma reached it. (This meant Romulans had to be far enough back that the plasma could not reach the web during the five-impulse cloak-out. Since the Romulan plasma would strike at full strength up to 10 hexes away (except for F-torps which would still strike at 75% strength) this wasn't really a problem. The web didn't interfere with the Romulan torps at all but since it was strong it gave much better protection against the base's seeking weapons. (The tactic of casting a strong web adjacent to the target rather than a weak one adjacent to the Romulans is riskier agaist enemy ships. They might choose to move into the web, trapping themselves but also gaining a clear line-of-sight for their phasers and direct-fire heavy weapons.) The only defense for the target base was to have strong mobile (fighter/PF/ship) units committed to base defense. If the mobile units could be driven off or destroyed (and keep in mind how strong the plasma/webcaster synergy is in such battles) even a Starbase was almost helpless against a very modestly sized Romulan squadron with a single attached Tholian. (The base could use Wild Weasles, of course, but that just prolongs the agony.)
3. Mauler - The short primary range and narrow fire arc make a mauler difficult to use against a maneuvering target. The obvious solution is to trap the intended target in cast web while the mauler moves into position to teach the miscreant the error of his ways. This was also a favorite tactic during our Tholian/Romulan alliance.
4. SFG - I've never actually used this in a game but tactics similar to those for the mauler ought to work.
5. ESG - This one is a little trickier. A web and an ESG cannot exist in the same hex. Whichever was there first takes precedence. A web cast into an ESG hex simply fails to materialize. (A web-fist can be fired through an ESG just fine however. The ESG does not protect the way it does against a hellbore.) An ESG that moves into a pre-existing web hex disappears. (Only the hex(es) co-existant with or blocked by web hexes are effected. The other ESG hexes do still exist.) This means a target trapped in a web canot be hit with an ESG overrun. Instead the Lyran maneuvers to conduct the overrun the impulse after the cast web disintegrates.
6. PPD - It is difficult to use an overloaded PPD against a rapidly approaching enemy since he will reach the myopic zone before all six pulses are expended. A gunline ship might try to slow down the approaching enemy by tractoring it, but only if it has enough tractor to overcome the enemy's negative tractor. The advantages of teaming a Tholian webcaster ship with an ISC PPD ship in this situation are, I assume, obvious.
7. Andromedan Technology - A newly displaced Andromedan or newly transported satellite ship is vulnerable for a short time until its fire control comes back on-line. Use cast web to screen your Andromedan buddy just like you would use cast web to screen your uncloaking Romulan buddy.
8. The Hydrans - Don't even get me started on this one.
I appologize to Charles and all interested parties for the length of this post. But I wanted to stress how many synergies there are between webcasters and non-Tholian technology. Though the Tholians are my favorite race I cringe every time I hear proposals to give them some kind of seeking weapons. This has the strong potential to break things badly.
Charles: I approve of allowing the Tholians to be a major race in a free campaign. This can create some very interesting situations. But I recommend (based on prior experience with Tholians in campaigns) you do the following.
1. Penalize the Tholian economy in some way. Either increase the EPV of their bases or reduce their economy relative to other races. Make them a "small major race". (This is less important if the Seltorians are in the campaign or web-breaker technology is somehow made available to other races.)
2. DO NOT allow the Tholians (even as a major race) unlimitted webcaster production. It's okay to allow them to build Neo-Tholian ships if you wish, as long as the total number of webcasters the Tholians can produce is limitted.
3. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES allow the Tholians to acquire non-Tholian technology or non-Tholians to acquire Tholian technolgy. A major race Tholian (one that can devote significant resources to offensive purposes) is already very dangerous. A major race Tholian allied to another race is even worse due to the synergies involved. But at least there are coordination problems - the ally's movement will be impeded by the Tholian web and the ally can not fire his phasers through that web. A race that can combine web technology with non-Tholian technology in an integral manner has the potential to wreck your campaign.
Well, I'll confess-- in My spare time (hah. HAH!), I've been playing around with Archeo tholians as a native major race. I did up a few EY Tholian designs, with badly limited Web and P2's, as a test and they seemed to work well.
But the biggest problem for my idea (an SS submission) was that in a free campaign, or as a major race, you HAVE to assume that they might ally, and I've been trying to figure out ways to prevent that from breaking the game.
The SS submission, BTW, has the EY tholians invading, not as refugees, but as a first wave invasion-- THEN the seltorian revolt causes problems back home, cutting them off. But this setting assumes that they had impressive long range transport abilities, or that good old Star Trek standby, a wormhole, which allowed them to get here without being quite so radically advanced.
in the campaign rules I have been working on (which assume a computer to track all the detailes ) I give each planet an 'ecology' rateing (1-10) and the more the planets ecology differs from the one your race used to the smaller your colony can be (but each race has a different native ecology so there's potential for trying to share systems...) In this situation I give the tholians a native ecology of 11 so there is no planet in the galaxy that is really suited for them and only a few that they can use at all (other then in completely sealed colonies)
David:
That's pretty neat. It sounds similar to (but more detailed than) an idea I have been thinking about (but never actually played). One wrinkle in my idea involved finding a way to allow the Seltorians to participate in a free campaign. Naturally the Seltorian SC2 ships (which historically didn't show up in this galaxy) had to be allowed. But the Seltorians still have problems. The first is that their technology doesn't work well against some races (though I believe this problem is not as severe as it is sometimes made out to be). The second is that the Seltorians have no X-ships. (At least, not yet.) My idea was to compensate for this by giving them an economic advantage and the vehicle for doing so was to allow the Seltorians to treat all the different ecologies (I only envisioned three or four) as friendly. The idea behind this was that the Seltorians could breed new workers very rapidly and due to their natures didn't worry about high casualty rates except among Queens, Sages, and so on. Workers were not deliberately sacrificed to no purpose, but their deaths were regarded with a detached coldheartedness that would have been unacceptable even in the Klingon Empire (at least, if applied to ethnic Klingons). So... any other race that tries to colonize a planet with valuable mineral deposits but a hostile, dangerous environment would have to expend lots of resources to minimize the risk to the colonists. The Seltorians simply increase breeding rate of the workers by 27% to compensate for increased attrition. Thus the ammount of economic gain to the Seltorians for colonizing the planet would be greater than for any other race. I hoped that this economic advantage would adequately compensate the Seltorians for their other weaknesses. A Seltorian with a superior economic base could be bad news for the Tholians, since the Seltorian technology is specifically designed to counter Tholian technology. But there is still the factor that the Seltorians don't have X-ships and the Tholians do. I never got the chance to play this so I don't know if it all would have worked.
David-- a very, very nice idea, and a reasonable and logical strategic balance for the Tholians.
If they only have a few planets they can easily colonize, scattered over wide areas, that explains why a major race Tholian empire has a smaller economic BPV, AND is always in conflict with other races.
It would raise the interesting idea of an interpentrating alliance-- where the Tholians are allowed to colonize worlds in friendly empire's space. Could be nasty if the alliance takes a turn for the worst, though.