I asked SVC about this and he said they had thought about something along these lines. Then it started to turn into a discusion in the wrong topic, so he told me to check the F&E section and if theres nothing there then start a new thread here. So, here is my idea.

I'm not a big F&E player mostly because I spend all my StarFleet time playing SFB. However, I always thought that perfectly balanced scenarios lacked historical context. So, what I propose is this.

An F&E module that is played out in one border sector. Each player is a commander at a base. He controls one F&E mega hex. He/She must must keep logistics flowing, ships in order, make requests to Fleet command, do battle with the enemy. Battles would be fought using the F&E system or the SFB system, depending on the two players choice. To resolve disputes each player roles a D6. Higher result wins his choice to resolve the combat. There could be verious roll modifiers based on the composition of the opposing ships/fleets.

Randome events would take place. Monsters, pirats,Andros, Galactic events etc.

My thought is that one could mesh the two games this way. It could serve to generate scenarios for SFB. Or it could serve to add more detail to critical sector of F&E.

Also, it should be simpler to play but anything you learn here should be applicable to F&E, so that it could be used as an introduction to F&E.

I would want to see the F&E hexs devided into....say, six hexs across. So your map would include 18 hexs wide by 12 hexs deep plus 6x18 hexs of neutral zone. In some cases there would just be a border line between the two players.

This could also be a place where players could re-enact some of the major campains of the general war.

So, now its out there. I'll post more as I think more up.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I have some ideas for a scenario generator pencilled in, but there is no map involved at all. If you still want a map then we are looking at different things.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Ya, because I want to see some logistics come into play. Guarding routes. Using terrain in tactics. Planetary systems invovled. Even ground combat or small raids. A map with a off map area is important so it can be played in and of itself(As a mini-F&E).

Please go over your own stuff. If you want to share anything, that'd be cool.

I haven't developed anything. Mostly want to kick around the idea.

Mabye this could have some kind of Tournament function.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:54 pm: Edit

This sounds alot like OpV.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Ya, Andy Palmer said that too. I hope I'm not missing something. Then again, I hope I am. If this thing has already been developed, somebody tell me. I like to discuse that. If it hasn't then lets figure something out.

What is OpV? I'm going to hold off untill if find out about OpV.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Please define "one F&E mega hex".

I think you might have defined it as an area 3 (4?) hexes in diameter, but I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Can't find my F&E map so the only way I can think to present this is to use a standard SFB map.(Basic Set) In the upper right corner of part C is the direction indicater(A through F). The middle hex is 4002 (player A). This plus A-F is a mega-hex as defigned by most game systems.
I could have said that simpler but I want to establish the rest of the map.

Locate 4005. That is the center of the opposing player (B).3904,4003,4004, and 4104 are neutral zone hexs. In some cases the line between 4003 and 4004 would be the border line. 3902,4001 and 4102 would be player A's rear area where you would bring in from off map things from other places (supplys, replacement ships, communication etc.)

A Fed Player would bring in supplys via off map through 4001 to 4002 from Star Fleet Command( referance not the game SFC). 3902 and 4102 would be where assistance from other border bases could come in.

This way it would be possible to cut of an enemy base from support. More depth is gained by having to maintain logistics. I think if you try to simulate this level of logistics detail in F&E the game would be too cumbersome. However, I would like to see it possable through a module like this. A module that can be played in and of itself or, if you got the gumption, as a part of F&E.

Hey, I said I was going to hold of untill I found out about OpV.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Each of these Hexs are F&E sized hexs. I would like to see them further broaken down by six. Mabey 7 would be better so there would be a center hex in each F&E hex. I hope I'm not confusing everybody.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Loren, see Module P6 for more information about Operational Movement.The notes describe it as a game system between SFB and F&E. Each F&E hex is turned into a number of operational hexes, and ships would move around doing patrols, convoy raids, protecting colonies, and intercepting the enemy. Production is not listed as a factor, but generic supply counters and fuel pods seem to play an important role. Combat system may be SFB, F&E, or something other. Hope this helps.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:43 am: Edit

Yes, I look it up, but, if memory serves me right, P6 is the campain designers book so its not a developed game...
Wait....
O.K. Galactic Smorgasbord P6. Got it in my hands. P module = playtest. So the jist of the idea has been presented but not developed. I did not think it was my idea. Actualy, I knew something was there but when I asked Steve Cole about it the conversation nessesatated a new topic.

O.K., anybody interested in this proposal? I'm going to re-read P6 and continue. Shall we?

P.S. Thanks Nick.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:43 am: Edit

SVC: SPP: Is it worth continuing?

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 01:37 am: Edit

Loren, there was a discussion topic on Module V that went on for about a year or more a while back, but everyone had differing ideas on what should be covered and how. Without input from the two Steves, the discussion pretty much died.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Yeah I asked about the OpV archives (Which really is what you are talking about) because I think you might like to read them, and I think most of us dont wish to rehash it again without knowing if it will go somewhere.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Sorry I missed out. I would like to read them. My e-mail is in my profile. I would not like to rehash it either if its not going any where. However, I will hold onto a "Thread of Hope"(Oh, a pun. Bad,bad.) My hope is because Steve Cole told me to start this thread. (Admittably he's a busy man and it might of been off hand.) Personaly, I would love it to go somewere, and since it was in P6 it must have merrit. The New ADB is still a little new and mabey OpV's time will soon come.

Soooo, Instead of rehashing the rules, for now,let talk about how much we all want this. Just as a reminder.

P.S. I assume a lot of players want this because thats what it said in P6.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Shoot fire. Just read SVC's note in Proposals/New Rules/Other Proposals/New Product Ideas.

He said let it rest for now.(Sept Mabey?)

Topic is at rest. Beeeyuooop.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Joseph: Here it is.

(this is in regards to a conversation that went of topic from F&E General Discussions. Joseph is exploring ways to represent some factors of F&E in SFB such as DB and Logistics and Long Ranged movement.)

I once had trouble with this in my own mind but with a few comments from SVC it all came together. For instance I once asked SVC how SFB would represent a scenario like the Battle of Midway. Which involved hundereds of ships and air planes. His answer was like a snow ball that also answered many other questions. He said the Battle of Midway was NOT once scenario but many in paralell and sequencial order.

The Drone Bombardment is handled in two ways in SFB. One where the drones bombardment being conducted off map and the only the drones and target are involved in the scenario. THe other is where a DB ship is bombarding something off map and gets caught. This is two separate scenarios. The only alternative would be to line up about 50 maps or more.

Long Ranged movement can be handled by a Campaigns rules. Have you seen module P6 Campaign Designers Manual? It discusses such subjects. One thing that could be done is to agree to play an re-engagement scenario if one player disengages. Simply do the between scenario repairs (of sub-set of) and start a new scanario whith what is left at WS3.

One idea might be to disengage and then allow 25 turns of repair. You will exhaust you CDR and probably get your shields back up. Then re-engage. This is by mutual consent. If player B disengages the Player A gets the appropreate Victory Points but if player B makes a re-engagement challenge and is refused Player A gets only 1/2 the VP instead. The results of each engagement are cumulative so you can't just disengage willy nilly and hope for any victory because 1/2 + 1/2 equals the full victory points though the re-engagement may earn player B some to balance against it but if he were to disengage each time he makes a mistake just to start over there would be no way to win after the second time. This would certainly add a lot of time to playing out combat but would add some dimention to it and could be fun to try.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:08 pm: Edit

You can also just use the F&E rules for movement and the larger combats, and use SFB for the small combats that develop.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Ohh as a MY Gorn I'd always want to use FnE cause in FnE all Gorn ships always had ALL their refits, then about Y168 - Y178 I'd want to actually play the games as they are playable then, from Y178 ish on with the advent of spd 32 drones I'd go back to FnE factors again.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit

I haven't seen P6 and did not know what it was until you included the title, and I am assuming it is the same item still available under game handbooks. Thank you both for your replies. I now need to buy P6 and F&E 2K. Do I also need F&E fighter ops? This is a truly amazing and enjoyable set of gaming systems.

Loren awhile back you posted something about firing at ships at higher warp speeds? Have you though about adapting the non-violent combat rules for that. The effect instead of destroying the target causes it to drop to a tactical warp speed (some number below 32 depending on a damage role) so it can be reengaged in combat. It could be used for intercepts or when a ship is trying to escape. Either side could use it

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:07 am: Edit

It's been put down with extreme prejustic. Even made CL29 so as to discurage others from thinking down the same line though it presented my case somewhat simplistically.

My original thought was that a Federation DN was in a major hurry and got just a little careless zipping by a beacon on an asteriod deep inside Fed teritory. Unfortunately for the DN a small Andro ship was there landed on the Asteriod and took a shot at the DN in high warp. Hence the need for a rule specifying the results of the "Sucker Punch" (as I had named the scenario). It was explained to me that such behavior by the DN command would never ever happen as this would be a sever deriliction of duty and a total unnessasary risk of the lives of his crew. It just never would happen. So that subject is closed. But this is a very very important ruling in that it defines a lot of other things.

It defines why you can force combat with other units, especially units that are stratigically slower than you and was the central point to the tiny Tholian Pol in R8. It has little hope of winning a battle against even a frigate ( or a good PF for that matter)but it doesn't have to. It mearly maintains its proximity so that you cannot go to high warp. It pins you to tactical until help can arrive. Another form of web so to speak.