TNG never said that all of the material came from the same solar system. All they found was an Artifact. Nothing was put into the episode as to how the Dyson Sphere was constructed. Who's to say that the race/races that built the thing didn't use some sort of advanced materialization technology to build the sphere. (i.e. Food replicators, transporters, energy to matter machines, etc.) Plus, given time and certain microbes and small creepy clawlies and water, it is not that hard to make soil. Terraforming Mars for example could take anywhere from 200 to 1000 earth years. (depending on manpower, level of terraforming desired, meathod chosen to get there, genetic engineering success rate, and accident rate) So, yes a Dyson Sphere could be created, though with our current level of technology I estimate that it would take us one million plus years to comlete the Sphere, though preferably not around Sol because current science estimates that Sol will go Nova in approx. five million years.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit

So, that just means we can't build it with 21st century technology. That doesn't mean some advanced race couldn't build it.

At least, it's enough of a possiblity that most of the audience wouldn't be put off if the Enterprise found one. After all, if Kirk can find a giant microbe, Picard can find a Dyson Sphere.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:31 am: Edit

Regarding insufficient mass, considering the time it would take to build a dyson sphere you would have ample time to use neighboring star systems as fodder for a giant shreader/mass-driver. Point it where you want to build the sphere and send it on its way. So what if it takes 100 years to get there.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 05:21 am: Edit

Or, given you have replicator technology, you start the Dyson sphere as a set of huge solar collectors hooked up to replicators, making more solar collectors, replicators, and superstructure, until you have the frame of the sphere and most of the star's output being gathered by collectors, and then replicate everything you need to complete the sphere.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:54 am: Edit

>> "Class-M ring system" around a gas giant.

I don't recall this episode, but if a Class-M ring system means an inhabitable one, check out "The Integral Trees" by Niven. If it means something else, what's the problem?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Regarding insufficient mass, considering the time it would take to build a dyson sphere you would have ample time to use neighboring star systems as fodder for a giant shreader/mass-driver.

Liker perhaps, the original PlanetKiller?

Although that diced up planets and ate them, what if in its stomach there was some kind of long range transporter for processed materials?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

John K,

I've read large parts of Integral Trees. Don't remember if I've read all of it or not.

This was not that.

It was from the end of voyager's first season. They find this convienetly class-M ring system (Which naturally included gravity), so the cast got to explore a nice, icey-looking set without props dept having to build environment gear.

Mercifully, I forget now what anomaly or device Harry Kim finds and whether it drops him somewhere else in time, space or dimension, but the people there don't want to let him go... You get the picture.

It was this plus seeing Voyager deploy landing gear in the Season 2 opener that brutally crushed the last flicker of interest I had in Voyager.


John S,
Actually, I would say (for the reasons others have brought out) that a Dyson Sphere marks a high point of science usage for the Franchise. they at least are dealing with something remotely possible. You might need a webwork of force fields and tractor beams to hold it together, but that's not unreasonable.


Geoff,

No, I don't think Classic Trek's Plane Killer would have anything to do with the dyson sphere. If for no other reason that the the fact that the alien race has somehow been stupid enough to forget to turn their mass-gatherer off once they were done. IMHO, it's pretty clear the Planet Killer was a weapon designed to destroy whole planets independently and repeatedly.

If you HAVE to bring the Franchise into it (and I always prefer you didn't), I much prefer the exlanation offered by one of the novels that the Planet Killer was a weapon designed to destroy the Borg. I forget which novel. I was told about it. I didn't read it.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Isn't the Tholian's "home world" in our galaxy was a Dyson sphere?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 05:59 pm: Edit

The Tholian Home World in both Galixys is a Dyson sphere. The Home World in the Milky Way is the home world brought from the Tholians home galaxy.

So, either here or there the Tholians are at home.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit

A caveat. The Tholian Holdfast Homeworld is only a provincial capitol. Not the Tholian Wills Homeworld of the old galaxy.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit

KJ: I had not noticed that change in the Y1999 Basic Rule book as of yet. Thanks for the correction.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Makes you wonder. If a provincial capital is a Dyson sphere. Just what the heck is (Old Galaxy)Homeworld like?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 06:34 pm: Edit

How about this: did the Tholians build it or acquire it? If the latter; who did build it?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 07:00 pm: Edit

The Tholians had the resources of a galaxy to work with.

Also the Dyson sphere has been characterized as being "small." I assumed from that a shere appropriate to a small red-spectrum star.

Further, remember that Tholians require a slightly warmer temperature. Tholians might like a climate like Sol's-Venus or Mercury. They might have evolved on a Venus-like world. A dyson sphere built at an apprpriately comfortable orbit around a red star would be appropriately smaller.

The question I have is: did they bring the star that the Sphere was built around?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Perhaps the Tholians were in the habit of building Dyson spheres as provincial capitols through out their galaxy since too few planets could support their unique form of life.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Then the Holdfast primarily needs resources. It has living space to burn (so to speak).

Even a small Dyson sphere would have a diameter of a million miles or so. What's the interior surface area of that? How many millions of earths is that?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 10:59 pm: Edit

Ya, I say the track home builders are fairing pretty well!

I would imagine that the Holdfast resource needs consist primarilly of minirals, something in pleanty of supply with all the planets and stars that are in four stratigic hexes.

Thats not to say trade isn't needed. Some is but they probably can survive on little exterior help.

So, the Holdfasts primary concern is probably security.

Ya know, I seem to remember that SVC mentioned the number of SFB hexes Tholia took up. It wasn't that big. A diameter of 1 Million miles would be about four maps but I seem to remember it was more like a hand full of hexes.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Edit

That's right. I remember now. It would be appropos to circle a red or brown dwarf, then.

...so 6 hexes of sphere would be a diameter of 3, which means it would have roughly 27x the surface area of the Earth.

A diameter-5 dyson would have 125x the surface area of the earth.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 01:19 am: Edit

Either way, that's a lot of condos!

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 03:52 pm: Edit

LOL,

I never dreamed that my Dyson Sphere comment would provoke so much thought.

I've read the "The Integral Trees". That's pretty speculative science fiction.

Have any of you heard of the "space elevator"? The theory is that a synchronous satellite (i.e. space station) could have a physical elevator built down to the earth if a similar amount of mass is built in the opposite direction. The center of mass would not change. (I think Star Trek Voyager did on episode based on this.)

All I know is that Kirk's communicator is today's cell phone!

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Yeah, they had one of those in "Red Mars" (don't remember the authors name off hand). It was a massive cable leading to a sattelite, which could be traversed by a elevator to achieve a more energy efficient exit from the gravity well.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Got a new proposal.

First let me say that I still favor speed 32 for X2 ships but that the extra unit of speed should cost a lot (like five movement) and that there should be a natural ECM applied like EM (with the bennifits and penalties of EM).

I don't like any ships moving trans-32...at all.

However, I've always thought there should be some sort of way for ships to disengage temporarally but remain in the same scenario. As such, I have this proposal.
================================

X2 ships can enter disengagements speeds and quickly shut down in order to remain in a scenario. This maneuver is called Falling Back.

Proceedure: An X2 ship must meet all the guidelines for Disengagement by Acceleration. Upon so the player must announce his intention to Fall Back or to fully Disengage.

To fall back the ship, very quickly after jumping to high warp, Emergency Decelerates. The player rolls on die and multiplies the result by 5 than adds 30 to this number (1d6 x 5 + 30). The result is the number of hexes the ship is moved from the starting hex. Must be in a straight line (i.e. one of six directions, no side slips).

Conditions and restrictions:

This maneuver cannot be used if its Fall Back path direction would bring it closer (at any point) to an enemy unit. If the ship does so it is imediately considered destroyed and removed from play with no effect on any other unit.

The destination hex is the hex where the ship stops. It has just compleated an Emergency Deceleration and is under those conditions. Further, this maneuver places great stress on the ship and it must make a break down roll. This maneuver does take up a BD bonus if there is one. If the ship has an opperating and powered ASIF the break down roll does not use up the bonus point and is performed at -1. In the event of a break down follow the rules for break down as if the ship had HET'ed.

Ships cannot Fall Back further as the speed quickly becomes too great to E-Decel from.

The ship may begin moving a Speed 1 or begin tactical maneuvers per the rules following Emergency deceleration. In most cases the ship will be sitting still for the remander of the disengagement turn and can begin moving from Speed 0 or 1 the following turn.

Various actions continuing from before the Fall Back maneuver can continue, such and CDR and the arming of multi-turn weapons.

Obviously this maneuver would be an optional rule and could only have value on a open map. It might be possible on a closed map if the closed map were a multi-map scenario. Falling back out of a closed map would result in disengagement just like moving off the map any other way.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 08:05 pm: Edit

...so what happens when ship s routinely Fall Back in the face of plasma?

Suppose I am a DF ship, I get close, fire when it suits me, then Fall Back to escape reprisal?

With the distances involved, I could easily jump outside the 35 hex seeking weapon control range, immidiately shaking off all seeking weapons.

A very, very powerful dis-dev Loren.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:31 am: Edit

Well, I hadn't planned on allowing routine FB be viable but mistakely wrote in that a powered ASIF would protect and replace the Breakdown bonus. Therefore allowing routin use of the maneuver.

I thereby retract that part. Each use of a fall back maneuver requires a break down roll and uses a BD Bonus.

So, while X2 ships will likely get two BD bonuses you will have to think about if you really want to HET.

As far as escaping seeking weapons well, you must first meet the full requirements for disengagement so you are already going as fast as you can. If you've taken a lot of damage you may not be able to use the maneuver at all. Also, it really only gives you a short respit as you must remain still for the entire turn than start moving from speed 0.

Like I said it would be an optional rule. Some people might not like the game lengthening quality to the rule.

Hmmm, might should add that it cannot be used to move through web. If so the result would be total distruction in the web hex.

Also, cannot be used through asteroid hexes (though it would be unlikely anyone would meet disengagement requirements in an asteroid field!).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:37 am: Edit

Hmm, add also, seeking weapons in the path of a Fall Back Maneuver targeted on that ship imediatly strike the target (spending no further range) for double damage.

This is different than the regular disengagement rules in that a ship using those rules can turn to avoid SW's in it disengagement path but to prepare for the rapid deceleration a Falling Back ship must move in a straight line and cannot move to avoid SW's in its path.