Further, shortly after the proceedure was proven on X2 ships the proceedure was implemented on all ships (X0 and X1) with very minor improvements to the engines.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Still a ship or fleet targetted by a mass of seeing weapons can easily fall back past the 35 hex range of control.

To remind: seeking weapons require a range of 35 hexes or less:
1) from controller to seeking weapon
2) from seeking weapon to target
3) from controller to target.

I do a fleet wide fall back and just about every seeking weapon on the board goes inert.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit

I agree with John, "Fall Back" would be unbalancing for the "seeking weapons" X Ships.

Now for my X2 speed limit idea for a High Energy Burst. I'm borrowing the HEB name from a previous post.

An X Ship may set aside 10 units of warp movement once per turn for an HEB. When executed successfully, the X ship moves straight ahead at speed 64 for five impulses. Success is determined by a successful HET roll. Failure results in HET breakdown.

Restrictions are few:

Can not execute the HEB on impulse one.
Can not execute the HEB within eight impulses of a previous HEB.
Can not HET during an HEB.
Can not Emergency Decel during an HEB.
The ship must move straight during the HEB. (I.E. you are not allowd to turn the ship first and then execute the HEB).

This makes the HEB different from the Andromedan displacement device (which moves up to 12 hexes in a single impulse). The HEB would move 10 hexes over 5 impulses.

While the HEB does give an X Ship an advantage over seeking weapons it is not a major advantage. There is the possibility of failure. And the "seeking weapons" X Ships could HEB themselves. The idea (after all) is to let an X Ship temporarily exceed the speed 31 limit.

John

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I haven't yet found a way to balance for seeking weapons so "Fall Back" is on hold for now. Ah well.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

I had been thinking about a form of movement that would be faster than 32 but be so lousey to the ship performing it that it would become a pretty lousey thing to do in all but a handful of siuations.

On a floating map ( thanks to keeping records on paper ) it could be used to take a breather and it could be used to close range with the enemy quickly ( by starting at the higher form of movement ).


TRANS-STRATEGIC-WARP.
During the development of X2 vessel the control of the ship in going to strategic warp became much more accurate thanks to more powerful computer systems running the engines thus a ship could move as though it were moving at strategic warp speeds but without disengaging friom the enemy.

In order to make the Jump to trans-strategi-warp the vessel must spend 32 impulses with its sheilds dropped ( it can not even generate a single point of GSReo ).

After that time the owning player may anounce that he is making the Jump to trans-strategic warp. The player shall determine the number of movement points generated by warp power and then raise that to the power of 5/3 and then add one if impulse power was spent on movement.
Dive the speed by 32 and subtract out the whole number developed then multiply the fraction by 32, the ship shall move on each impulse the whole number developed in hexes each and every impulse plus it shall move 1 hex more per impuklse that the speed chart indicates.

Ships moving at Trans-stategic-warp shall have a higher turn mode. The turn mode addition is added to the turn mode ( of the ship at speed 31 ) to develop the turn mode of the ship at higher speeds ).
The ship moving at trans-strategic warp shall also increase the ammounbt of ECM the targets it fires on shall bve considered to have by the listed number.

speed	turn mode addition	ECM	BD Mod
32-48	+1	+3	+0
49-56	+2	+6	+1
57-64	+3	+10	+2
65-96	+ 1 per 4 hexes rounded up	+1 per four hexes rounded down	+3
97-128	+ 1 per 2 hexes rounded up	+1 per two hexes rounded up	+4
129-256	+1 per hex	+ 1 per hex	+5
257+ +2 per hex	+1 per hex	+6

In order to drop out of strategic war a ship must reduce to a normal speeds by moving at the normal speed for a period of 32 impulse.

If a ship raises it's shileds whilst moving at trans-strategic-warp it shall imediately drop to the slower speed regiem and must roll against break down ( as though it performed a Het ) with the modifier developed by the speed it was moving at ( and roll against tumbling using a modifer that is double the break down modifier ).
If a ship raises shields during the 32 impulse after it dropped to regular movement it shall roll against breakdown ( using the speed modifier as though it's current warp power was plugged into the trans-strategic warp calculation ) although the a modifier to reduce the strength of the modifier ( although it will never cause the break down roll to be less likely than the standard breakdown roll for that ship ) of -1 per full 8 impulse spent at the non-strategic warp speed shall apply.

Ship running an ASIF at Low or Full power shall calculate their speeds as to the power of 4/3.

Ships may perform mid turn speed changes and the WARP POWER movement points generated before they are plugged into the Trans-strategic-Warp multiplier shall be used for the nor less than half no more than double penalties.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 09:19 pm: Edit

In this way you could use the system to close with a target from long range and you could use it to pull away from the enemy in order to make repairs and reload your SPs, but you wouldn't use it to outrun a plasma or drone because the 32 impulse you must spend at regular speeds with not a single shield box, cause your ship to be ripped to bits by phaser fire.
Since the Kzintis have some good long range fire power ( Ph-1s and Disruptors ) and the Gorns have some good long range firepower ( lots of Ph-1s ) and the Roms ( well you need to get close to them to get past their cloak so you'll be in their Ph-1 range ).

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:07 am: Edit

Guys if you boost X ship speeds by anything over 32 then GW seeking weapons are completely useless, Plasma particularly. A SVC no no. It took along time to get the Sabot implemented to deal with high late GW speeds. This is even worse.

If X2 Seeking weapons can move fast enough to handle the trans 32 speeds then the X2 weapons will simply mureder an equal GW value of seeking ships. Another SVC no no.

While a number of the ideas are entertaining and thought provoking, they would simply be to devastating. About as bad as a Y fleet engaging a CX. Talk about a wipeout.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Agreed. I think this is in solid "don't think so" territory.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:13 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Guys if you boost X ship speeds by anything over 32 then GW seeking weapons are completely useless, Plasma particularly. A SVC no no. It took along time to get the Sabot implemented to deal with high late GW speeds. This is even worse.

---

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:53 am: Edit

Repat after me; "31 is the top tactical speed in the SFU, beyond which ships enter high (strategic) warp'.

I knew you could.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:31 am: Edit

Why would I repatriate after you!?!...I've got no idea what I might step in.

When the poll was take the 7 people who voted either 33+ or 32 kinda beat the 4 people who voted for 31.
32 will probably be the top speed for X2 ships ( and (that'll probably allow warp TAC & HET on impulse 1 as a result )!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

Here is a closer look at the speed 32 rule I proposed before.

For the cost of moving speed 31 plus 5 warp an X2 ship can travel at speed 32 (Spd32). The ship MUST be moving at least half this speed (i.e. 16) for eight impulses prior to jumping to speed 32.

While traveling at speed 32 a ship comes under all the bennifits and restrictions of EM except as noted here.

A Spd32 ship cannot turn nor does it accumulate movement towards satisfying turn mode. It can side slip.

A Spd32 unit cannot HET or perform EM.
A Spd32 unit cannot launch seeking weapons (this is normal under EM but worth mentioning here).

Spd32 travel must be plotted during EA. While X2 ships could have the reserve power for such it takes time to calculate the dangerous maneuver.

Spd32 can only be acheived by paying the extra energy for the extra hex of movement even if that extra movement is not realised (which would only be on impulse one). So, if you move at Spd32 for eight impulses (at any point in the turn) or 32 impulses the cost is your total hexes moved PLUS 5.

============

I would point out that this might appear to be a cheep EM but the reduced cost is paid for by restricted movement.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

...and if I'm running from a pack of GW-tech drones, I probably don't care about the movement restrictions.

They'll never catch me. The GW-tech ships will never catch me. (assuming I don't run out of scenario map) and I shoot them down and recharge my heavy weapons at my leisure.

My personal opinion is "just say no to starship speeds over 31."

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:32 pm: Edit

John, think about it. Shure, you could out run the drones but you wouldn't be fighting. GW could be tossing T-Bombs in your way or launching drones from in front of you. I had thought about limiting Spd32 to 8 impulses but realised there was no need. Remember, it MUST be plotted during EA. X1 and X2 will typically out run drones as they are usually launched from further than three hexes and those ships can routinely move 31. After three turns they burn out just before striking.

If you intend to run from GW drones you don't need Spd32 to do it. But if you are, the enemy is going to pick away at your rear shield for a solid three turns.

Frankly, as written it wouldn't be too unbalancing to go to Spd36 (but I don't like that really. Lets keep ships on the impulse chart proper).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

T-bombs: unlikely if I'm turning away from seeking weapons.

Any ship speed increase above 31 negatively impacts plasma. Since a 31-32 jump denies the plasma-chucker that assurred 1-hex close on IMP 1 the following turn, the jump from 31-32 is not trivial.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:33 pm: Edit

All plasma will be sabot capable by then.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Of course it's not trival. If it was there would be no point to making a rule for it.

Once again I come back to cloak. The very same arguement could be made about cloaking. I can have 12 drones on my WE and cloak and most likely they will all go away. Plus I'm near invulnerable to all other fire. Something a Spd32 ship doesn't gain.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Tos,

The sabot balanced GW's higher average combat speed. We up the combat speed more, we need to pile more onto the plasma.

Perhaps a zero-additional-energy sabot would be enough balance for plasma.

We've talked about the sabot being standard equipment and implied that we might zero out its cost, but we hevane't set that in stone.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:53 pm: Edit

X2 is going to have some straight up advantages over other eras other than weapons and power. X1 has a mess of them, that's why X1 ships cost so much.

Some X2 stuff can be made up for purely by BPV. I was tempted to say a Spd32 unit would be no harder to hit and that the ECM from it would applie only to the Spd32 ship. But I felt not every advantage needs to be hammered back down with a big disadvantage. Not being able to turn is pretty limiting and travel not contributing to turn mode is prety big too. Any more and whats the point?

So, whats the point of Spd32? Well, there is so little room for maneuver advantages to give to X2 and I think X2 should get at least a little something. Another would be to give better turn modes to each class but that just doesn't seem right. I guess a Fed XCC with a Turn Mode of C would be to bad. Though, that would put a Klingon XBC at TM A. (or wait, a C7 has TM C so mabey just stay at the same as the D7: TM B.)

Hmmm, so with a better average Turn Mode for the ships, X2 movement presidence could be the same as X1. That would be a pretty hefty advantage but would imbalance anything specifically and would require no rules additions. Might even add to the fun of playing them.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Loren,

I'm wary of simply throwing BPV at a problem.

X2 can be given advantages that counterbalance going speed 32 or better. GW-tech can't. My argument isn't X2 vs. X2, it's X2 vs. GW.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Count me as one of those who would like X2 ships to stay at <=31.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 07:40 pm: Edit

John, I realize that. If it were strickly X2 vs. X2 then BPV wouldn't be an issue since every one would have it.

I understand you being wary of that but to some degree, BPV is the only thing. Look at all the advantages (other than weapons and power) X1 gets over GW with no counter balance but BPV. SUch as movement presidence. BPV is the only balancing factor. There is no down side to always moving last.

My Spd32 proposal does have a few down sides plus should have some BPV cost. However, let me state for the record, I am faced with wanting to see something new for X2 but not so great as to leave the confines of the Impulse chart. Speed 32 isn't going to go all that farther than speed 31 for escaping drones. The only time you actually gain a hex of movement is Impulse 1. If a Fast drone is chacing you and you are moving 31 AND it is more that three hexes away, it will never catch you as it will die first (unless extended range). But we are talking three turns of speed 31, here. Additionally, if the drones are launched at say R1 the use of Spd32 is unavailable unless the ship had already been going Speed 16. If thats the case the the enemy gains certain advantages. One, you don't go speed 32 and he hits you on Impulse 1 OR you do and you are spending an enormous amount of power to do so. You are likely NOT going to get a good strike on him and he can fire on you (and with a little ECCM can do so unimpeded).

To be honest, it's not that it's too affectual but that it might not be affectual enough. THere might not be enough tactical situations where it would actually be more useful than the cost.


John, that's why I started considering the Improved Turn Modes for X2 for the reasons previously posted.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Loren,

X1 was notoriously tricky to balance, too. The improved capabilities creating or advancing the RPS issues that already existed in SFB.

BPV breaks down as a measure of capability when the tech gulf gets too great. Remember my "CX fighting 3 or 4 YCA's" argument.

Things that change the parameters of combat, such as PA panels, are the things that can most create RPS effects. Giving a starship speed-32 or better does change the paramets of combat.

You're right. Speed-31, taken over an entire turn, isn't much different than speed-32 for outrunning seeking weapons. But for weapons launched late in the turn, there is a definite combat difference. Your drone will close by a hex in the near future come hades or high water, whereas at speed 32 there is no point where the drones will ever close, barring a fixed map. And we don't want drone-chucking GW's to be dependant on a fixed map to be able to engage X2 on a level playing field.


I would favor improved turn modes or dust off a concept that's in the notes soemwhere: "powered turns" where a ship expends reserve warp and receives hexes toward its turn mode.

Heck, with something like that, X2 could have *worse* turn modes and still overall maneuver better.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:10 pm: Edit

X2 at 31 is reasonable but X2 at 32 is better. It give X2 that little bit of extra omph it will need to get movement preference over X1 ships without adding new rules and gains the ability to HET/move on impulse 1 which is significant but not hugely unbalancing.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Tos,

I disagree.

I won't say it IS unbalancing but against GW-tech it does indeed have the *potential* to be unbalancing.