I opened this topic to start rounding up ideas for updating the Campaign Designers Handbook. A few days ago I asked SVC if they had any updates for CDH and he said

"By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 07:38 pm: Edit
Could be a nice project for somebody, but nobody here knows how that CDH stuff works.”

So I thought we might see if we could help.

In my opinion we should start with the Tech Blocks and bring them up to date with both Modules Y and J2. What is every one else’s idea?

ADM

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Off hand IIRC the Cloaking tech blocks are what led to the Masking and Veiling device. If I can dig up the CDH I'll comment more specifically.

The megafighter should belong around the type III fighters. Maybe before possibly after.

Remote Control should be split off from the basic fighter. Probably going through range steps. (To whatever the J2 range is.)

Heavy/Light Photons should simply be a split from the regular photon with the various packages feeding to it.

SABOT/ECM/Carronade should be in the same block area as Shotguns EPTs etc.

Ship blocks will be the hardest to balance. Division and patrol ships and Scout Carriers have to fit inside the proper progression.

Most of the other ships can be shoe horned in. But the new CV types will be the hardest.

Like I said in the Hey Steve topic. I have a lot of the material done on handdrawn sheets for a campaign that never started. But anything after R6 isn't included since that was the last stab I made at it.

A possible help is to have a Heavy Variants block to cover CCH DNH etc. Make it expensive but have it off to the side so it can be kept out of the way. And the tree wouldnt have to get even more cluttered.

Theres some other stuff but thats what i came up with off the top of my head.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

Ship Tech:
1. DN Varients Block to allow for DNL's, etc. Cost 3
2. Fast Ship Tech - Links from CC's and Varients. Cost 3
3. Scouts should only require 4 ECM/ECCM rather than 6 (Vulcans had scouts that could only generate 4 EW)
4. Heavy Scouts should require 6 ECM/ECCM.

Static Defense Blocks:
1. Medium Bomber Bases, needed but where? Cost 2
2. Heavy Bomber Bases, needed but where? Cost 1

Phaser Tech Blocks:
1. Should start with Lasers now (from Y1)
2. Phaser-2 & Phaser-3 from Lasers. Cost 2

Fighter Tech Blocks:
1. Medium Bombers from Class 2 Fighters. Cost 4
2. Advanced Bombers from Medium Bombers & Class 3 Fighters. Cost 4
3. Heavy Bombers from Advanced Bombers and Heavy Fighters. Cost 4
4. Drogues from Class 3 Fighters and PF Mech Links. Cost 3 with note that Decoy req Wild Weasel, Seeking Weapon req Scatter Pack, and Sensor Drogue req. Offencive EW.
5. Mega Fighters from Heavy Fighters and Interceptors. Cost 5
6. Advanced Shuttles from Heavy Fighters. Cost 4 with note that Advanced shuttles require the Standard shuttles for the same type.

More to come...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Medium Bombers from Class 1 Fighter, not class 2 - check out the YIS dates.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Trouble is the Federation B52 comes out before Type II fighters.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

The DNL should follow from the Hot warp tech block. Which created the CF-CW-DW-DNL.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Kenneth Jones - I'm not sure the DNL should follow from that. Unlike the CF, the DNL reduces mass rather than increases engine power. At the tactical level a DNL's engines produce the same power as a standard DN's. Since there are many SFB ships that have the same 36-1 ratio of warp engine power to MC, but are not Fast ships, that power ratio is obviously not enough by itself. The DNL may indeed have different engines than the standard DN, but the change may have more to do with operating the engines at maximum rated power over longer periods of time, and that might be a completely different tech block than Hot Warp. Does anyone know for ceratin whether DNL engines are the same as DN engines or not? I can't recall a definite answer one way or the other.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Kenneth. Some DNLs are available prior to CWs and DWs. I actually see the CF-DNL as a separate tech tree (Fast Ships) while DWs and CWs are the "War Design" tech tree; Hot Warp isn't their main attribute - their more rapid build cycles and reduces long term/range "robustness" are more primary attributes, IMO.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Sabot Plasma's should not be the same tech block as Shotguns.

Sabot's come out Y180

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Yes Historically Sabots do come out later. But they probably should sit in the same general space in the tech tree. (Mind you this is all from memory.)

As to DNLs. Some did come out before CWs. So have the DNL and CW BOTH devolve from the CF, that should take care of any trouble along those lines.

Alan: DNL engines are the same as DN engines. The weight (MC) of the ship is reduced.

(Like I said earlier this is all from what i recall. I dont have any idea where my CDH even is right now. As to general timeline we need to bow somewhat to it. But if the player wanted he could build everything up and just use FFs for the game.)

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

All according to F&E SITs...
Fed CF - Y167
Fed DNL - Y167
Fed CW - Y169
Fed DW - Y175

Lyran CF - Y165
Lyran DNL - Y168
Lyran CW - Y164
Lyran DW - Y164

Klingon CF - Y162
Klingon DNL - Y167
Klingon CW - Y166
Klingon DW - Y175 (F5W)

Kzinti CF - Y165
Kzinti DNL - Y167
Kzinti CW - Y169
Kzinti DW - Y174

Hydran CF - Y167
Hydran DNL - Y168
Hydran CW - Y167/168 (HR/TR)
Hydran DW - Y173

Romulan CF - Y172
Romulan DNL - Y172
Romulan CW - Y167
Romulan DW - ???

Gorn CF - Y168
Gorn DNL - Y172
Gorn CW - Y169
Gorn DW - Y168

Based on those numbers, it looks like CWs are sometimes earlier, sometimes later than CFs - so they can't really be dependencies for each other.

Also, DWs shouldn't really be in the same category as CWs - in many cases they are seperated by several years.

DNLs look to be at the same time or after CFs. So, CF could be a required tech for DNLs (along with "modern DN" as all but the Hydran LGE come at the same time or later than the DN for that race).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:54 pm: Edit

All the discussion so far has been on updating tech blocks. If an updated CDH consists solely of this, I don't believe it will be worth the trouble. Although I've been involved with several SFB campaigns, I've never used the CDH because it never seemed to address (or addressed insufficiently) a lot of important issues that we had to develop house rules for. An example would be an "operational level" interface that handles transition from movement on the strategic map to the tactical game. Use of hidden movement/limited information would be another example. In our campaigns we have tried various schemes for handling these things. Some worked better than others. The CDH would not have to designate one specific way for doing these things. It would be more useful to introduce several possible rules with a good discussion of the pros and cons of each, along with (playtested) suggestions for which will work best in which kinds of campaign. This would allow the campaign designer several options to choose from based on his vision of how the campaign should run. Obviously, this would require a lot more work than simply updating tech blocks, but I believe it would result in a much more useful product.

I want to stress that I'm not knocking the efforts to "get the tech blocks right". I just don't believe those efforts are sufficient for a truly useful CDH, necessary but not sufficient.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Just curious, has anybody played a campaign using the tech blocks? They look neat, but I haven't used them.

I think that in order for the CDH to be worth reprinting, it should include a few campaign systems that are ready to go. Although I've heard it said that F&E can be used as a campaign system, even that would require a fair amount of house rules to actually use.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Seth, Yes we have, frankly our group liked parts of the book and designed the rest of our campaigns ourselves.
The nice thing about the Tech Block system is the fact that it takes care of one of the more tedious parts of campaign design.

ADM

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Needed for Y1, in my opinion. Not all of these would necessarily need to be used, but I think they provide a good outline.

Movement
Add a new list of boxes between forward movement and X-Tech blocks

Start with NTW; Speed 16, cost 2; Speed 24, cost 2; Speed 30, cost 3; Hot Warp, cost 4.
Hot Warp is needed before you can develop DW, CW, CF, and DNL.
Midturn Speed Changes, Split Midturn Speed Change block in half, 4 changes cost 2;
Standard Midturn Changes, cost 3.

Electronic Warfare
Add new Seeking Weapons line,
Base 3 SW, Range 25,
Split,
One track to range 35, cost 2.
Second Track, Control 6SW, cost 3; Control 12 SW, Cost 4

Tractor
Start Range 0, Dead astern, sublight, non tactical; R1, Dead astern, Warp capable, non tactical, cost 1; R 1,
360 degrees, tactical, 2; R 2, cost 1; R 3, cost 1.

Transporters
None at start, Range 1, cost 1; R2, cost 1; R3, cost 1; R4, cost 1; R5 cost 1.

Cloaks
Perhaps we need to add a progression to reflect the Veil/Mask?

Mines
At start radius 0 detection. Add new row after Automatic controls, Detection Radius 1, cost 2.

Phasers
Start with Warp Tuned Lazers, Ph-2+Ph-3 block, cost 3.

Drones
At start warhead reduced to 6 points; Between Type 1 and Double Warhead, add Standard Warhead, cost 1.
I am of the opinion that we can assume Andorian Drones are a special version of Type 1 and can be quietly ignored.

Atomic Missiles, I would assume every one starts with these and drops them after they start on their Heavy
weapon blocks. If we do this we will need to add costs to all of the heavy weapon starting blocks.

Fusion
Start with Nova Cannon, insert Fusion Block, cost1; between normal cooling, and split paths after Fusion
Block.

The Disruptor Cannon, Quantum Cannon/Torpedo, Hell Nipper, and Death Bolt Tech trees will need to be created, until we see what they gain in Middle Years, General War, X-Tech periods I would be hesitant to include these. Obviously the Disruptor Cannon would be the easiest, since it will probably mirror the Disruptor Bolt progression, but we would need to no definitively if they can be overloaded.

ADM

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:11 pm: Edit

R7/R10 are much simpiler in that you only need to allow for DNL, Plasma Sabot, ECP, and to keep plasma together Pl-K.

Insert DNL block between DN and BCH, cost 2.

Add ECP to minor Plasma enhancements, Cost 3, prerequisite ECM 4.

Plasma Sabot to major enhancements, cost 10.

Insert Plasma-K after Plasma-D on seperate line, requires Self Guiding, First block, Warp Seeking, cost 2; Plasma-K, cost 2.

Module J will take longer to post.

ADM

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Needed for Module J2, I included Plasma-K, in my R7, R10 description to streamline plasma changes.

Bombers
New Tech Block line after Fighter box, Base Bomber, cost 2; 2nd Generation Bombers, cost 3; 3rd
Generation Bombers, cost 5, 4th Generation Bombers, cost 5. For the Federation and Gorn to use their Bombays they must have bought up to the F-111 block.
Add new Tech Block after Heavy Fighters for Fast Heavy Fighters, cost 5.
Add new tech Block after MRS Shuttles for Advanced Shuttles, cost 1.
Add new Block between Class II Fighters and X-Shuttles, Remote Control, cost 5.
Add new Block, on sidetrack, after Heavy Fighters for Mega-Fighters, cost 10.
Add new Line of Blocks off of Admin Shuttles, for Yatch, cost 2, Large Yatch, cost 2.

Drones
Add on Sideline H-Drone block after Double Warhead, Cost 10.

Drogue
New Tech Tree
Base Drogue, cost 2; Each separate line.
Seeking Weapon Drogue, cost 2, Requires Scatter Pack.
Phaser Drogue, cost 2; -> Ph-G Drouge, cost 2, Hydran only, Requires Ph-G. Alright two in this Line.
Decoy Drogue, cost 2, Requires WW.
Sensor Drogue, cost 4, Requires ECM 2, ECCM 2.
Heavy Weapon Drogues,
Plasma, Cost 4, No requirements.
Drone, cost 4, Requires Type H Drone.

This is my basic outline, any other ideas?

ADM

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

As R7, Omega1, Y1, Omega 2 to 4, E2, J2 and R10 all came out after CDH you will need to update all of these products.

I would like to see some rules for doing long range detections. We have local campaign rules for detecting targets out to 6 F&E hexes. The rules also have rules for false targets to be detected. As all these rolls were secret you did not know if the sensor reading was false or true. As a result you could wait to get 2 or more detections.

This would also open rules up for long range sensor units.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Ken Said,
"As R7, Omega1, Y1, Omega 2 to 4, E2, J2 and R10 all came out after CDH you will need to update all of these products."

This is the sort of thing we are trying to figure out here.

Ken also Said,
"I would like to see some rules for doing long range detections. We have local campaign rules for detecting targets out to 6 F&E hexes. The rules also have rules for false targets to be detected. As all these rolls were secret you did not know if the sensor reading was false or true. As a result you could wait to get 2 or more detections."

This sounds like a good idea, why don't you write up an outline?

ADM

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

ADM,
HW Drogues should require the Seeking Weapon Drogue and the appropriate technology.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Ken H., Good point! I can't believe I missed that, Thanks!

ADM

By Dave Lebert (Waylander) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:17 am: Edit

An updated CDH should include at least 1 sample campaign. I was really disappointed that such as thing wasn't included in the first one. In fact what I would prefer would be 2 samples. 1 with tech blocks and 1 without.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:30 am: Edit

I started to create a spreadsheet with the tech blocks in them so when modifcations are suggested I can see how it will look. The Static Defense Tech Block shows the X-bases require BATs, but the description states you must also research SB's. Is the diagram incorrect?

Also, is there an errata for the CDH?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:11 am: Edit

Here is the rules we used. There were false reading rolls, but we opted for a different approach where the player could purchase "false fleets" or as we called them E-fleets (Electronic Fleets).

(D17.41) Strategic Levels of Information: With the advent of fast drones, long range attacks happen at ranges of 3,200 hexes. This requires sensors to be able to identify friend from foe at eh S5 level of tactical intelligence.
(D17.411) Winning or losing a campaign is based on knowing how strong and the location of enemy fleets. Having strategic information is crucial for campaigns. (See also G24.29 Scout Functions).

(D17.42) Ranges for Strategic Information: The S5 level is listed in D17.4, for other ranges use the following to determine the distance for each level of strategic information. Note: All ranges for levels S4 to S0 are in parsecs.
(D17.421) For levels S4 to S0 multiply the S5 Level by the following:

Level Multiplier
S4 1.75
S3 3.50
S2 5.25
S1 7.00
S0 8.75

(D17.422) Level S0: Is used for detecting explosions, it is listed on the table to allow crew quality and ECM shifts.
(D17.423) F&E Hex Range: To determine the number of F&E hexes divide each levels range by 500.

(D17.43) Target Detection: For each target / fleet roll once per strategic turn to determine if the fleet is detected. See Table D17.441 for die rolls.

Table D17.431: Target Detection Changes

Strategic Detection
Level Chance
S5 6 – 6
S4 5 – 6
S3 4 – 6
S2 3 – 6
S1 2 – 6
S0 1 – 6

(D17.432) Real Targets: For Level S0, the chance is 1 in 6 and for each increase in level the change of detection improves by one. (i.e. S1 2 in 6, S2 3 in 6, etc.). Crew quality and ECM can shift this see (D17) Tactical Intelligence.
(D17.4321) If a fleet is detected, roll one die for each ship. If the die roll is equal to or less than the chance of detection (D17.441), information appropriate to the level is given.

(D17.44) Target Location: The location of the unit is know within 2% of the actual range for each known target. At the S5 level all targets are known within 5 hexes, per (D17.4).

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Errata, Yes it is in Cap Log 18.

ADM

P.S. I will read your 2nd post later, My wife and I are going out for the day.