Well, the difference in the Orions could be due to the modular option mounts and any extra hardware that it takes to make them work as modular systems.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Modified Munchkin system - takes some bookkeeping, but what the heck.

You can put as many weapons on your ship as you want, but each time you fire one you increase the current stress level on your ship by some amount (see Stress Level Annex). The added stress lasts for some period of time, possibly varying w/ weapon type (see Stress Level Annex). If you exceed the Max Stress Level for your ship (you know were to look to find that info), then roll for shock.

Basis: the current system for shock seems to imply that a ship can dissipate some amount of shock (that from normal weapons fire) but beyond a certain level can't dissipate it fast enough and destructive vibrations set in. This codifies the vibration buildup.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:48 pm: Edit

No, no, no. No munchkins. This topic is to discuss the posted rules, not propose crazy stuff.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:17 pm: Edit

One way to avoid "munchkins" is to make a shock value system and to not let units go over the values. For example: If a CA has a shock value of 20, then its heavy weapons can not exceed this value (each one having a shock number). As each heavy weapon has a shock value, it does not matter which ones you add together, they all add up. In my system (a link is on the shipcon thread) a plasma R has a shock of 10 and photons a shock of 4 each, just examples. This really seems to limit "beast" ships, at least as far as heavy weapons go. We also toyed around with actual shock rules on overgunned units, and it was O.K., but complicated, and the units created within the given shock values seemed better balanced and were more fun to play, or play against. A simplified version of this might be useful for the ship modification rules to help prevent "crazy stuff".

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:24 pm: Edit

You want munchkin? Go to the store and "munchkin" on Blueberry Mini-Muffins or Coffee Cakes.

I have yet to meet someone who brings a "munchkin" item to a game session that I can't defeat before the game even starts.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Eric: Very true, it is not fun to play a game of SFB if it is unfair to begin with. I feel that the vast majority of players would not "munchkinize" their units, but would use these sort of rules to "personlize" their ships or to make a special unit for a given situation. I would also assume ridiculous units would be nixed out of hand.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Just posted the revised draft. It's dated tomorrow.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Actually Hellbores can have greater than 120° arc. The Paladin has FA+L/FA+R for its HB.

D5-Hydran with 180° Hellbores.

Ha, Ha, Ha.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:47 pm: Edit

BAD SCOTT!! BAD!!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Not under S7 they can't. The ships aren't designed to deal with hellbores anyway, and the arcs are limited to avoid "accidental incidents".

By Douglas E Lampert (Lampert) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 07:02 pm: Edit

I think I see a bunch of all Ph and Drone armed ships coming soon, who needs Disr, Photons, or ESG (the Tholians keep their Webcasters but lose the snares in all likelyhood). Not to mention Hydrans with all the fusion beams replace by Ph-G.

Are the Tholians able to ignore the no more than half Photon armed ships rule? Either way I would mention this in the final rule.

If I replace a two space weapon with a one space weapon can I use the extra space for some nonweapon system in the historical rules?

Rule S7.221 talks about replacing a two space weapon with two one space weapons right after it says you cannot do this.

Can I replace a one space weapon with two 1/2 space weapons? I would assume not.

I would add a flat 1BPV/Box changed surcharge for the refit to all modified ships BPV.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 07:25 pm: Edit

On another thread Chad brought up something thats "Interesting". Replace as many boxes as you can with transporters. Stock up on BPs. Bust a shield and send the marines over.

Placing a blanket "Cannot increase the total number of any type of system by more than 50%" may be useful. I'd also toss in a rider that you can always add two of any type box to a SC 3 ship and 4 to a SC 2 or larger ship.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 08:53 pm: Edit

The boarding party thing is easy enough to stop, just pile marines on your ship to defend, or limit the amount of extra boarding parties to 10 (like annex 6 states) and then you would end up with pretty even fights, although if you lose the opponents ship would probably have more firepower as your design is optimized for transporters, then you would die, assuming you were not vaporized on the way in.

The main point here is that although (even with the non-historical rules)these are relatively minor changes someone will probably find a way to "break" the system, in which case it would be up to the opponent to say the unit is fair or not. I would really hope ANY SFB game is done for the fun or both sides in any event, not to "munchkinize" the system.

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Will wepons from C4, Jindarians, Vudar, Carnivons, Paravians and Megaphasers be covered? Also Omega and Megellanic.

By Dwight Lillibridge (Nostromo) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 09:16 pm: Edit

SVC any chance there is a way to get a copy of previous SFT construction and fighter stuff?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:20 pm: Edit

I'm sure the races have energy weapons because they cost no money to fire (or very little). Drones are very expensive. Think about it, one drone costs a little less than 1% of a ship. You could live a life time on that kind of credits. How many times have you poped out 24 to 48 drones in one game (a few minuts real time). I say this because a few posts up Lampert said "I think I see a bunch of all PH and drone armed ships comming." In the realm to toatl fanticy ya, but the SFB history (don't worry, I know its not real too) is the ground for even the craziest ideas. I always ask my self "How would this fit into the historical game." A crazy ship isn't crazy is a galixy of crazy ships. I think its safe to say the average SFB'er isn't all that crazy.

P.S. I'll bet I know whats commin'... Duck, dodge!

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:34 pm: Edit

I don't think there will be a bunch of phaser/drone ships coming, but I do bet they end up awfully similar to...
- 10 phaser 1's (most efficient weapon in the game almost...)
- 2-4 phaser g's (see point 1 above)
- 1 drone rack (got to have that ECM drone)
- ADDs (if ph-g not available)
- a Web caster or 2 (if you want to get really wonky)

not much in the way of supplies needed, all weapons have capicators (and hold for free), enough flexibility to take on any opponent (speed hurts seeking weapon races, WC kills plasmas, ph-g kills drones, ph-1 kills other ship).

By scott doty (Kurst) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:18 am: Edit

Actually the nicest weapon in the game are medium or heavy warp assisted railguns, for the power/dmg output they are wondeful weapons, their defensive mode it pretty nice too! They are so good in fact that we limited how many can be allowed in one arc SEVERLY in our games.
Lots of P-1's are quite nice, but not perfect, especially when a bunch of overload photons hit.
On open maps the phaser boats are not as good as other units, but on closed maps they could be really annoying.
The ECM drone is a pain in just about any situation.
Try the phaser boats against the Andros, if you enjoy losing.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 01:11 am: Edit

Dwight: I am not sure what rules you want but I am sure I don't have them.

Petrick says I have to work on more immediate projects (this one won't make CL24, and CL25 is not a promise) so I'll let questions accumulate for a few days before dealing with them.

By Dwight Lillibridge (Nostromo) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 08:33 am: Edit

SFT 1 and 4 with the ship construction stuff and the one of the later issues with the fighter stuff in it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 11:45 am: Edit

Dwight: I don't have copies of most SFTs. Or rather, cannot find them. There are about 30 boxes of unsorted papers, unread submissions, unanswered mail, misc notes on misc things, and so forth (3/4 of each box is just junk that needs to go into the trash) out in the warehouse. The SFTs are out there, a couple in this box, one in that one. No real way to find them without going through every box. In theory we're supposed to go through a box every saturday but the last time we did (in November) it took us about five hours so sort the paper one sheet at a time. So I cannot help you now. Maybe someday we'll sort the boxes and find stuff, but it won't be before next fall, and even then could take a year or two.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 11:59 am: Edit

Just once I'd like to see a Lyran ship replace those disruptors with hellbores . . .
Uh oh . . . drones coming in. Put up ESG
Now he's a range 8, fire HBs 1,2,3 and 4 Now
WHY IS THE BRIDGE ON FIRE????

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Adding a few boxes would be nice, even under the historical rule, but weapon additions should be limited by shock as have been suggested.
If I want a plasma R on my Firehawk, why not?
After all, we put one on the Killerhawk.
It would cost more to maintain the ship of course, and the rule need to give advice on how to handle that in campigns too.

I like this rule a lot, since it allows personalised ship, and have faith in the Steves ability to prevent munchinism.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Hm. How do we avoid having EVERY ship modified (under the historical rule)? Maybe only by allowing the Admirals ship, and ship with legendary officers, to modify their ships?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:25 pm: Edit

The problem with phaser boats is that they just don't take damage well. You lose phasers quickly.

SVC: Please add rail guns to the list of "forbidden" weapons. Swapping out the four disruptors on a D5 for four MRG would be just *sick*.