agreed

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Agreed on both points, but I think every one already knew that I would.

Regarding point 1: I would say that they wouldn't be pressed to design ships to beat the others. After the Andro war they would have given up on the "pacify the Galaxy" idea and would turn to a more defense lined fleet. I see their fleet matching the others but designed to hold space rether than conquer it. The Echelon might be reversed to a retrograde Echelon tactic. This would be pretty effective in holding space. A slow retrograde would be hard to beat against the ISC. PPD's would become more numerous I think. In a full XCC Echelon of a XCC, 2 x XCL, 3 x XDD I could see there being six to eight PPDs (2 to 4 on the XCC + (2+2)).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Loren,

I tend to agree. Let the BPV's fall where the tech takes them. If the ISC are better, thry're better. Don't set a separate bar for the ISC just 'cause.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Before Y120 most EY cruisers are in the 70-80 range, while the YDNs are in the 100-110 range. Then, in Y120, a new tech level cruiser is built that completely blows away the competition.

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Quote:

Best stick with the Y205 stuff and get it off the ground. If it needs upgrading after the Xorks come out, then Module X2R can fill that role. Trying to worry about it now is whistling in the dark.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

The X0 MC=1 Fed CA started at 125 and maxed out pre-drone speeds at BCJ 197. That's a 58% increase. The spread for the Roms is 100-224 BPV (discounting pre-warp ships).

If you want a Xork era BCH(X2) to max out at 400 BPV then keeping the Fed ratio would result in a 250 BPV CA(X2). With that big of a spread everyone can find the ship they want.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:43 am: Edit

I've said it before. But I'll say it again. 2X should out BPV the 1X Ship's of the Race they are from on a class by class basis.

At a rough increase of 33% over 1X a 2X Fed CA would be 299. Rounded to 300.

Many other races have 1X Ships that are nearly that high. Certainly they weigh in near the 10% margin.

I had a 33% increase in mind when I designed the 2X Romulans. But I made the BPV a bit high to accomodate ability growth.

The ISC CCX is 315 IIRC. That means it should be a good bench mark for a duel against a fed XCC. (Except that ISC don't duel as well as their BPV indicates IMO.)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit

"on a class by class basis"

If we consider a CM(X2) to be the class equivilent of a CLX(X1) then a 33% increase is about 250 BPV.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:56 pm: Edit

I see no reason to set anything more than guidelines.

We know how to derive a CL/CM from a CA.

We do that and figure its BPV.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 10:27 am: Edit

I agree with the last three posts.

We are only looking at guidelines right now. There's only been one printed playtest report in the whole several months we've debated this.

And as a guideline, 300-350 is a good goal for the Y205 MC1 X2 cruiser.

As a hard rule, an X2 ship must be a higher BPV than an X1 ship of a neighboring race and the same move cost.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Carried over from the "X2 Photons" thread:

Alan Trevor - Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 01:46 PM
"The point of this rant is that if an X2 cruiser costs 300-325 BPV, it is much closer in real combat power to a DNH than to a true BB. An X2 cruiser that could fight a BB on even terms (even without the BB's fighters/PFs) needs to cost more like 375-400 BPV. Otherwise the BPV system is broken between X2 and GW."

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 02:58 pm: Edit

If a 300-point X2 ship can take on a 350-BPV BB even-up then it needs ot have a 350 BPV. Relative comparison is what BPV is all about.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

John what I'm talking about is after we've been able to quantify all that we can, there's still going to be some things we can't account for until we see them in action. How many times have BPVs been adjusted in the past because of new developments/discoveries (a recent example being the X-fix).

To say it another way, on the face of it a 300 BPV ship will be worth 300 BPV. It's just that there are going to be things in X2 (i.e. systems, rules, tactics, dynamics, etc.) that we can't perceive now, even though when we BPV'ed these ships we were 150% certain the BPV was right.

When X2 comes out the BPVs will be solid, until some REALLY good players comes along and push these ships past their envelope.

Also keep in mind that when I talk about X2 cruisers, I'm not talking about the inevitable true battlecruisers that will likely result from a major war. I'm talking about heavy cruisers/command cruisers (I'm leaning toward them being one and the same) that will dominate early-X2 action and the Trade Wars (IF X2 fleets are a reality during that time).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Agreed.

Especially once they get really used to the new toys. I think of the South Carolina Andro tactics and their effect on the Andro TC...

We may want to go slightly high on the BPV just to counterbalance the future.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Possibly so, John. I guess in the end such a decision will have to be SVC's.

BTW, John re-read my previous post. I edited it while you were posting.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

RBN,

Yeah. We do want to go back to XCAs and XCCs and not jump in with XBCH's.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Okay, here's my thoughts, again very much colored by my personal desire and the basis for my personal proposal I put up earlier.

Much of the talk about X2 BPV has centered around making it an increase above X1, because that's the way the pattern goes. That's fine, and if the majority like that approach, I can dig it.

But (always a but, isn't there) the thing about that pattern of higher and higher BPV's is that the show a progression from general purpose ships to pure warships, culminating in the X1 genration of combat ships. Look, for example, at the Fed CX. It is loaded with phasers; more phasers are on the CX saucer than are on a DNG one. Even the hypothetical BB has less saucer mounted phasers than the CX. Why? Because the CX is first and foremost a combat oriented ship...not a general purpose one. To me, the first run of X2 ships should be more multi-purpose. So, even though they might have cool new phasers and heavy weapons, and nifty toys like the ASIF and S-bridge, they aren't maxed out fighting ships like the X1 ships were. So, the relative gap in BPV, for me, isn't as wide. A Fed CX weighs in at 240. The XCA, as I presented it, is a bit more, but doesn't approach the 300 range because it has far less weapons and isn't designed to just go wipe the floor with the enemy. That kind of ship may indeed show up when the Xorks come a calling, and many of the designs we've seen put so far fall into that range nicely. Heck, I'd even go so far as to allow an XDN for some races who could build them by that time...sure would be neat to see. But for Y205, a fleet of high-quality, multi-purpose ships with BPV's of 250-280 or so works best for me. Again, though...that's me. I will happily work on other paths with the majority.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 05:01 pm: Edit

You're not the only one, Mike. You pretty much stated my case.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

I'm down w' that.

Puts a nice reset button on the universe, kinda goes harkens back to the pre-general war days and I like that.

I think you'll find very few of us were for wholesale escalation of force so much as lots of nifty features.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 06:04 pm: Edit

I also agree with that general line of thought. Since it seems to have been my rant on the X2 Photons thread that started this latest discussion of X2 BPV, I just wanted to clarify that it wasn't my intent with that rant to argue either for a high or low BPV specifically. But it seemed to me that some posters were assuming a 300-325 BPV ship and simultaneously assuming these ships would be a match for battleships. That didn't (and still doesn't) make any sense to me.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Well, I am surely with Mike.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Alan: The reasoning for the perceived assumption is that long ago there was a huge discussion that loosely placed the target BPV at ~300. Some wanted high (~400) others lower. Middle ground and the majority placed it at 300-350.

The only single ship with BPV that high is the B-10. This is brought up in discussions because BB's are ships with OFFICIAL BPVs. They are something to messure against.

The intention was never to design XCAs to fight BB. Just as a messure. Multi ship forces must also be used to pin point balance.

It;s the only way to come close since none of us has SVC fomula.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Loren:

OK - But the B10 comes in at 316 BPV with no B-refit, no K-refit, and slow drones - a configuration in which it would never actually be deployed. I think a minimum B10 BPV would more realistically be B10K with Y175 refit and fast drones (but no SFG, PFs or fighters), and that is 404 points. If (pre-Xork) X2 cruisers end up as 325 point ships, fine. But these shouldn't be ships that are capable of going head-to-head against a battleship.

I don't think we're disagreeing about anything, just clarifying points.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

I would like to make some points.

1) X2 is supposed to be a generational leap forward. Do we really need an X2 speed reseach vessel or will new X1 designs of research vessel do just fine!?!

2) The Admiralited would be loave to build new frontline warships that could not go toe to toe with the ISC CCX and that puts the BPV squarely in the 300-330 range.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 07:44 pm: Edit

The ISC CCX is overrated.

It's a good ship but no way is it worth 315.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Yup. Besides, the ISC is in the same position everyone else is...broke and not about to look for trouble for awhile. They have also lost their technological edge, and no longer have a custom-made fleet designed specifically for pacifying the rest of the galaxy. X2 ships are way, way to expensive to make them purely combat driven. This was the design of most ships prior to the war, and I think returning to this paradigm is the best way to start.

Now, as to X2 being a "generational leap forward". Generational leaps in technology don't necessitate having ships an order of magnitude better at combat. They can have vastly improved systems without being tiny battleships. Improved labs, probes, command systems, and power management are all "generational leaps"...but don't make the ship a combat monster. As I've mentioned before, the X1 ships were made with combat in mind. Hell, by the time of Op Unity, the Feds were leading their fleet with CX's, rather than DN's. X2 will have much better stuff, but on a smaller scale at first. In Y whatever, when the Xorks arrive, I'm all for having some nifty refits, including (hold your breath) the occasional XDN, 20 point photons, six disruptor Klingons, etc. But for now, no...it just doesn't make sense financially for these broke, war torn nations to start cranking out uber warships when there isn't any real need for them...not when a good general-purpose ship is every bit as effective as the best X1 ship was.