Upon second look at the XBC, I think it has too many P5s, #5&6 should be P1s I think.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 10:46 pm: Edit

X1 ships are expensive and difficult to crew and maintain. I don't see races counting on them long. By Y205 most of them are pretty old and not very capable of opperating for extended periods.

I could be wrong. All it takes is a different interpretation/commandment by SVC.

er...not to say only SVC can argue against me. I'm not so bold. I'm just...ah heck, I'm gonna log of for tonight. TO many bad things clouding my mind. See you all later.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit

The service life of a non-hot-warp ship is around 30 years.

The first line of X1 cruisers will be about 25 years old in 205, but I imagine the bulk of them (surviving) will be around 10-15 years old or so.

X1 ships are still going to be worth more in a fight than a few war cruisers. The navies will be smaller, but they will be made up of quality ships and veteren crews.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 11:06 pm: Edit

There might be a SLEP-type program to keep X1 ships in service to round out the fleet until the X2 forces are fully built.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 02:07 am: Edit

I think that is just about a given. Thee Fleets would go from GW +little X1, to abour 75/5, tthen maybe 50/50...arouond the time X2 rolls off the assembly line, X1 should make up the bulk of the mainlline coombat units, with Carriers/PFTs forming the rest.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Upon second look at the XBC, I think it has too many P5s, #5&6 should be P1s I think.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

CFant: There I agree. X2 would not start to take on fleet proportions until about Y210-215.

Actually, come Y205 there would only be one, maybe two, X2 ships per race. I might say two because the first might be a finalized prototype built two years earlier but not placed in any action outside of the core sector.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 11:42 am: Edit

Mike: I just realised you didn't use any NWO or ANY BOX. Any comment on that?

I thought you agreed that the NWO was just the sort of thing X2 would have given the circomstances of the era.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit

XD7 . . . I like the sound of that . . .

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Loren,

The cruisers won't have any NWO; just cargo. The sort of mission that might require NWO would fall to smaller ships like frigates or destroyers, who just don't have the hull volume to be well-equipped as is. In the case of the Fed XCA, for example, it has more than enough of, well, everything. Plenty of labs, transporters, tractors, hull...even some cargo space. Now, my XDD just doesn't have all that, so a box or two of NWO helps stretch its usefullness by letting the owner customize it for a given mission.

The ANY box was something I just personally decided I didn't like. It just feels to TNG'ish to me...a box that can be any system other than a weapon or power, and changes when you like? Nah. Not for me. At least with NWO, you strike a balance; options for when you need them, but you have to really think about what you take, and then make it work for you. The ANY box just seems to me to be to easy to use.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Cool, I see your point though I'm of differing oppinion about NWO. I agree about the ANY BOX. Frankly, I can't think of any way it could work that I like. I've personally decieded not to persue the idea and leave that one totally up to Steve.

Any thoughts on Drogue Bay, Mike?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Ugh, just say no.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Before I make any comments I'll need to mull over this material.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

CFant: Why? Don't you see my inescapable logic?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 12:42 am: Edit

Drogues are used out of Shuttle Bays. Period. End of story.

Give a ship drogues with no loss in shuttles is far too much of an advantage.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 12:53 am: Edit

"Drogues are used out of shuttle bays."

Yes, when they were first developed and deployed, because no doctrine had dveloped for them as part of a ship's organic capabilities. This doesn't mean that such doctrine would never be developed.

"Give a ship drogues with no loss in shuttles is far too much of an advantage."

Well, other than the fact that the drogue bay boxes aren't other boxes. And any drogues should still be paid for (which, if they are impreoved with any form of X-tech, makes them even more expensive). And they still have the problem of limiting you to a slow speed when deployed.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 08:08 am: Edit

Loren,

To be honest, I haven't really thought about them. Not because I don't like them...it's because I don't really know anything about them. I bought J2, but haven't really done anything with it. Before I could decide to use a dedicated drogue bay, I'd have to read up on them and decide just what an X2 drogue could do.

Ken, I wouldn't spend too much time on it. What was posted was simply my personal view of X2, put up to explain where I was coming from in other conversations. I don't think it's going to be adopted anytime soon by the majority, even if there are a few things people like.

BTW, Alex did pretty good yesterday. Give him some more practice, and he'll have it down pat!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Mike: I heartilly recomend that there be no actual changes to the Drogues them selves.

To review: A drogue bay is a small bay for drogues ONLY. The tractor tether is a fix item. They are hit on shuttle but can never land a shuttle (can't crash either. An attempt would utterly destroy the shuttle and do no damage because the shuttle never made it in.) No actual drogue is included though any type (with in racial limits) can be bought as part of force.

CFant: Alex's reply is ditto here. Though I'll add the question "But doesn't it make sense from a tactical and economic PoV that such a thing would be introduced? Drogues were originally implemented to save on wasting expensive Admins. They have some tactical advantages but Captain were forced to give up an Admin for them and this detracted from their every day non-combat missions. The addition of the Drogue bay give Captains both the advantages during combat and the full ability to carry out all their non-combat missions.

Alex: Exactly. I'm talking a logical implementation in New Hull Designs. Certainly this isn't something that could be a refit and the Bay would be accounted for in the base BPV of the ship.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

I'd just have to read up on them before deciding. Not that the concept of a drogue bay bothers me...I think it makes perfect sense, especially given that X2 ships will be using expensive advanced shuttles. I'll take a gander at them and let you know what I think. Might be a good thing for certain ships to carry. An X2 frigate decked out for escort duty might have one in place of a shuttle, for example.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit

If the speed-12 limitation Drogues place on the launching ship is kept intact, drogues pose a big problem for high-speed X-maneuvers.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Still better than Spd-4 WW.

If a change in Drogue rules are needed then that can be determined way after the proposal is accepted (i.e. if it is). For now I vote no changes to the drogues them selves.

However, clearly the Heavy Weapons drogue would have a change to the weapon systems it mounts. Still, the drogue rules should remain the same.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Oh ya, and isn't part of the goal of this group to try and slow down X2 a bit?

We can't make a rule to do it but we can present reason to slow down. Drogue Bay does lent to that sort of encuragement. It would also lend to a balancing of eras. Albeit, not a lot but a little. And a little here and there adds up.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 03:07 pm: Edit

My point was that the drogue is not a 100% complete advantage from an X2 perspective.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Ya, I get that. Are you also saying that X2 then would not use drogues (so no need for drogue bays) or just that having a drogue bay isn't as unbalancing as CFant stated?

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Drogues are superb for X1 ships (since they can, over a turn break or with good planning, weasel off a stack of seekers and then immediately change speed to 31). Having dedicated bays for them on X2 ships seems very sensible to me. From a "this is a logical thing to design into our ships" perspective, at least.