Agreed,

No, Loren, i was not lobbying against a "drogue rack".

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 05:59 pm: Edit

John,

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

On Drogues...I don't want to buy J2 just to play X2...although I haven't got anything against J2.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Then again I don't wont to have to buy R10 to play X1 and R10 is something I would like to lay my hands on...so maybe some problems are unavoidable.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 08:04 am: Edit

Hmmm...a drogue bay. The Klingon XDD I made has a great spot for one. Might be worth looking into. I wouldn't put it on the cruisers, though...just the smaller ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Not on Cruisers: Curious as to why.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 11:07 am: Edit

Well, I kind of like the cruisers to have very defined rolls when in combat. Controlling the battle, delivering hefty fire, etc. The specialty role of a drogue seems like something a smaller, escort ship might have. For example, In WWII battleships had no ASW capabiltiy; they relied on destroyers for that. Sort of going for that same feel. Besides, it'll help keep the BPV down, too, and keep everyone from having the things on all their ships. Just my preference.

By Mike Fannin (Daelin) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

A thought just popped into my empty head:

What if a ship could be designated as 'escorting' a ship within, say, 30kkm, and WW and drogues had a limited wild swac function with regards to seeking weapons targetted on that ship.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Mike:A thought just occured to me: Between Drogue Bay AND NWO a ship gains pretty much the function of an ANY BOX.

It does serve smaller ships well. SO I agree that they would be first candidates but I see Cruisers needing the same flexability during the X2 era (for X2 era specific reasons).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Just one observation, in ww2 US warships (Not sure about carriers) like BB's, CA's CL's and DD's were equipped with streaming paravanes (look at the old picutes where there are long poles and booms stored on deck, Floating Dry Dock and Classic Warships series of books have many views available.)

The problem the Real World US Navy had was when you started streaming paravanes you limited the types of manuvers the ships, (and the task force as a whole) could perform.

The nice thing about paravanes was the ability to prevent ship damage/loses to minefields.

An improved set of Drogue abilities could fit very well with the X2 ships...

a very nice advantage that earlier generations of ships couldnt match.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

A precedent (sorta) for drouge bays is the fact that the FRA (Omega) have designed ships with bays dedicated entirely to shuttle bombs.

I kind of like the idea on using D.B's myself.

But lets not make ANY changes to the drogue rules themselves until 2X is much more defined.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 04:26 pm: Edit

I was thinking that X2 ships would be designed with Drogue Bays but with no changes to the drogues themselves; in Y205+.

At some period after there might be some improvements that would result in rules changes.

Some changes are implicit however. And X2 ship with a seeking weapons drogue will likely launch the weapons it carries; such as X-Drones. Or Pl-L instead of Pl-F. (the latter might have a higher BPV cost but would probably be a X1 type improvement rather than an X2 unit.)

I think it is important there be the minimal changes to the drogues them selves. Drogue Bay is cool and adds a new internal and a short rule but I don't think any more changes are needed.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Well, it might work...have to try it, I guess.

This ship is another "personal" ones; the Klingon destroyer. That aft tractor would be an ideal spot for a drogue bay.

R3.?? Klingon D-19 Advanced Destroyer

Same philosophy as the XD7, though with less room for refits (an obvious issue, given a smaller hull).

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Huh... finally, a (somewhat) decent looking SSD out of the X2 topic. Now call it what it is... a cruiser.⁴²

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Robert, why should a ship with only two disruptors, move cost 1/2, and only 7 phasers be a Cruiser.

Modern DD are CA by tonnage the standards of 1925. They are BB by combat power, and they are far better than a 1925 BB for most uses.

This ship looks like a DD to me.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 05:37 pm: Edit

The semetry of the four hull in the boom is good but that makes it bigger than a D5 boom. I think that is in part why Robert says that. I'd suggest making the boom hull three like the D5. That's one bigger than the F5 so it should be OK.

I have been trying to figure out a way to put three Disruptors on the XDD. I haven't found a good one with out three engines and that not good either (for a main production design).

I dunno, maybe in the Xork era there will be an X2 Frignaught.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Now, now loren! Steady there lad!

Well cross the Xork'in bridge when we get to it!
(or it gets to us as the cse may be!)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 05:44 pm: Edit

I know, but I haven't crossed the line. It's OK to mention putting off an idea until Xork developement time. I'm not presenting any thing now. Don't worry. I'm still on the wagon. Okee dokee.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Err, a cruiser? Let's see...

The Klingon XF5, which this is based upon, has 13 boxes in the boom...this one has 15. The aft hull is a bit larger, but that's why its called a destroyer, not a frigate. It is roughly the same size as the D5X. Given it is a generation ahead, that doesn't bother me.

The Fed CX has as many boxes as a DN, yet it is not one. Size class, move cost, and general abilities determine what a ship is. Klingon ships in particular don't fit standard naming practice. In no way is the D7 comparable to anyone else's battlecruiser...nor is anyone else's frigate like the F5.

But, I'll be a sport about it. Let's compare this ship to it's predecessors...

	F5	F5X	XDD
Box Count	34	41	49
	-	17%	16%

As you can see, the F5X increases its number of boxes by 17% over the F5. The XDD, by 16% over the F5X. Hardly a huge difference in the change.

How about power, then?

	F5	F5X	XDD
TRP	20	30	36
	-	33%	17%

Or, perhaps Maximum possible damage is a good way to compare. At range 0, with no drones, here's what it looks like...

	F5K	F5X	XDD
Damage	38	56	62
		32%	10%

The F5X increases it's power over the F5 by 33%...the XDD over the F5X is only 17%...a fairly modest increase for a new generation of ships. Even the batteries, which jumped up by three times the power in X1, were unchanged in this, and other, X2 designs. Damage possibilities are fairly similar, as well. The X2 design doesn't improve maximum damage over the X1 version by a huge amount...certainly no where near the change from GW to X1, which is a full 1/3 more.

These particular designs are very modest for X2 compared to others we've seen. I was very careful when making them to get them to fit a certain standard...better than X1, but not with huge increases like X1 saw over GW. How this classifies as an X2 cruiser, I don't know. If this isn't modest enough of a change, I would be curious to see one that is.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I made my comment as a mild joke, as I really don't keep up with the X2 stuff (except to look at SSDs).⁴²

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Actually it is a cruiser...of sorts.

It's a Psuedo Cruiser.

33 box #1 shield...a Cruiser sheilds on a DD movement cost (MC0.5).

7Ph-5s in a perfect oblique...that's 24.5 points of Phaser damage at Range 8, that's better than a D7's Disruptor Damage...it's a cruiser.

2 Heavy Disruptors is 10 damage by 2 by 5/6 at Range 4 which is better than a Fed CA's 4Ph-1s at R4 because 16.66 points of damage beats 16!...so it's is a Pseudo cruiser.

2 X2 G-racks with 8 spaces of drones and highly advanced ADD ability...that's be the equal of 2 Bracks and an ADD-12 so I woul;d say it's a cruiser.


All in all it is capable of being a cruiser ( and somethimes more capable ).


But I think that's a good thing...I think X2 Frigates should be able to go toe to toe with MY and GW Cruisers and win half the time.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:06 am: Edit

MJC, it packs P1s for the moost part, only 2 P5s.

I must say though, this ship has 20 power available after plotting speed 31.

That is a LOT of excess power, no matter how manny tthings it has to power.

Add in a triple capacitor.....it will never be moving slower than 30/31, ever.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit

Oops.

So it looses about 6 points of phaser damage.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 06:35 am: Edit

Chris,

Yeah, I know...that's one reason that capacitor isn't added yet. The F5X is close, with 16 power available after speed 31. For this XDD, I wanted to keep that power curve and maybe a tiny touch more. Powering the SIF will eat up that excess power nicely, at 2 points for low power and 4 for high. In fact, when on high, the power curve for it is almost exactly the same as the F5X. Ditto for the other three ships I've actually completed (Fed XCA, XDD, and the two Klingons). I don't like power curves higher than X1 and try to avoid them, but did want to make allowances for the X2 ship to match the X1 power curve when using the SIF.

MJC,

It is not a cruiser...it is a destroyer that can best a GW cruiser. A GW cruiser can whip an EY dreadnought, but that doesn't make it a DN. This little XDD was about as tame as I could go and still make it different enough from X1 to make it worth while.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:01 am: Edit

It's still got too much power. As an exercise what do you think it's BPV would be with FX warp?