This idea is intended to increase tactical options for Federation ships, starting late in the General War, circa 182.
Enhanced torpedos are simply tube improvements that allow greater arming flexibility. It gives the feds some of the abilities of light and heavy photons but not all of them.
Rule: allow the federation to arm his torpedos as mini photons, or standard photons normally. Once began as a light it cannot be completed as a standard but could be overloaded as light.
2)Allow the photons to be completed as Heavy photons with the following restrictions.
a. it takes 3 turns to arm 2/2/2 instead of 2.
b. as a heavy the torpedo can only be fired at range 8 or less.
c. the torpedo could be overloaded as a heavy.

Enhanced photons allow more tactical options for the Fed. Bigger torps for prepared attacks or base busting, or lighter ones when maneuver is needed. These options somewhat offset the lack of a superior targeting system in two ways. The chance of hitting stays the same but the effect of missing is offset by more damage from those that do hit, or speed is increased as the warp drain is less when light photons are used.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 09:28 am: Edit

While I'm all for giving the Photon Torpedo more firing options, I'm not sure I like the idea of actually improving it. That is to say, any new firing mode should have penalties associated with them so that the net improvement in the photon torpedo is zero. For your ideas, perhaps the following disadvantages:

• Light Torpedo: Increased arming distance - Can't hit at range 0-2, unless overloaded, does feedback damage if fired at range 0-2 as an overload.
• Heavy Torpedo: Inaccurate - -1 on all to hit numbers; can't be fired as an overload beyond range 4.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Interesting Stephen, but I don't think the additional restrictions are neccessary. For these reasons, it takes 3 turns to arm the heavy instead of 2 and it is limited to overload range. Second the light variation should not be harder to use than the standard version, in fact the Federation should be able to download to this form similar to the way plasmas can be downloaded. Another thing to consider would be allowing the Feds to hasty repair their photons as lights.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Hmm. So the Light Photon is essentially an 'underloaded' photon (like the PPD), not necesarily even a separate type, just altering the minimum photon power cost to 1+1 and doing the standard Damage=2x Energy with a maximum of 2+2 Energy (without overloading). Might be aproblem in that it becomes possible to do a 1+3 photon. Or keep it as you originally said. A light photon being charged a 1+1, standard or 2+2/1+3 and acting as an overload, but not being convertable to a normal photon, with ou discharging the torpedo and starting over.

As for the heavy. I think it does need some additional limitation, since it's restricted to overload range, it only makes sense to fire it as an overload. Otherwise why take 3 turns to arm a 12 point photon when you can already do it in 2 with normal overloads? So as I see it, the range restriction doesn't really restrict it except to keep you from firing a (very low hit chance) 12 point warhead past 8 hexes.

Maybe keep the to-hits the same, but since 8 hexes is the Heavy torpedo's 'standard' range, it should have a shorter 'overload' range, such as the 4 hex max I suggested previously. Still... I think a to-hit penalty is also needed, otherwise you might face 4 fully overloaded heavy torpedoes at range 2, each hitting on an 1-5, all hitting on average and causing 96 points of damage + phasers. Reducing the to-hit by 1 (making it 1-5@0-1, 1-4@2, 1-3@3-4 makes it a bit more reasonable. Of course firing 4 full heavy overloads at range 0-1 is more or less suicidal do to the feedback.

I assume in both cases the hold cost would remain 1/4 the energy in the torpedoe?

By Randall Black (Randy) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Edit

I tend to think that the 3 turn load is a about as much a limitaion as you need for the Heavies myself. The extra turn of damage taken by the fed while he is trying to get his heavies up will more than likely reduce him down to only 3 photons or maybe even 2 and then he will still have to roll to hit you.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 02:41 pm: Edit

The hold costs would be the same as that listed in P-6. Consider this. Maybe the rule should allow the Fed to load standard heavy torps but with the 3 turn rule but be subject to shock if used in this mode? The photons are already tough enough to hit with so the -1 penalty is a bit rough. The addition of shock plus feedback due to close range fire is a pretty severe penalty don't you think?

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Stephens'concern is well founded if you start the scenario at wsIII. If not limited in some way the FED may end the scenario before it gets going. After the initial volley of torps it is probable that the Fed will load standard or lights for the rest of the battle, with maybe one in the heavy mode if he can manage it.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 05:40 pm: Edit

I don't see a problem with the download to a Light photon, as they could easily be treated as is the underloaded PPD (so 1+2 or 1+3 is treated as an OL light photon). I doubt it would be used except in very specific circumstances (eg saving half a point of power to kill a shuttle with a 6-pt warhead).

The Heavy is an abomination. NOBODY will pass this up if they can possibly do it. Given that, outside a fleet battle, 90% of photons are fired as overloads, all this does is delay the initial engagement by a turn and increase the Fed's R8 damage by 50%. It's not far short of upgrading all F-plasma to L-plasma.

The Fed's huge ability is his massive crunch. His bugbear is the photon's inaccuracy. Improving the former is a BAD thing for the game, as you can win the game with a single volley: crap shoots-R-us. It doesn't matter what you do the accuracy.

Even adding Shock isn't going to help. I'll accept a few shock points on my CA if the first volley cripples that D7.

By Randall Black (Randy) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I dont know If I was Klingon I would come into the guy before gets them armed as Heavyies after 2 turns fo Overloaded Disruptors and a Scatterpack plus a couple more drones and maybe a Type IV in there also I dont think his 1 or two photons he will have left will be that big of deal

By Randall Black (Randy) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 05:53 pm: Edit

I do think that there should be shock damage though it only makes sence since cruiser hulls weren't designed to fire those heavy torps

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 03:49 am: Edit

I was also considering one more limitation on the heavy use, that being the possibility that the tube could be disabled when the heavy is fired. I was thinking 1-2on a d-6. That way you have shock, breakdown, and 3 turn arming as limitations. As far as being over powered, I don't think so. The Fed will most likely load his torps with various settings to increase tactical flexibility and in my opinion will not load all of his torps as heavies all the time. At any rate the Feds need something as they will have to face plasma sabots late in the general war. And this rule creates some new options for the Feds to use as well as some interesting dilemmas for the klinks and cloakers.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:46 am: Edit

Good greif! How many limitations do you need? The heavy photon comes built in with dangerous limitations anyway...enormous power cost to arm, plus some really nasty feedback damage. Think of a fed CA...it'll take him all his power to arm the things, then he'll take up to what, 24 points of feedback damage if he hits with them? I think having some shock effects makes sense, and having the OPTION of arming over three turns is nice (provided you can't start at WSIII with heavy photons loaded) but that's enough. IMHO, of course.

I've played rules very similar to this before, but with one modification...only size class 2 ships could use the heavy photons. Any ship could downsize them if they liked, but only the largest ships got to use the heavies.

I like the idea of more flexible photons, that's for sure. I think your idea has merit, Hugh. Nice job.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit

more flexible photon? how much more flexible do you need? it already is the most flexible HW in the game.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Mike, if we allow non-size class 2 ships to use this photon rule, which would be possible since the rule represents an overall improvement to the standard photon,the tube burnout and adjusted SEP levels might be wise. That way the Fed player must make a calculated risk to use them. The feedback damage only comes into play at very close range as you know and may have little overall impact in most duels. So that is why I suggested the burnout rule.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Chris,

I disagree. Disruptors have two special firing modes (derfacs and UIM), plasmas have bolts, enveloping modes, shotgun modes, and can be downfired. Hellbores can be direct fired (or whatever that mode is called) and fusions have two levels of overloads. Photons may be reliable and steady, but they aren't at all flexible. I think Hugh's rules are a step in the right direction, but with some of the penelties I've seen proposed, I'd never use them. Why fire a photon for another 50% damage if you're going to have to spend even more warp power on it, risk blowing it up, damaging your ship, and having to get to an even more ludicrously close range to hit? I'd never do it.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Mike,the Awr refits help some on the warp costs. So you think 3 turn arming and shock is enough?

By Randall Black (Randy) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 02:33 am: Edit

I think 3 turn arming and shock are plenty.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Yes, I do. Three turns of arming time makes them more realistic for units with less power, and explains why they're so much more powerful. The shock effect also makes sense. These penalties plus the feedback damage and power cost are plenty to offset the additional damage, IMHO. Good job, Hugh!

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:16 pm: Edit

I guess I'm still worried about that at WSIII people will start with Heavy Torpedos, fire them once, and if that doesn't decide the game, stick to the other firing modes. Perhaps simply adding that at WS III, you can only have 2 turns of arming completed on Heavy Torpedoes (or, since they are a non-standard mode with possiblely nasty side effects, say that a ship can not begin a scenario with any energy allocated to arming photons as heavies.)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I think that's acceptable. I also think the issue of fast loading for x-ships has to be addressed. I'd say an emphatic "no" to one-turn arming. Two turns yes...but not one.

As the rules stand now, 3 turns to arm essentially gives you only one advantage...more crunch power. Over time, you'll do the same damage as you would normally, just more damage less often.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 02:00 pm: Edit

What I will do now is try to compute what the SEP for the heavy use would be vis avis the class or size class ship in question. I wonder what the Steves may think of this idea. At any rate once I figure the SEP's I'll write an official proposal. I'll include Stephens suggestion on the ws-III limitation which I think is a good idea. If anyone has ideas about the shock SEp's let me know.
If anyone is interested in playtesting this by e-mail, let me know. I'll be happy to play or moderate that play.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 04:12 pm: Edit

SWF is right. I'd use the heavies to start with, and not let the enemy anywhere near me while I'm loading up. A turn or two of R15 disruptors on a non-facing shield isn't going to bother me, not if my R8 average (for a CA inc 6P1) is 61, R4 is 87, R2 is 109. No D7 is going to get up again after that.

Once battle is joined, I'm highly unlikely to have the time to spare to crank more power into the things; I'll just do the 2-turn OL and thump him.

It's a bit different in the R30 fleet battle, where the 3-turn proxy would rule the roost. A 10-ship fleet firing 40 of these things at R30 would average 60 damage, enough to remove a CW from the enemy line. Compare the usual proxy shot, which does 40, knocking down the front shield and doing about 5-10 in.

And lest you claim that you're putting more power in, you're not. You're actually putting in LESS, because a) you have to pay for only 2/3 the ECCM, and b) you don't have to maneuver so well to get fewer shots.

On a fixed map, things change: either a) you have time to arm them, in which case they get used as above, or b) you don't, so the rule is redundant.

Restricting it to SC2 is a start, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem that you're just adding X internals to the first volley.

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Another thing to think about is after two turns, a normal photon is finished (after spending 2 and 2), leaving the third turn for holding, plus 1 point put towards a 10 point overload. So, instead of a 10 point photon, you want to make it how big? 12? Would you have to state that you are making a heavy photon or a standard overload during the third turn? I think that's a bit much. Applying that to X-technolgy would be even worse. What about during the second turn, you want to fire it as a normal, but you had planned on charging a it as a heavy? Could you, or do you have to wait until the third turn. So, eventually, would you have to plot what type of photon you are arming sarting on the first turn?

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 01:07 pm: Edit

My thought on the arming designation is that on the first turn you have to decide if it would be light and on the start of the second turn whether it would be standard or heavy. Jim when you account for the plasma races using Sabots, the klincks using a combination of drone waves, overloaded disrupters combined with regular Uim and derfacs long range support fire, and the plethora of towed pf's that any Lyran fleet(at least) would bring to such a fleet fight your argument doesn't hold. The feds may be able to focus on one ship with those proxys, but they will only get one major volley. In addition the smaller ships using the heavy option will be much more vulnerable to the shock effects, leading to at least some of them breaking down or building enough sep's that they wouldn't dare use the heavy option again. You also seem to think that the Feds will only use these weapons in massed volleys, in an all or nothing attack. I think it is much more likely that they won't. At any rate the idea is to create a weapons option that gives the Feds some tactical flexibility in response to Coalition weapons improvement late in the war. Some may say drones or PL-F's do this. This however is inaccurate as the drones were always an Auxiliary weapon except on specially modified variants and fighters, and the Plasma F's were an even more limited refit designed to give the Lyrans and Klingons a rude surprise but not as an overall fleet refit. It is more likely that the Federation would improve their main-stay, the Photon. It is unlikely that some improvements to this system would be unavailable in the 30 or so years from the time the modern photon was developed in the Middle years (overloadable standards)through the General War. All other races tweek their technology as the war progresses why should the Feds be different? Moreover the tech for light and Heavy photons was developed at the same time as that for standard photons, so the Feds have existing templates to use. It follows that lacking funds to develop an improved targeting system, that they would go with what they know and improve the photons themselves adding new tactical options for their Captains to use and their foes to deal with.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Hugh,

Well put. I agree completely that the photon is overdue for an update, especilly since it is the Feds primary heavy weapon. However, to be fair, it did sort of get one in the form of fast loading for x ships.

I'd use the rules you've posted, but as to how I think it depends on the player, and the scenario. Personally, in a large fleet engagement I'd let the DN's or BC's use the heavy torpedos, and let the lighter ships just use the normal ones. That way, you have less chance of a breakdown, and you can fire in a nice pattern of normal on T1, then heavy on T2, then normal on T3, then both on T5. That last shot with both would be nasty, especially at close range.

If the klingons get a UIM and a DERFACS, the Feds ought to get something. Especially at 1X, where most Klingon ships get an additional pair of disruptors.