**Cough** Hydrans. **Cough Cough**LDR.
ADM
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit |
Tos: Incoming email.
SVC: I've marked March 24th to email you concerning my SSJ proposal (I believe this will be enough time for you to get back from GAMA.42
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Edit |
Compromise:
Assuming we do new SSDs, We do 1 X-battery on SC4, 2 for SC2 and 3. Expanded reserve power but not insane reserve power.
| By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:27 pm: Edit |
Wish list:
X-FRD (this was added to F&E to repair X-ships, an SSD would be nice)
X-Tug (to pull said X-FRD)
Fed CX, version 2.0. The description in the R section is that the first CX was converted from the Vincennes, which is a CB. Yet none of the extra systems in the CB's secondary hull were included.
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit |
Here is my ship listing for X1R... along with the original proposal "letter" I was going to send to SVC:
Quote:The demand for new X-ships is increasing. The General War time period is quickly becoming overwhelmed with variants and new hulls. Many of the recently released ships for SFB have been “ported” into F&E with mixed results. The Area Control Ships, Scout, Patrol, and Interdiction Carriers have resulted in new rules which have made F&E more and more based on fighters. While this may not be a bad thing (I believe it has been stated that the General War was the “age of the carrier”), another influx of “war designs” may dilute the game during the early and middle years, while the later years dissolve into “standard lines” of HDWs, NCAs, and DNHs (not to mention PFTs and SCSs).
An increased number of X-Ships could allow for more variety in Federation and Empire. SFB players would welcome some new designs allowing for more diverse battles in these later years. Currently a battle against the Andromedans (who were defeated due to the development of X-Technology) in Y195 yields the exact same ship types that are available in Y182 (with a few exceptions). A new series of X-Technology ships will not only yield more interesting battles, but will also allow for the “fleshing out” of the Andromedan Invasion – which will help in the development of AndroWars for F&E. A never-ending cycle of Starfleet Universe Goodness.
Here I present a possible Module X1R. This is not X2. In fact, I am not at all sure SFB is ready for X2. The years of X1 Technology (approximately Y181 through Y205) are ripe for new development. This could include new rules, new ships, and new races (after all, the Xorkellians don’t just “show up”). In addition, a new X1 module would present the perfect place to formally publish the X1 Errata developed – not everyone buys Captain’s Log or reads the web page.
It is my understanding that “new ship” modules generally list 4-5 ship variants which are carried over to each of the major Galactic races. Examples include FCRs, Fast Ships, and HDWs in R6 or Scout, Patrol, and Interdiction Carriers in J2. I don’t believe such an approach is needed, or indeed a good idea, for X1R. In fact, many of the designs listed below have already been printed by ADB (or in the case of SFT, with ADB’s permission). With this technology barely touched upon in the published SFU, the door is wide-open for new and different ship classes. However, there are some variants that can be copied to each of the major races.
X-POLICE: The Police will have started to face X-Orions by the early / mid Y180s, during which time they will be slaughtered. Even if the various fleets start to assign War Destroyers to Police duty, the speed of X-Ships (as presented in F&E) will allow an Orion to be where the Police aren’t... and leave before the Police arrive. By allowing limited X-Tech to be sent to the various Police forces, players could get a different dynamic out of their X-ships as really small ships maneuver in ways never before seen.
X-HEAVY BATTLECRUISER: The X-BCH is something of a faux-pas in SFB - X1 allows no X-DNs or X-BCHs. While I fully understand this mentality (and agree), X-Technology is for no one if not for “power gamers”. The people who want this module want X-BCHs (and yes, X-DNs) simply because they are “more power, more weapons”. I feel that a compromise of conjectural X-BCHs is a great way to encourage people to not only continue to support the SFU (and ADB), but will promote ADB as willing to do what the players want.
X-TUGS: These units are vital to the ability for the races of the General War to rebuild. While not every race needs an X-Tug, the Tholians for example, most would definitely invest in one.
NOTE: I’m “iffy” on X-Tugs. They seem like a good idea, but I honestly don’t think they would have a place in the SFU until X2. The SSD “space” could be used for a token X1P ship, or perhaps another race-specific X-Ship. It could also be that an “Advanced Tactical Transport” could be better for some (all?) of the races.
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit |
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit |
That’s approximately 63 SSDs (I believe the General Units plus X-Fighter bases could be compressed to 4 SSDs + the FRD).
I have basically fleshed out most every ships that I want and/or think others want to see. These include a Romulan X-Mauler (which I never want, but suspect others do), and 2 X-Carriers, with X-fighters, for the Kzinti (which SVC basically has killed). Obviously this means that I need to go back to the drawing board (though I still think an X-fighter for the Kzinti isn't a bad idea).
NOTE: This proposal was self-aggrandizing (of course), so any ship that is not an obvious variant is probably a ship I created myself. Did I expect that all of these would be accepted by SVC? No... but I certainly hoped they would.42
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:53 pm: Edit |
Robert,
Why do you want X-Ground Bases? Presumably for increased shielding
Why do you want a Fed X-Escort? Presumably to have X-Gatlings for the Feds. Which we don't know ever existed. What is the advantage over a DDX?
Jeff
Why do you want an X-Tug? Does it really help to move a FRD in F+E an extra hex by op movement? Strategic Movement is still 12 hexes with a tug. (421.3) Isn't that far enough?
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:56 pm: Edit |
Scott:
Increased shielding, increased power (BTTY), better weapons (range, "pulse phasers").
Quote:Why do you want X-Ground Bases? Presumably for increased shielding
Personally, I don't really want a Fed X-Escort (or any X-Escorts for that matter). However, it wouldn't surprise me if someone in Starfleet HQ looked into the possibility to escort the GVX. My SSD doesn't have X-Gats, but it does have shuttle-tractors for F-111s, cargo for supplies, and 4 GX racks.42
Quote:Why do you want a Fed X-Escort? Presumably to have X-Gatlings for the Feds. Which we don't know ever existed. What is the advantage over a DDX?
| By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit |
Scott: For defence, a standad Gatling with full Aegis is far superior to a Xph-1 with X-Aegis.
Tugs: from a background veiw (rather than a F+E veiw, X-Tugs are better than standard tugs, becuse their strategic speed is faster (F+E just ignores this by allowing general 'strategic movement')
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit |
Robert Cole:
I'm confused by your suggested Tholians. The NDDs in this galaxy were all destroyed long before X-tech became available. Where does the NDX come from? Are you suggesting it as a purely conjectural ship? And what is a "Tholian Assault Cruiser", upon which your ACX is presumably based?
Alternate Tholian suggestions:
A new-construction X-destroyer - a different design than the current DDX (which is more like an X-frigate in firepower) but still using X1 rather than X2 technology.
An X-version of the NCL.
An X-version of the NCH. (Only if other races get X-BCHs. The Tholian DPW is a somewhat more powerful than standard BCHs and an X-version would probably be too powerful. The NCH is a bit less than other races BCHs' but an NCHX would fit with the general Tholian tendancy that their ships are somewhat smaller (and somewhat less expensive) than their counterparts from other races.)
On a different matter, I have severe misgivings about a Flamehawk-X, or any X-mauler. I'm concerned that that much reserve power on a ship will not be balanced.
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 02:30 pm: Edit |
Yes. The Tholians have designs for the NDD, and even drafted designs of the NDD+collar (NDH?), so I believe they would have created an X-version of a the ship in case they were ever able to build one.
Quote:I'm confused by your suggested Tholians. The NDDs in this galaxy were all destroyed long before X-tech became available. Where does the NDX come from? Are you suggesting it as a purely conjectural ship?
There is no Assault Cruiser. The ACX is a CCX with a large pallet welded to the bottom (like the NCA). This increases the Move Cost to 1, but adds more hull, weapons, and power. This creates an excellent GW fleet flagship for the race which can ill afford a large number of X-ships.42
Quote:And what is a "Tholian Assault Cruiser", upon which your ACX is presumably based?
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:02 pm: Edit |
Robert Cole:
Regarding your comment about the Tholians not being able to afford a large number of X-ships:
Based on F&E economics and rules for X-conversions, a few years after they qualify for X-tech, the Tholians may have a larger percentage of their fleet X-tech than any other race. This of course is a function of their very small fleet, rather than the ability to produce large numbers of X-ships. Just an observation, not relevant to anything in particular.
Regarding the ACX:
Do you see this as the Tholian counterpart to the other races' BCHXs? I'm not sure this is a preferable solution to the NCHX (though I can't be sure without knowing exactly what an ACX and the various BCHXs will look like). The Tholians eventually converted 3 NCAs to NCXs. (Module X-1 said 2, but Module J-2 changed it to 3 in the discussion of the "unbuilt variant" NCV.) Converting NCXs to NCHXs should provide plenty of X-flagship capability for the Tholians, given their small (in total ship numbers) X-fleet. The NHD, NSCS, and DHW provide plenty of effective flagships for the non-X fleet.
I don't have an intrinsic objection to the NDX, but if the Tholians are only going to get 2 new ships, I'ld rather see them get ships they can actually use. If they get 4 or 5 new ships, making one of them conjectural is fine.
P.S. You refer to the ACX having a pallet wielded to the bottom "like the NCA". I believe you mean the CAN. The NCA is a Neo-Tholian heavy cruiser and doesn't have a pallet.
| By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:24 pm: Edit |
"Presumably to have X-Gatlings for the Feds. Which we don't know ever existed."
**Cough** Hydrans. **Cough Cough**LDR.
ADM
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:44 pm: Edit |
"For the FEDs." I was specific enough.
Why keep letting them x-tech everything.
Let the Klingon X-Tech the SFG so they can move and fire the thing then!
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:57 pm: Edit |
Alan:
True, an NCHX (NHX?) would be an easier conversion, but the ACX is more fun! Seriously, though, part of the X-Flag vs. X-Squad problem was that X-ships could outrun their GW counterparts. The ACX, due to its higher move cost, has considerably less extra warp than most of the late war ships (32 warp, MC 1). This would allow it to be a DN equiv. (6 Disr, 14xP1, 9xAPR, 8xBTTY - it is a monster, no doubt about it), but it can't outrun its own support ships.
Quote:Regarding the ACX:
Do you see this as the Tholian counterpart to the other races' BCHXs? I'm not sure this is a preferable solution to the NCHX (though I can't be sure without knowing exactly what an ACX and the various BCHXs will look like). The Tholians eventually converted 3 NCAs to NCXs. (Module X-1 said 2, but Module J-2 changed it to 3 in the discussion of the "unbuilt variant" NCV.) Converting NCXs to NCHXs should provide plenty of X-flagship capability for the Tholians, given their small (in total ship numbers) X-fleet. The NHD, NSCS, and DHW provide plenty of effective flagships for the non-X fleet.
You are correct... those strange Tholian designations...42
Quote:P.S. You refer to the ACX having a pallet wielded to the bottom "like the NCA". I believe you mean the CAN. The NCA is a Neo-Tholian heavy cruiser and doesn't have a pallet.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit |
Robert, I'm putting you in charge of compiling the X1R ships. You have presented 63 ships. I want 100 ships sorted into categories of importance and viability. No more than 15% should be conjectural or unbuilt variants. I recommend you solicit feedback from this forum in building your fleet and keep me appraised of your progress.
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 05:30 pm: Edit |
Sounds good.
The obvious ones are:
DN-X (100% guaranteed to be conj. - and won't be published in my perfect world)... figure 9 ships (F, K, R, Z, G, T, H, L, I).
BCH-X (almost 99% guaranteed to be conjectural) for most races... figure 7-8 ships (F, K, R? (KCR), Z, G, H, L, I).
TUG-X... I'm not sure if these are necessary before X2 era, but I know several people want them... figure 7-10 ships (F, K, R? (KRT), Z, G, T? (LTT), H, L, D? (LTT), I).
POLICE-X... I have no doubt the Galactic Police forces will be in trouble. Will they get X-Tech or the older GW DWs? I don't know. It may be that the normal police ship would be an old DW, while the Police Flagships would be new X-ships. However, if we wanted to look at the possibilities... figure 7-8 ships (F, K (E3X or G2X?), R (R-section already gives the SEA to the Rom Police, maybe they will get the SEX), Z, G, H, L, D (MPX), I? (FFX would be pretty small already).
Some races have no FF-X (G, H, L, I, D (MPX?)). Gorns, Hydran, and Lyran are almost guaranteed not to build an FF-X (these ships were obsolete before the GW). LDR might, but then the MP is a better ship 1/2 the time anyway.
The Seltorians are left out of the above listing as I feel they don't need any X-variants. Their ships will be all but conjectural anyway. So, base hulls: CA, CL, FF, DD.
Total: 39-44 "class" ships.
When we add the "already published in CapLog" ships... Fed DGX (CL16), Fed GVX (CL26), Kli D5XD (CL16), Klingon E3X (SFT 33), Kzi CMXD (SL92) / Kzin CDX (CL26) we are at 44-49 ships.
Add in a few generic units (FRD-X, MB-X?, perhaps an X-Sector Base) we basically have 1/2 of the number we are looking for.
I'm leaving for home, so please feel free to make suggestions.42
| By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:18 pm: Edit |
Tos, Robert,
Are y'all interested at all in a Fed XCL? If so, I have a partial SSD (hull and shields) that I have been toying with.
| By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:46 pm: Edit |
I have created and submitted a CLX to ADB. I personally consider it one of my best designs (different from the original NCL in some major ways, close enough to recognize its pedigree).
I would love to see that design in X1R (but I am biased), but a straight NCL Þ CLX doesn't spark much interest... compare an NCL to the DDX and you will see why.
HOWEVER: This is not my X1R. This is a listing of what seems to be the most wanted ships in X1R. So feel free to express your opinions and wants, and my profile email address is available if someone wants to discuss something in detail before coming to the BBS (we will probably keep Tos in the loop on such discussions - if there are any).42
| By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit |
One ship I'd like to see is a Fed DLX. An obvious off shoot of the old DDL. If space is a concern, I think it would be easy enough to combine it with the SSD for the DGX.
| By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 07:34 pm: Edit |
Robert,
I'll send the partial that I have. Unfortunately, there is not too much room variation when trying to create something for the Feds between the DDX and CLX.
Also, I second Jeremy's oppinion on the DLX. As an aside if there is no major objections, perhaps we could squeze in more of the 'obvious' variants if they're done like on the same SSDs like module C4 did.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 07:58 pm: Edit |
I'm expecting lots of X variants. The basic warship classes have been well covered between X1 and Robert's list. Show me what variants there could be. List everything, we will whittle it down once we have a comprehensive list.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit |
X-Commando ship. Replace some of the phasers and heavy weapons from a mainline X1 ship with transporters.
Start a Gorn CMX, which has 3 transporters.
Replace the two S-torps with 4 transporters.
Replace the 4 APR with 4 trans.
Replace the 2 LS and 2 RS ph-1 with 4 more transporters.
Now the ship has 15 transporters, the power to use them, 2 M-torps and 9 ph-1.
X-Battle Pods. What if a X0 tug had an X1 BP available? Or if the X1 BP had a C Warp box or two?
| By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit |
DFX or CFX
| By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit |
Tos,
I realize there will probably be quite a few variants submitted. The question I failed to convey is if variants that simply replace an existing box with a different system will share the same SSD/page or will they be expected to occupy sepearate pages? An example of what I am trying to ask is the DGX/DLX SSD which could easily share the same SSD/page. If each little variant requires a seperate SSD then it would reduce my desire to see mundane variants.
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