Archive through March 15, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
First Generation X-ships:
X1R The X-ship R Module:
Archive through March 15, 2004
Tos,
Thank him for me. 
Let's talk maulers, shall we?
Here's an idea:
Backgeround - Maulers and X-batteries had a problem. Maulers did to X-batteries what they did to warp engines. As if this wasn't bad enough, shock ramped up alarmingly when the shingle-shot energy input passed much above 40.
The solution was that X-maulers were fitted with a dedicated capacitor network. The capacitor network was subdivided into 2-point banks for damage-sustainability. Each capacitor bank is destroyed on a single "battery" hit.
The capacitor system did not need to be fired on a bank by bank basis, however. The capacitors formed single pool of energy from which the mauler could draw power with precision.
The drawback was that the Mauler capacitors had to be disconnected from the reserve power network. Energy in the mauler capacitors is NOT considered reserve power for any purpose.
Energy can be moved between batteries and mauler capacitors (either direction) during the Initial Stage of the Impulse Activity Segment (6B1) and at no other time.
Energy moved to batteries cannot exceed the storage limit for those batteries. Same thing when moving energy to the mauler caps.
Energy may not be moved to or from the batteries in response to damage. 6B1 is the ONLY time energy can be moved to or from a mauler capacitor.
Note that any energy moved from the mauler capacitors to batteries is always considered non-warp.
Energy allocated to mauler capacitors is considered energy allocated to batteries for purposes of (D22.0 - Energy balance due to damage)
Here's my take on possible ship classes and possible counter numbers. I'm only posting this here so everyone can begin to see the general complexity involved.
DNX: I already posted my reasoning.
Races: Fed, Kli, Rom, Kzi, Gorn, Hyd, Lyr, ISC,
BCX: Basically the same reasoning as the DNX except that they MIGHT not be conjectural. Plus the fact that some races shouldn't have a DNX even as a Conjectural ship.
Races: Fed, Kli, Rom, Kzi, Gorn, Tho, Ori, Hyd, Lyr, WYN, ISC, LDR
XHDW: Basically the HDW took the place of many variant ships. They might not have been as effective but they could generally fulfill the same roll as whatever variant was needed. Prompting me to believe that cash strapped fleets may have been all for the concept.
Races: Fed, Kli, Rom, Kzi, Gorn, Tho, Ori, Hyd, Lyr, WYN, ISC, LDR, Selt
XPFT: A very useful and probable force multiplier ship IMO. It could also play as a limited Scout Cruiser.
Races: Fed, Kli, Rom, Kzi, Gorn, Tho, Ori, Hyd, Lyr, WYN, ISC, LDR, Selt
XTug/LTT: A ship that might be needed by the various navies. But most duties that a Tug preforms dont require the strategic speed of a full X ship. IMO they should remain as GW or XP ships. But assuming they are desired as a general purpose ship. (With appropriate pods they could fill almost any needed cruiser roll.) My picks for each race are included below in the race. But generally most races only used LTTs with the Feds Kli and Lyran (since theirs could also be used as a Survey cruiser.) using CA class tugs.
XPOL: I'm not really sure we need these. Becuase even if in the X era freighters have an F&E speed of 3hexes a POL can go 2x that. But since I always like more ships well....
Races: Fed, Kli, Rom, Kzi, Gorn, Hyd, Lyr, WYN, ISC,
Previous Published: Various ships that have been published elsewhere (CLs basically) but they should have a counter at least.
Specialty Ships: Some of the races have them some dont. These are mostly my picks not nessecarily anyone elses.
NCAX: Are not included below but there is precedent for such ships. (As per the Rom FHX and Gorn CMX) Races are only listed here and are not inluded in the below counts. Fed, Klink, Rom, Kzinti, Orion, Hydran, Lyran, WYN (with each having 2 counters. Base counter #+16
Races and counters are listed below. The Total counters are listed from the general ship suggestion/ then XTug/LTT then Pre Published and then my suggestions for specialty ships.
FED:
Ships: DNX, BCHX (2? SSDs for the BCGX and BCF X?), XHDW, XNHV/XPFT (2 SSDs), XPOL
XTug
Pre Pub: GVX CL#26, DGX CL#16,
Specialty Ships: DLX (plasma DDX), DEX (escort DDX) CLX ( CL Xised) with either a CVBX or NVSX (not both) since the Feds are a premier fighter race.
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2 (1each), XHDW: 3, XNHV/XPFT: 2 (1each) XPOL: 3
XTug: 1
Pre Pub: GVX:1 DGX: 3
Specialty: DLX: 3, DEX: 3, CLX: 2, CVX: 2
Totals: 11/+1/+4/+10
Klink:
Ships: DNX, BCHX, XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XTug
Pre Pub: D5XD CL#16
Specialty: D6SX (Cruiser Scout) DMX (Mauler X Ship conjectural)
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XTug: 1
Pre Pub: D5XD: 3
Specialty: DMX: 3, DSX: 3,
Totals: 11/+1/+3/+6
Rom:
Ships: DNX, BCHX (actually the KHX), XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: NHX (So Roms have a CR10 ship besides the KEX breakfast cereal) SMX (Modular SPX since the Roms came up with the modular ship idea.) FMX: Maybe a FH X Mauler
*Note: KR Conversions would be easy for anyone to do between the Klink XTug and DMX.
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XLTT: 1
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: NHX: 2, SMX: 3, FMX 1,
Totals: 11/+1/+0/+6
Gorn:
Ships: DNX, BCHX, XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: CSX THE CM R Plasma converted to X tech
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XLTT: 1
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: CSX: 2
Totals: 11/+1/+0/+2
Thol:
Ships: DNX, BCHX (DPW Xised) XHDW, XPFT,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: NCLX, NDDX, and the Archeo CX with all refits and note for (CPX Photon version maybe)
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: NCLX: 3, NDDX: 3, CX; 3
Totals: 8/+0/+0/+9
Ori:
Ships: BCHX, XHDW, XPFT,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: Maybe turn the BC into a BCX
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: BCX: 3
Totals: 8/+0/+0/+3
Hyd:
Ships: DNX, BCHX ( 2 SSDs ,maybe 1 combined+ 1 HB only), XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A (The FCX is only a FCR that transports StingerX Fighters it is not an X Ship)
Specialty: CVX of some kind with a DEX
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2 (1 each), XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: CVX: 2, DEX: 3
Totals: 11/+1/+0/+5
Lyran:
Ships: DNX, BCHX ( 2 SSDs, maybe 1 BCHX and 1 BCX), XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XTug
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: No idea
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2 (1 each), XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: No idea
Totals: 11/+1/+0/+0
WYN:
Ships: DNX, BCHX, XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: Maybe a couple of WYN modified XFFs or DDs
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2,
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: Maybe a couple of WYN modified XFFs or DDs 2 each
Totals: 8/+1/+0/+4
ISC:
Ships: DNX, XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT or maybe both?
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: No idea
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:2 (1 each), XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2, XPOL: 3
XLTT 1 (or Xtug?)
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: no idea
Totals: 11/+1/+0/+0
Selt:
Ships: DNX, BCHX, XHDW, XPFT,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: CX, CLX, DDX, FFX (I'm not sure some of this may have been published as SSDs elsewhere. Maybe in SFT)
Counters:
Ships: DNX:1, BCHX:1, XHDW: 3, XPFT: 2,
N/A
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: CX 2, CLX 2, DDX 2, FFX 2
Totals: 8/+0/+0/+8
Grand Totals
109/+8/+7/+53
I am personally nervous about BCX and HDWX classes.
I don't think we want to trump the CX just yet and HDWs can get to be obnoxious ships.
With 108 counters, that's like only 10-11 ships per race.
I dont particulary care for them myself. But the HDW is custom made to fill a lot of the support roles that a fleet would need.
I dont have the F&E book handy but IIRC they can even function for a number of Tug missions.
I can definetly live without the BCHX but included them for completeness sake. We could do a mix of DNX and BCHX ships. A race getting only 1 of them an not the other.
I say leave the CX the max for X1-ships and convert a handful of BCHs to BCHXP.
I tend to agree. Much as I don't like the idea of BCHX's and DNX's, if we have to have them, then let there be XP rules for them. X1 was pretty clear that the first BCH with X abilities was a second generation x-ship, not a first one.
I think that X-BCHs and X-DNs (whether they are conjectural or not) are a necessity. My reasoning is that not everyone plays within the bounds of established history. For those players it would be nice to flesh out the fleets with units that are heavier than a CX. Besides, X-BCHs and X-DNs could have a place with scenarios taking place in the Darwin's alternate future.
In regards to HDWX class ships, I think that they will fill the need for numerous CL/CW based variants with out filling up the SSD book.
I would post my own list of ship suggestions, but Kenneth's list is close enough to what I want. Though, I would like to see a drone bombardment variant for the Feds and Kzinti.
I would remind people the first generation ships have the X after the designator and second generation ships have it in front.
BCX = 1st gen-x
XBC = 2nd Gen-X
Absolutly no BCHX IMO. The rules state that is not possible, specifically, and when the hulls do go X those ships are 2nd generation.
A BCH-XP is a sub-class of 1st Gen-X IMO and therefore does not violate established parameters already laid out in the rules.
HDWX: If it's a new class, I could see it but not as a conversion. I have trouble seeing HDW's having room for XP. They are another example of a bloated ship class.
I agree. No BCHX, no HDNX.
I personlly am not inclined to create a SC3 ship more powerful than a race's existing CX.
You want more power, dig out a DNX. That's what it's there for.
I don't want to even see a DNX, and DN-XP would be tolerable but not a full DNX.
Loren,
I would remind people the first generation ships have the X after the designator and second generation ships have it in front.
BCX = 1st gen-x
XBC = 2nd Gen-X
A specific ship may be a BCX, we refer to cruisers with X tech as X-cruisers. It is not unreasonable in the context of X1 discussions to refer to an entire class of ships in this case x-heavy-battlecruisers as X-BCHs. Which is a little different than a XBCH, a specific ship and a X2-BCH, an entire class of starships.
Absolutly no BCHX IMO. The rules state that is not possible, specifically, and when the hulls do go X those ships are 2nd generation.
A BCH-XP is a sub-class of 1st Gen-X IMO and therefore does not violate established parameters already laid out in the rules.
I presume that your are going by the design notes in R0.200. If that is the case then you should also consider that player interest plays a part in this i.e. R0.200 is mutable if SVC deems that enough players want it. At this time there appears to be significant interest even if the designs are conjectoral.
Orman, that's why I suggest a couple of conjectural designs, notably DNXP, DNX, and BCHX (which under X-tech could probably be shortened to BCX). The SSDs would be produced but the designs would be conjectural for purposes of the Timeline.
I think the fleet's could afford a small handful of BCHXP conversions (no variants) which should roughly equal the CX's BPV. Look at it as a way the fleets can build a force of "pocket-CX" on the cheap.
Quote:I tend to agree. Much as I don't like the idea of BCHX's and DNX's, if we have to have them, then let there be XP rules for them. X1 was pretty clear that the first BCH with X abilities was a second generation x-ship, not a first one.
1) DNXs and BCHXs WILL make much better points to model X2 vessels from than DN(XP) and BCH(XP) vessels...so even if they are conjectual they would be handy.
2) X1 may have been clear that they were would be in X2 but was not clear if X2 would be X1R or X2.
That being said I don't see why we can't have a BCHX in X1R with a really high YIS and a matching BPV.
Quote:Absolutly no BCHX IMO. The rules state that is not possible, specifically, and when the hulls do go X those ships are 2nd generation.
I would like to have a BCHX...it'ld be just darn well fun...it'ld also be good for balancing against some other pretty meaty ships ( like DNHs ) in part of an X squardon Vs GW Fleet Duel.
That being said I don't mind if the vessel is simply listed as CONJECTUAL but I think it should be in X1R.
Quote:no HDNX.
HDNX would be cool for playtesting the (probably) purely conjectual XDN (maybe) But I think we can just leave it out of X1R. DNX is a totally different story.
Orman: Any rule is mutable but this is highly unlikely. FOr instance, just recently there was interest about X-fighters. Players were wanting them. Steve found it nessasary to chime in and make clear that the only X-Fighter is the Stinger-X and that was final.
A really big part of the SFU is it's internal consistancy. Mistakes have been made and corrected but only as a last resort.
Unltimately, however, I made those statements based on my own oppinions. I feel that was regardless of R0 though R0 is existing rules and they are then worthy of consideration.
As far as the naming convention goes what I posted was to help. That convention is a very old establishement and to not use it can cause confusion. If you want your post to be fully understandable by all I recomend using that convention established by ADB. Otherwise we could end up in debates where neither side understands the other.
Orman, wouldn't you agree that it would be better if we all speak the same language? Please don't take offense, I was only trying to help.
Kenneth Jones:
Regarding your list posted on 2:01 PM 14 March. There are a couple of problems with the Tholian fleet. The first is that you give them an "XHDW", but the Tholians don't have an HDW to begin with. Is this intended to be a completely new design? Second, you give them an NDDX, but all NDDs were destroyed long before X-tech becomes available. Is this a conjectural design?
Suggestion: Dump the XHDW and NDDX. If the Tholians need a better X-destroyer (their DDX actually only has the firepower of an X-frigate) make it a completely new design but not an HDW (which doesn't fit in that well with the Tholian fleet). Note that since about two decades pass between the introduction of X1 and X2, there is plenty of time for all the races to have new design X1 ships.
You also have a CX on your list for the Tholians. The Tholians already have two X-ships based on the C-hull, the CCX and the CPX. There just aren't that many C-hulls around and it doesn't make sense for the Tholians to introduce another variant on that hull that is less caopable than what they already have. If they had lots of C-hulls, and if conversion to a CX was likely to be substantially quicker or cheaper than conversion to a CCX, the CX would make sense. But I submit neither of those is true.
Suggestion: Replace the CX with an X-version of the CWH and CHP from Module R5. When other races got New Heavy Cruisers, the Tholians got these improved Light Cruisers instead. The text in R5 already says that the CWH has increased structural reinforcement relative to the CW and that CWH production eventually supplanted most CA production. I therefor submit that the CWHX and CHPX make more sense than a CX based on the C-hull.
Orman: Any rule is mutable but this is highly unlikely. FOr instance, just recently there was interest about X-fighters. Players were wanting them. Steve found it nessasary to chime in and make clear that the only X-Fighter is the Stinger-X and that was final.
A really big part of the SFU is it's internal consistancy. Mistakes have been made and corrected but only as a last resort.
Loren, while I agree consistency in the SFU is important, I don't think changes to R0.200 is going to cause much of a problem considering the post doomsday publication and subsequent revision of the X-ship rules. After all there is no provision in the X-rules currently for XP, does that mean we should not pursue that concept?
As far as the naming convention goes what I posted was to help. That convention is a very old establishement and to not use it can cause confusion. If you want your post to be fully understandable by all I recomend using that convention established by ADB. Otherwise we could end up in debates where neither side understands the other.
The de facto convention already exists, trying to get others to refer to an entire class of ships by a designation that is generally used for a specific ship is confusing. I don't think anyone is going to mistake the designation X-BCH with a X2 heavy-battlecruiser.
Alan,
The XHDW was mostly a place holder. Robert asked for his email if we should do Modular ships for SC3,4. Presumably based on the HDW.
A Modular SC4 unit would be the best way to go IMO. With the Roms able to do a SC3 Modular ship as well. Since they came up with the idea in the first place.
Good catch RE: The Tholian CX. I forgot about the them completely.
Drone Bombardment:
The Klingons and Kzinti both have DB ships already published. The D5DX and CDX respectively.
Counter shortage: If we limit a race to a BCHX or DNX (conjectural or not) then they need to have only 1 such counter. And not the 1,2 that I suggested for the major races. That will free up nearly a dozen counter slots.
BTW: The WYN listing is for Fish ships. With the specialty ships being a Klink/Lyran/Kzinti.
But my reasoning on the DNX and BCHX was as listed above. - People want BIG ships. Maybe not to play with everyday but the desire is there. Look at the various BBs that have been published. (Even though they are purely conjectural.)
I know for a fact that I applied the X Refit to DNs and BCs myself any number of times, just for the fun of seeing how they would handle.
does that mean we should not pursue that concept?
Of course not. That would have nothing to do with keeping with the long used naming convention. SVC laid out that convention. If you want others and SVC to understand your intention without having to explain it every time then I recommend the old convention.
Of course you are free to try to change it, I was just tying to help. Do what you want.
The LDR were destroyed by the Andros so we won't need any counters for them.
"WYN:
Ships: DNX, BCHX, XHDW, XPFT, XPOL
XLTT
Pre Pub: N/A
Specialty: Maybe a couple of WYN modified XFFs or DDs"
The WYN are an interesting case. What the heck are the WYN going to do with an X-ship after the war of return (Y186)? They don't need the strategic advantages so I would think they would build very few X ships and focus more on XP. I can see no need for even a conjectural ships of the type listed. I can see the WYN being the driving force behind advanced freighters.
For what it's worth, a Klingon D6DX would be fun.
Actually now that I think about, if you take a Klingon DX and replace the wing Phaser pairs with Special Sensor Pairs yyou build a really nice GSX...maybe the Disruptors should be replaced with G-racks as well.
Quote:The LDR were destroyed by the Andros so we won't need any counters for them
The Andro Invasion was from 188 to 205... I suspect the LDR had one or two other X-designs fielded during those years.
Quote:The WYN are an interesting case.
True, they probably don't need a large number of new X-ships. However, I don't believe SVC would this publish a module without at least 2 or 3 WYN designs. He tries to get as many races as possible in to ensure that the fans of all the races get something (the Andros being the sole exception). Note that even the Seltorians... who were destroyed before the Andro Invasion began in earnest... and who never developed X-ships... are going to get some designs.42
The fact that there is almost always a couple of ships for every race is good enough to justify WYN and LDR CJ ships IMO.
Also The main reason to have Seltorian X Ships (conjectural) is simply so fans of the Selts can get something of their own. But since there are no Selt X weapon rules we might not need them after all. I was trying to be as inclusive as possible in my listing.
BTW: I found that there was a Klingon E3X published in SFT#33 but until it gets republished I don't think we need to worry about it.
Kenneth Jones: SVC noted earlier that he wanted Seltorian designs. I believe we will see their basic ships (CX, CLX?, DDX, FFX?) in X1R, so part of the X1R rulebook will probably be reserved from Seltorian X-rules.
I've already posted a long list of what I would like to see in X1R, but this included some designs I made for each race. I will try and post a more "generic" listing today sometime.42