Tholians are unique and deserve a special place for thier ideas. Lets talk history, weapons, web and ships here.


Quick web idea.

Instant Cast Web (firing option): Halves the time and strength but solidifies the next impulse.

By Charles E. Leiserson, Jr. (Bester) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I always kind of liked the idea of disruptors that can fire through web. Maybe with an energy surcharge, if it seems to powerful. Or it causes a +1 shift to the die roll that can't be negated except by a full -1 shift (ie. it isn't just ECM to be countered).

Or how about casting globular web? At least the enemy has a chance to accelerate out of it, emergency decel, or maneuver to be trapped but not stuck. This may or may not require multiple ships.

Hmmm... web from two ships may be cast into adjoining hexes if the casters are fired on the same impulse and both ships are on the same side? This unfortunately has the problem of an unavoidable web cast all the way across the map. I dunno.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Web Bunker:

This device is typically used an emergency alternative to the WW. It is as much maneuver as it is an addition to web technology.

To deploy the Web Bunker the ship must be moving speed 0 (can use tactical maneuvers). This can be achieved by Emergency deceleration. The ship then makes a 360° HET (alternative is to tac warp. see below). The ship must make this full turn facing in the same direction it started (only the declaration is needed. No need to actually move the counter). This uses the full HET rules (i.e. rolls for breakdown or uses bonus etc.) During the 'spin' one of the ships web devices lays a small globular web around ship(s).

Alternatively, the ship could lay the Web Bunker using six Tac-Warp maneuvers over the period of a turn. The web would solidify the impulse after the 6th maneuver. Five Warp-Tacs and one Sub-light Tac would work as well.

Unfortunately the system does not work for bases but they have other means of protection.

Web Bunkers cannot be laid in or adjacent to a hex containing web of any kind, including other Web Bunkers.

Any number of ships may be inside voluntarily (including enemy ships if present). No ship can be forced to be inside at the start (though there would be means of using tractors like with any other web). The size of the web is less than zero so non-Tholian ships may pass through the hex unimpeded. Ships may voluntarily enter the web (and be caught) and must declare so. Use the standard web rules regarding entering the web and escaping.

The energy required and strength of the web is determined by using the first column on the Web Caster table. The resulting web IS globular and IS free standing. It can be reinforced and does lose strength at the normal Globular web rate.

Any seeking weapons (SW) targeted on ships inside the web shield become caught and do not strike the target until one of three things happens:

1) The web dissipates enough for the SW to pass through. Note:**

2) The SW accumulates enough movement points to pass through. Note:**

3) The target moves in the direction of the SW. The SW strikes the target during movement but before actually moving into the next hex. Tactical Movement does not count here.
3a) If a ship that is protected by a WW moves through a SW the SW will remain targeted on the WW provided the ship does nothing to void said WW.

** The SW strikes the target on movement phase the next impulse (whether the SW moves or not).

Tholian ships can move in and out of these Web Shields at will. A counter should be provided. Web Shields can remain up indefinitely so long as they are reinforced.

The idea is that the ship spines out a globular web approximately 2000 KM in diameter to protect it's self and perhaps a few other ships. SW would get stuck in this web and the ship could then deal with them over time or leave the web. Tholians could set up several Web "Bunkers" on a map and might be allowed one Web Bunker per ship at WS3.



I think I'll sbmit this on it's own.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 07:43 pm: Edit

I always thought that the Tholians should have developed the tech to build larger hulls without welding smaller hulls together by the time X2 begins. It would be interesting if they could contruct base hulls in the destroyer to light cruiser size range with CAs and larger being composite hulls.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Oooh, ya, **CLICK**!

Build a 50% larger PC hull* then add two PC hulls to the sides for a sort of tri-hull XCA or XCM.

*This hull would be the base for the XDD and would be expanded like the PC to DD operation to make the CL.

A really cool XCC might have two XDD in the old CA style but with a Neo-Style Command Module up front and between them.

Jeeze Orman, I think you inspired my whole line of X2 Tholian hulls!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Loren:

Instant Cast Web has the potential to be an absolute game breaker. The effect of this weapon will be that (with a few qualifications) the Tholian's opponents will have to maintain a speed of 11 or less, since otherwise the Tholians can force the enemy ships to roll for breakdown almost at will. Even at half strength and assuming an X2 webcaster can not hold any more energy than X1, the Tholians can still do this at a range of 30. The half duration is also meaningless since the breakdown roll comes during the impulse the deceleration occurs. Ships with multiple HET bonuses (Nimble ships, X-ships) may be able to operate at high speed till those are gone. But this capability will be lethal against GW-era Dreadnoughts and Battleships, most of which have a chance of breaking down even with the HET bonus and have a 50% or better chance of breaking down once the HET bonus is gone. Reducing the time for a web to solidify from 4 impulses to 3 might be workable. I've played around a little with that and haven't come to any definite conclusions. But taking it below 3 impulses is just too lethal against GW ships and is seriously dangerous even against X-ships.

I think your web bunker is more promising and might be made to work with some tweaks.

Charles E. Leiserson:

Casting Globular Web also has the potential to break the game, depending on how the rules are defined. Globular web is anchored (but see below), therefor under the rules it should solidify instantly. This runs into a problem similar to Loren's. However the saving grace for cast globular web might be that you can't cast it strong enough to force a breakdown roll. If a) two webcasters cannot combine in the casting and b) an X2 webcaster can hold a maximum of 7 (or less) energy points (X1 holds 6) then you can't cast a globular web at any strength greater than 11 (strength 12 is the minimum that can force a breakdown role). But if either a) or b) above is false, than the Tholians are back in the position of being able to force unavoidable breakdown rolls too easily.

One other possibility would be to make a specific ruling that a cast globular web requires 4 impulses to solidify even though it is technically anchored. The ordinary rules for casting anchored web require physical anchors (asteroids, Tholian ships, etc.) and the X2 rules might simply be written to state that casting a self-anchored web requires the same 4 impulses to solidify as free standing web. This would still leave this as a powerful capability, but it might not be a game breaker.

All of this will require a lot of playtesting. The Tholians are like the Andromedans in that their capabilities are sufficiently outside the normal parameters that they are intrinsically hard to balance.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Alan: You're probably right. It was just a top of the head example for getting the thread going.

To all: Best to forget the Instant Cast Web idea.

The Web Bunker is pretty difficult to deploy, either requiring one of your HETs or sitting still for a ~32 impulses. THis is why I submitted the idea as a non-X2 thing. Might work well for late war of ISC war.

Helps the Tholians in open space best.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Loren,

Yeah, I was thinking of including Comm Modules.



[Edit. Never post and watch TV at the same time.]

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Loren:

Suggestion on Web Bunker idea - only ships with snares or webcasters can use this. Ships that only have standard web generators cannot. (By the X2 era, all Tholian ships with web generators will have been refitted with snares. But if you're going to submit this as something available during the ISC Pacification, I think that restriction should be added as there might still be some GW-era ships wandering around that haven't been refitted.)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Ships can't perform HETs more than 180 degrees.

Now two Hets on two Impulses...an X2 ship can probably do that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Alan: That naturally fits and would be the case if either of the following doesn't apply.

It could be limited to Web Caters only but I don't think that is needed. So allowing Web Snares to do it would be fine. It also could be a refit if there needs to be a BPV cost associated with it. Call it Snare+ perhaps. I suspect that there doesn't need to be a BPV cost and having it commonly available wouldn't be unbalancing given:
1) Its inherent difficulty to employ (using an HET or sitting at Speed 0 for a long time and the power cost) seems self balancing.
2) And it should be introduced as a late Era technology.


MJC: The rules limit HETs to 180° for simplification given that any turn beyond 180° is pointless since the HET can go either direction no matter the circumstance.

I am aware of the line in the rule you refer to.

However, obviously for the purpose of THIS rule the ship spins 360° because there is actually a point to. Also, if a techno babble reason is needed we can say it a proprietary technology that can only be done at speed zero.

Requiring two HET's would kill the entire rule. The Web Bunker isn't THAT useful.

Well, as a last ditch effort to escape a major wave of drones yes, anything is worth it but I had hoped to make it more useful than a 1 in 100 games tactic.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:15 am: Edit

WHy would it kill the rule?

I see it se 6 TACs costing 6 points of movement and a pair of Hets costing 10 but doing it in a far shorter period of time.

We could make a rule that one WEB BUNCKER HET can use the one HET BONUS for both HETs so long as A they are close enough in time together and B in the same direction, clockwise/anticlockwise in order to not blow both bonuses.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 01:55 am: Edit

Well, even with only using just one HET bonus the energy cost is too high. I want smaller ships to be able to do this and there is a good chance it will have to be done with all reserve power. 10 points of HET'ing plus the energy to power the web it too much.

Ships wont be able to use it often so there isn't danger of too many bunkers. Though it would make Fleet actions interesting.

I wonder if adding a Colateral damage clause for seeking weapons when multiple units are inside a Web Bunker together would be in order.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Stealing an idea from SPP: how about seeking web? Treat like an EPT except it creates a cocoon trapping a ship for a given amount of time. The ship can't move or shoot while trapped but is otherwise undamaged.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Adding to that: for each point of damaged scored against the web torpedo it loses one impulse of trap time. Or some such formula. Would only phasers be able to do damage like a plasma or could anything do damage?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Back somewhere in the X-Files I had proposed a function of the Web Fist called Sticky Web Fist. It is armed and fired just like Web Fist but does no damage. It does stick to the ship and slow it down depending on the energy.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit

In the propasals thread there is some talk going on about Tholians for X2; thought I'd redirect things here. Alan Trevor brought up the notion that perhaps X2 Tholians will be a purely web/phaser combination, with no heavies. That got me to thinking. I am playing with a concept for an X2 PC right now, and will get around to posting it later, but suffice it to say it fits with the proposed stuff I've posted recently (phaser-x, warp capacitors, regenerating shields, etc.) Anyone that wants a peek let me know; I'll send it to you when it's done.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit

I would like to note that a ship equipped purely with phasers has very poor long ranged reach. They would be picked apart by there foes with longer ranged weapons.

Yes, web around stations and lots of phasers are hard to deal with. But such a combination would have the Tholians easilly pinned down in their own web, unable to strike back at an enemy force at range. Who in turn could strike at them as soon as they poke their heads out.

Ultimately, you could post a force outside a station and then by pass that station to attack deeper into the Holdfast. There would be no need to destroy the Border Stations. It is a mistake to believe that the THolians do not need heavy weapons when defending a base. Sure it works well enough for one scenario where the stations destruction is the goal. But it fails in the big picture.

I believe the French once made this mistake, no?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Well, I have an idea about that, which is part of my plan to give Alan's idea some life. Basically, it relies on using the phaser-x I made up, which can do decent damage if fired as a group. At range 26-50, assuming no EW shift, a grouping of four P-X's would average four points of damage. That's better than four disruptors would do at range 40. It isn't quite as good as a volley of proxie photons would be, but it isn't bad, either. I know this may not make much sense, since I haven't posted the rules for the phaser-x seperately from the whole proposal and that it hasn't been read by everyone, but this situation wouldn't be that bad for the Tholians.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 12:36 am: Edit

One point of clarification if I may - I was not arguing that the Tholians should not have any heavy weapons at all in X2. My most coherent posting on the subject is the 5:28 PM one on 23 March in the X-files/Integrated Proposals thread (my previous posting on the same thread being something of a rant) and I was arguing about what type of heavy weapons they should have, and why.

Basically I suggested two alternatives. The first was that the Tholians continue to retain disruptors/photons but at the X1 tech level because their Weapons R&D had concentrated on improving phasers and webcasters.

The second, somewhat more radical, proposal was that although the Tholians were never able to mass produce webcasters they eventually developed the ability to mass produce a direct-fire-only webfist. Under this proposal, Tholian cruisers would carry a mix of true webcasters and direct-fire-only webfists as their heavy weapons (XCL - one webcaster and two webfists, XCC - two webcasters and two webfists) while the destroyer would carry two webfists as heavy weapons. The only pure phaser boat I proposed for X2 was the XFF, as an updated Patrol Corvette.

It was never my intent to suggest that the Tholian fleet as a whole should lack heavy weapons, only that those ships designated for a base defense role ought to be pure phaser boats.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 07:08 am: Edit

Oh, I know that; but the idea of them focusing more on phasers than other stuff is an intriguing one. Here's a rough first draft on an XPC:

R7.?? Tholian 2X Patrol Cruiser

Phasers only, but a mix; phaser-x's for mid to long range and defense, and a pair of phaser-1's for closer range heavy punch.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 08:55 am: Edit

Shouldn't that be Patrol Corvette? ⁴²

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 09:13 am: Edit

The Tholian PC is indeed "Patrol Corvette".

Mike, that's not bad as a concept for what I had been calling an XFF. I'm not sure about the BPV, but since so many of the X2 rules have not (at least, as far as I know) been playtested all X2 BPV have to be regarded as highly speculative and subject to change.

I'm also working on some ideas for what X2 webcasters and snares should be like, but I'm not ready to post them yet. My first idea for the X2 webcaster turned out, after some some (solitary) playtesting to be way to powerful against GW-ships and I had to jettison it. If I can get the bugs worked out on my ideas for X2 casters and snares I'll post them in the X2 Tholians thread so others can examine them.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 11:01 am: Edit

Alan: It can be helpful to post what doesn't works so it isn't repeated. Care to give us a short version of what it was and why it failed?

The value being you actually play tested it.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 11:13 am: Edit

I'm not sure about the BPV, either. I did playtest ships with similar systems, but not one that size, and never anything like a new web caster.