L-torp carronade:

If X1R is to have new ships, why can't some of the Gorn ships in that SSD book have L-torps?

There may only be one ship in Module X1 that has L-torps, but that doesn't mean we can't create others.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Excelent point Jeff. We should all smack our selfs upside the head for not seeing such an obvious thing.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

The answer is that they already have S-torps and they would be in the unenviable position of having to trade firepower for the carronade. that doesn't make sense.

We're having trouble because X1 ships are later than the carroande's introduction but the designs don't account for it.

I say let torps up to the S carronade and be done with it.

Or blow off all the limits and let all Gorn X-plasmas carroande and let anybody's L-torps carroande.

It's the Gorn "special thing" Let's let them make the most of it.

I have no access to playtest data, which could well suggest that this is a Bad Thing. Comment from anyone in the know?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 04:09 pm: Edit

I don't see why new X designs could be made with L-Torps. Many have type S with F refits. COnvert those directly to M+L.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

That means they lose out on trading up to M+S, which the Gorn CX did.

This is exactly what I mean when I refer to "trading firepower for the carroande."

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

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Quote:

If X1R is to have new ships, why can't some of the Gorn ships in that SSD book have L-torps?

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Quote:

We're having trouble because X1 ships are later than the carroande's introduction but the designs don't account for it.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I added the Gorn Carronade Battle Destroyer (BDCX) to the list. Don't know what it looks like, but it sounds cool.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:53 am: Edit

John: That would be the case for CX size vessels but for smaller ones 2xM + 2xS might be too much for the hull. The might has one or two S and two L. X1 didn't have many L carrying ships but X1R can. They would probably be the smaller than CX hulls and XP units.

The way I worded my last post didn't express what I meant too well, sorry.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 09:03 am: Edit

This still leaves the question of whether the X-carronade should be Gorn-only.

To recap - the carronade rules as written apply only to F-torps, i.e. ships for which the actual box on the SSD is marked as an F-torp. So under the rules as they stand on 22 March 2004, no Gorn X-ship can carronade, though I believe an Orion X-ship could do so by putting an F-torp in an option mount. Extending the carronade capability to the L-torp seems to me a "no-brainer" and as far as I can tell everyone supports this. Whether a heavier torp (which can download as an L-torp) can carronade is more controversial and I don't think we have concensus on this.

But would an carronade L-torp (which everyone seems to support) be Gorn only? I note that Tholians and Kzinti can't use UIM on their GW-tech ships but can use it on their X-ships. A similar logic might be used to allow Romulans to carronade on their X-ships, though it is of less value to them than to the Gorns. And what about Orions? Or what about Feds if they get a DDLX?

My personal preference is Gorn only. Hand-wave that the Orions were never able to extend the capability to their L-torps due to increased Gorn information security after the original capability was lost. An X-Orion who wants to carronade can still put an F-torp in the option mount. If he puts an L-torp in, he gains a longer ranged torpedo but loses carronade capability. And the Feds? Because the Gorns were more concerned about protecting that information necessary to carronade L-torps, they never shared the capability with the Feds. That at least would be my preference, but others will likely disagree. But who all can use an X-carronade does need to be worked out.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

Re: Carronade. My preference would be Gorn only, and yes, allow the L torp to use it. I like keeping it as a special Gorn-only toy.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

As an alternate to the above, that may be simpler and make more sense - everyone can carronade L-torps but only the Gorns can carronade heavy torps downloaded as Ls. This still leaves the Gorns a unique capability and may require a bit less technobabble to justify. For one thing, the only race the Gorns might willingly share the tech with would be the Feds, and I am not aware of any proposals that would give the Feds a ship with a torp heavier than a type-L.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Alan,

According to the rules from Module R10, you can fire a Gorn F-torp in catronade mode on any turn of arming. "downloaded as a L" makes no sense on te first or second turn of arming.

Also the carronade does not do plasma bolt damage.

The carronade damage chart is roughly similar to a range-1 P-3 chart that you can get 5 damage on a roll of a 1 with.

The way a (gorn) plasma fires is carronade function is to total the arming energy in the launcher. The first point of power goes to creating the damage table and any additional arming energy adds a flat +1 to damage.

That said, allowing the carroande to effectively use no more than 5 or 7 points of power (for a max damage of table+4 or table+6) might be a good compromise solution.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:45 am: Edit

John:

Yes, I understand all this. The question is whether the carronade rules need to be changed to account for L-torps. And if so, what should the new rules be? As I remarked earlier, as of now Gorn X-ships cannot carronade because it is F-torp only and no Gorn X-ship carries an F-torp. So does this situation remain constant or does X1R change the carronade rules?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Can an L-torp be fired as an F-torp? If so, then let the Gorn fire an L as an F if they want to carronade. Best of both worlds.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Would it make a difference? The L-Torp is the same as an F-torp but with G-torp range.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:09 pm: Edit

I think an L is the same as the G in all respects except arming cost. I know they do the same damage.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

IIRC, L-torp has the same damage-at-range and arming costs as a G-torp. But the L-torp cannot shotgun or envelope. Also, an L-torp in an L-torp launcher can be held for zero holding energy. If a heavy torp launcher is downloaded as L and held, the launcher does have to pay holding costs. All that is from memory, so don't take it as written in stone.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

The differtence is that an armed L-torp has 7 points of power in the launcher.

The damage would be Table+6. Max F-torp damage is Table+4

2/3 of the time, what type of plasma you are arming the torp as shouldn't make a difference unless you are saying that the only time a X-plasma can carronade is when it's being armed as a F-torp, which doesn't seem to make sense.


Review of Options:

Keep current rules: F-torps only carronade, which pretty much buries the system.

L-torps only carronade, which I dislike because it freezes most published Gorn X-ships ou of their own weapon, or forces them to take inferior variants that trade heavier S-torps for L-torps to get the carronade ability.

F through S torps Carronade, which I like because it doesn't run into the potential problem of too many carronades going off every turn.

Limited Carroande for all torps #1:
Torps may only carronade if downloaded as a L-type torp. First question: what about first and second-turn arming of torps? Carronading only when armed as a F-torp is a little limiting as X-torps don't normally load as F-torps.

Limited Carroande for all torps #2: Doesn't matter how much energy is in the plasma launcher, damage is capped at Table+X. Either Table+4 (max F-torp damage) or Table+6 (Max L-torp damage)

Carronade for All Torps: All torps carronade at full damage level. I am concerned that this might be too powerful, and the question then becomes: what about shotguns and envelopers? Does the additional energy add to Carroande damage? (My vote would be no, same as plasma bolts)


Separate but related question is whether plasmas carronade for everybody. If the Gorns have some method of carronading all torps then I'd be OK with limited carronades for non-lateral L-torps on Rom and ISC units. Otherwise no.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:44 pm: Edit

My personal preference, FWIW, would be something like this:

All races can carronade L-torps (indicated as L-torp on SSD). They can carronade on the first turn of arming for 2 energy points (damage=Table+1) or on a subsequent turn with appropriate damage increase, but damage is always capped at Table+6.

The ISC can carronade rear firing L-torps, but only one per turn regardless of target size. Additional rear firing torps can be launched or bolted at small targets under the standard restrictions.

Gorns only can carronade larger torpedos but regardless of energy, damage can never exceed Table+6. That damage cap is absolute.

These rules would allow all plasma X-ships some carronade capability (similar to Kzin/Tholians getting UIM for their X-ships) but would still allow the Gorns to do things the other races cannot. For example, a Gorn CCX, CMX, or HDX could carronade but a Romulan FHX or SPX could not.

Note also that although damage is capped at Table+6 for all races, non-Gorns could only get this damage with two-turn arming. But the Gorns could do it every turn by fastloading an S or M-torp as an L-torp in a single turn. The damage/power ration is not as efficient for large torpedo carronades, but if the situation called for it the Gorns could generate more carronade firepower than anyone else.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

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F through S torps Carronade, which I like because it doesn't run into the potential problem of too many carronades going off every turn.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I prefer the second option where L-Torps only carronaid.

New ships wont all get M+S torps so I don't think there will be a trade out problem. The current Gorn X-Ships aren't designed to hunt cloak so their designs not having L-Torps makes perfect sense.

However, there could be a later variant of the Gorn CX and others that has a L-Torp replacement for the S-Torps...two each! That would total out to 2xM and 4xL. Ultimately that would be one fearsom ship!

Other smaller ships can be designed with 1xM and 2xL. Still other small ships would have only L-Torps. Truely, these little ships would be real monsters! Consider a BDXL with four L-torps. How fast and dangerous would that unit be?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:07 pm: Edit

I can certainly live with the option that only Gorns can carronade their L-torps. I'm not convinced a carronade-version of the CCX is likely, but I could certainly see that for the HDX and smaller. Note that Orion X-ships will still be able to carronade by putting an F-torp in an option mount. But they pay for this by mounting a short-range torpedo that will be less useful than an L-torp under many circumstances.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Nasty new Plasma X2 proposal in the X2 Plasma Thread.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Alan,

Figure if the L-torp carronades, the Orions will get it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

John:

I regret to say you're probably right. I'ld like to see an L-carronade remain Gorn only, but don't know if that line will hold. The other question is what happens if the Feds get a DDLX?