So, after 20 year of having to opperate in mixed fleets the Tholians would be interested in making sure those fleet involving their ships have the highest potential of success?

Tholians are capable of moving through their web with impunity and this is central to their opperations. If they could move through web, even cast web, they would be hampered to the point of web being almost useless. Certainly useless for defense. This is the very problem they face when opperating in a mixed fleet. And they must opperate this way at times to survive. If they didn't they wouldn't have. (They certainly didn't ally with the galactics out of the goodness of their hot crystal hearts).

They have to see the logic that it is probable they will need to ally with other races again, most likely with the Feds against the Klingons (from their PoV the Klingons still hate them and want their territory back, but will actually be the Xorks whom they must fight against).

Perhaps they would create such a device but not use it until some major catastophy like the Xork invasion. Then again they might sit the Xork war out. I'm willing to bet it's the Tholian entrance in the fight against the Xorks that stops the on slaught of their invasion. But that is an issue for another day (long time from now).

Though, you know, they put web anchors around bases so that they can lower sections of web for cargo ships and the like. This device would be very useful for that.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Actually the concept is pretty basic. If the Tholians desire an "ally" to pass through they can allow it using the device. The Tholians control who can and can't pass through. If the Tholian ship with the device is destroyed (or the device is destroyed from H&R) nobody but Tholians can pass through.

Loren, is this a Tholian X1 system?

BTW: Web Torpedo thing not ready yet. Will post later this week.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 01:10 am: Edit

No X2.

I think it has the potential to disrupt the current X1 timeline. It would be the center of a fundamental change in allied tactics.

But such a change would have little affect on unwritten history. Indeed, the Tholians would return to being as reclusive as they can be, but still, things have changed. They have never, and I mean not ever, been allies with an equal or greater power. The Selts were a subject race that revolted. The SFU history is different from anything they've delt with before. 20+ years is a long time to fight at together an not have some change in attitude.

Indeed, I could imagin even the Klingons rethinking their stance.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Okay I'm just about to do a PCS move (with a little TAD thrown in) so I'm going to be phasing out of the loop over the week and weekend. I have the Tholian Web Torpedo idea nearly ready but it probably won't be completely ready until closer to the following weekend. However, here's a teaser:

(XFPbn1.0) THOLIAN WEB TORPEDO
In Y190 the Tholians developed an advanced web technology weapon based on Gorn plasma torpedo technology. This weapon chases its target and on impact causes damage by crashing its target to a dead stop. It also prevents weapons fire and other functions. The weapon has a powerful effect on enemy movement.
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(XFPbn1.33) DAMAGE PROCEDURE: When a Web Torpedo impacts it envelops its target and the torpedo energy converts to web of strength equal to the warhead strength on impact, which reduces according to [rule]. The web is anchored by the target and produces damage and other effects during the “Damage During Movement Stage” (6A3). This web “crashes” the target unit to a dead stop.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit

I have been recently considering the what phaser arrangements the Tholians would utilize in X2. It occurred to me that they might prefer to have more Ph-1s than Ph-5 due to the nature of Tholian tactics. Does anyone have an opinion?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

How so? A tholian phaser that fires through web loses a specific number of damage points per phaser, based on distance to the web. More smaller phasers = more damage reduction.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

I am not as experienced with Tholian tactics, I assumed that webs would have the effect of reducing the range at which combat takes place. At shorter ranges most PH-5 proposals may not be as optimal as the PH-1s they would replace. Thus, I want to get a few opinions about the Tholians phaser suites, before I progress in my X2 proposal.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

For a Tholian a Ph-5 would be substantially better, for a non-Tholian it makes little difference and neither can fire through web.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Here's some brain storming.

What if the Tholians in the X2 period developed a new form of Pinwheel called the tholian tridant, that allowed the unit to move at warp speeds and face the same directions.

The ships hook together in an array filling spots of forward, centre , rear, left and right.
The formation does not need to have rear but if it does the rear ship connects to the trident facing rare.
The formation does not need to have a forward postion.
The formation does not need to have left and right positions but both left and right positions must be varrients of eachother and the formation must have both a left and a right to function, if the left or right is destroyed in battle then the opposite vessel is dropped from the formation.
The formation does not need a centre vessel but if it doesn't then the only formaion that can be made is a left and right ship conecting together.

The centre ship must have the same or higher MC than the other ships in the formation.

The Trident bonds together in some ways like a pinwheel although all the vessels are facing in the same direction. This allows the trident to move at warp speed ( having the MC of the total of all ships and the movement generated by all the warp boxes active in moving the trident.

The centre ship shall take damage as the centre hull and centre warp on the dac.
The forward ship shall take damage on the forward hull and centre warp on the DAC.
The rear ship shall take damage as the rear hull and centre warp on the DAC.
The Left vessel shall take damage on the Left Warp and Centre Hull on the DAC whilst the Right vessel shall take damage on as Right Warp Engine and centre hull.

The Connected Hulls will reduce the firing arcs of the unit.
• A Rear vessel can not fire through it's rear arc, also the centre vessel will be unable to fire through the RA arc and the Left vessel will be unable to fire through it's RR arc whuilst a Right vessel would be unable to fire through it's LR arc.
• A Left vessel would be unable to fire through it's RS arc whilst forcing the centre vessels to be unable to fire through the LR & L arcs arc.
• A Right vessel would be unable to fire through it's LS arc whilst forcing the centre vessel to be unable to fire through it's RR & R arcs arcs.
• A Forward vessel would be unable to fire through the RA arc & unable to fire through the RH arc if there are left and right vessels and would force the Centre vessel to be unable to fire through the FA arc, the Left Vessel to be unable to fire through the RF arc and the right vessel to be unable to fire through the LF arc.


The turn mode of the trident is increased.
The turn mode of the trident shall be the worst turn mode of all of the ships but shall extent the turnmode of by the following modifiers.
• If there is one or more other vessel that has the same turn mode, the turn mode distances are increased by one.
• If there is both a centre ship and left & right ships then there is a +1 to the tur mode numbers.
• There is a blanket +1 to the turn mode number for forming a trident.

A trident can not disengage by accelleration whilst formed into a trident. The ships can seperate at warp speeds but risk break down.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

If they could do that, why build anything larger than a PC?

Need a CA? Dock two or three.

Need a DN? Dock five

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 01:54 am: Edit

Well for starters the firing arcs of the centre vessel are considerable retarded so building a CA or DN from the word go work better than trying to build them from PCs locked together.

Also since you can put a higher MC vessels in the centre slot, you build CAs so that slotting on four PCs as well gives you a better unit than a five PC trident.

I was thinking that this would be a particularly powerful idea and thus ought be the only improvement of the Tholians in the X2 period.
I don't think it would completely destroy the development of DNs and the like but would change them in that the pinwheel in the form of the trident would be much more effective.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

The Neo-Tholians already had the technology to merge a fully functional command module to a rear hull. When seperated each functions as a fully functional ship.

This idea would be similar, and I like the premise. I do think it needs to be limited to prevent them from creating monsters (at least until the Xork arrive).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 01:15 pm: Edit

It is interesting to note that this is pretty close to the way SVC has described how Xork ships work.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

I like this idea (for what it's worth). Interesting, different from the way everyone else is going, and gets around the Tholian inability to manufacture Neo ships.

I too think it needs some limits though (CA + 4xPC would be too much)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I like the idea as a supplemental ability for Tholians, but not as the main focus of their X2 technology. The problem as I see it is that it creates these behemoths that have very poor manueverability, which is very "un-Tholian".

The Tholians are arguably the second most manueverable Alpha Sector race, trailing only the Orions. (The Andros don't count; they are too different.) Their standard (in this galaxy) SC4 ships are Turn Mode A/Nimble. Their standard cruisers are Turn Mode B, and their SC2 ships, both Neo and Archeo, are Turn Mode C. How many other races have Turn Mode C Heavy Dreadnoughts? Even the Neo-Tholian Battleship turns at D, which is the same as a Fed or Gorn Heavy Cruiser.

In open space fleet actions, the Tholians usually do best with tactics that emphasize manueverability. The pinwheel is a specialized capability used in particular circumstances. It is NOT the primary Tholian fleet tactic. I don't see the Tholians changing all that.

Now this proposal is of course more mobile than the standard pinwheel since it is warp-manueverable. And as a specialized capability for particular circumstances when shields/durability are more important, I think it is an extremely interesting idea. But like the basic pinwheel it should not be the primary tactic.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 08:24 pm: Edit

What I'm thinking is having an XPC that can form up with a second XPC to temporarily create an XC. After a decade I'd allow a third XPC to form up with the XC creating an XD. The ships could detatch at any time and form up at any time using existing rules ship seperation rules (G12.9). While related to the pinwheel this merger of hulls is done at hard points designed for this manuever and uses no pinwheel rules.

The Tholians would never build an XC or XD, they would just assemble them as need and availability allowed. Turn mode would drop by one category per merger.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 09:51 pm: Edit

We'll call it "ThoLegos"

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:48 am: Edit

I don't actually think the ability to build a dreadnought out of "lego" tholians would be as one sided as people seem to think.

If I have DPX, a DDX and 2 PCX in the formation of the two PCXs as the Left and right, the DDX as the centre and the DPX as the front vessel and I have to spend 463 BPV but the ability to form the trident will pronbably make these vessel more expensive so we are probably looking at 556 BPV.

My PCXs loose their respective LS and RS arcs, so I can fire from them; 4 LF+L Ph-1s + 1 LS Ph-1 and 4 RF+R Ph-1s + 1 RS Ph-1.

The DDX will only be able to fire through the RA arc and thus one point 1 RR & 1 LR Ph-1s at anything.

And the DPX will only be ably to point FH Ph-1s, 1 LF+L30° Ph-1, 1 RF+R30° Ph-1, 1 FA+L30° Photon and 1 FA+R30° Photon.

When one considers what that is in each arc:-

LF	2 Photons + 10 Ph-1s
RF	2 Photons + 10 Ph-1s
L+30°	1 Photon + 10Ph-1s
L-30°	5Ph-1s
R+30°	1 Photon + 10Ph-1s
R-30°	5Ph-1s
LR	2Ph-1s
RR	2Ph-1s

Considering how many Phasers you'll have on 556 BPV worth of X2 vessels, the unit is not over armed.
Now the ability to put up 30 points of BTTY based SSReo on the 108 boxes of the #1 shield might make this vessel into a complete monster, but again against 556 BPV worth of X1 or X2 vessels, it's not really all that frightening, an XCA will probably have 48 sheild boxes but be running round with 12Ph-1s, be able to point about 10 in an obliqueing attack and have about three times as many heavy weapons it can point around so what the tholian makes up for with two and a quarter times as many sheild boxes it looses in having about 33% in Heavy weapons and a price tag about double that of the XCA.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:50 am: Edit

Upping the turn mode from A to A+3 is a heavy drawback too.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Tos Crawford:

There's a problem with your idea. Presumably, XPCs will not carry webcasters. Where do the webcasters on XCAs come from? Your idea could work as an expedient temporary method for increasing ship size in certain situations. But the Tholians will also need XCAs that are designed from the begining as optimized X2 cruisers, complete with webcasters. They may not have many since the Tholians can only produce webcasters in limited numbers. But they will unquestionably need some.

MJC:

See previous webcaster comments. Also, why do your Tholians not have Phaser-5s (or whatever the X2-phaser is)? The Tholians have had top quality phasers ever since they arrived in this galaxy. The problem with your idea is not that the ship is too strong, but that it is too weak at that BPV. It's too unmanueverable and has too little firepower and will be crushed by a competent opponent. I say again, the Tholians perform best in fleet actions when they adopt tactics that use manuever rather than raw firepower plus "bricking" shields. The webcaster makes that even more true, not less.

I still like the basic idea of "something like" a pinwheel that can manuever at warp speed. But it needs to be an expedient tactic for specific circumstances. It should not be the standard X2 fleet tactic. Even at MY/GW tech levels, three PCs manuevering seperately but in coordination are better than a pinwheel in the great majority of circumstances.

One of my misgivings about a lot of the X2 proposals in general is that people are being too clever for their own good, to the point where the ideas are bordering on "cute". Yes, we want new capabilities at X2. But I at least would hate too see X2 become cute. The cuteness factor is the single biggest reason why I personnally don't care for most simulator races or the Omega Sector.

These remarks were not intended to be insulting to anyone and I apologize if any one takes them that way.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:34 pm: Edit

In Module R5, most races got New Heavy Cruisers based on their War Cruisers. The Tholians got a Heavy War Cruiser (CWH) that is more like a very powerful light cruiser. (32 points generated power + 4 points reserve, 4 disruptors + 7 phaser-1s (also 2 phaser-3s), shields 30 all around, turn mode B, breakdown rating of 5, so one safe HET.)

In Module R10, the Tholians got the CAN (power 35+5, but only 24 points of power is from the warp engines and movement cost increases to 1, 6 disruptors, 5 phaser-1s, 2 phaser-3s, same shields, turn mode c, breakdown rating of 4 so no safe HET).

Though the CAN has BPV of 140 and the CWH has BPV of 135, I think the CWH is superior in almost every tactical situation. The superior top speed, superior available power at attainable high speeds (the CAN has only 7 points for weapons at speed 24 after paying for HK, the CWH has 12, and even at speed 15 the CWH has the edge by 18 to 16) and the superior manueverability more than make up for the CAN's superiority in raw power and raw weaponry, in all but a few cases.

Now this comparison is obviously flawed in several respects. For one thing, "lego-type" X2 Tholians would presumably still have the same top-end speed as "conventional" X2 ships. Also, the CAN and the CWH have the same shields, while a lego-type XCA might well have better shields than a conventional XCA, based on the pinwheel model. On the other hand, in MJCs example, the lego-type Tholian is clearly undergunned. I would request that people at least think about the CWH vs. CAN before deciding that large but unmanueverable ships are the way for the Tholians to go at X2.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

"There's a problem with your idea. Presumably, XPCs will not carry webcasters."

The problem is the presumption.

Even if an XPC did not field a Web Caster then the XDD should. Allowing XPC+XPC or XPC+XDD or XDD+XDD to join gives you all the combinations you need. Allowing variants to join, say an XCV + XPFT makes an instant XSCS.

I am opposed to allowing more than three units to join up and would prefer it be limited to two units for the majority of the Trade Wars.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:08 pm: Edit

Tos:

Well, maybe. But I'm still not convinced. For one thing, I'm still dubious about webcasters on any ship smaller than a cruiser in this galaxy, unless webcaster production rates increase substantially.

I'm also dubious about the XPC+XDD combination, though the XPC+XPC and XDD+XDD combinations seem plausible as light and heavy cruisers. The problem with XPC+XDD is the difference in mass and warp engine power. This doesn't matter with a pinwheel where the ships join at the stern and cannot use the warp engines for movement. But a side-by-side joining with the resultant unbalanced combination manuevering as a warp-powered warship strikes me as problematical.

Finally, there's the issue of flexibility versus performance. The hard points and docking equipment required to allow this attachment/detachment should reduce ship performance relative to the same resources and technology devoted to an optimized permanent cruiser. But the ability to combine two small ships into one large one or to seperate them at will is the more flexible option. Both have advantages.

The Tholians have already proved at both the GW and X1 tech level that they can permanently wield smaller hulls together to produce small but excellent-for-their-size cruisers and dreadnoughts (well, not dreadnoughts at the X1 level). So how about this as a compromise. The basic Tholian X2 hulls are the XFF (or XPC if you prefer), the XDD, the XCL, and the XCC. You can combine two XFF or two XDD to create temporary ad hoc light and heavy cruisers, but they would have no webcasters. This gives you flexibility. The XCL (one webcaster) and the XCC (two webcasters) are built only in very small numbers as optimized permanent cruisers. This gives you maximum performance for situations requiring it.

Regarding the XCV and XPFT, the latter might be viable, but I find it difficult to believe the Tholians would still use fighters at the X2 level. (Keeping them in limited production for the NSCS and other older tech carriers is another matter.) The Tholian PF outclasses the Tholian fighters (both in absolute terms and in cost efectiveness) by a greater margin than that of any other race, IMO. Why would the Tholians want to devote limited X2 production to continue to support fighters, when the fighters themselves are so inferior? (Actually, one possible answer would be that at X2 the prohibition against any X-fighters other than the Stinger-X no longer applies, and the Tholian X2-fighter is a HUGE improvement over the standard tech version. But if at X2, it becomes possible and cost effective to build X2-fighters, why shouldn't it also be cost effective at that level to build XPFs? For whatever my own opinion is worth, I would just as soon not see X2-fighters except possibly for the Feds and Hydrans.)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

The Tholians are a defensive race under threat of extinction. A squadron of fighters, particularly heavy phaser toting web laying web powering mega fighters with 12 pilots are much cheaper to maintain economically then keeping 180 PF crew members sitting on a base awaiting an attack. Maybe its just me but I can see the Tholians being very concerned about the return of the Seltorian Tribunal or a repeat of Operation Nutcracker.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

The Tholians mount various command modules, collars and rear hulls in various combinations using GW tech. Why should it be difficult for them to do the same with X2 tech? Would your objections be mitigated if the XPC and the XDD had the same movement cost?