IIRC, X2 involved far smaller numbers of ships than GW/X1. Races were exhausted - and focused on producing a few, superior ships.

If that were the case, have WCs on XPC or XDD woudl be very reasonable.

Even if that weren't the case, the Tholians will have built up a few decades of WC production. Isn't it possible they've finally worked out the kinks? Can they do nothing right?

By Charles E. Leiserson, Jr. (Bester) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:40 am: Edit

Give the XPCs "mini-webcasters." The capacitor holds, oh, say half of the energy of an X2 webcaster, and the weapon has half the range. When two XPCs are combined as an XCA, the mini-casters can (if desired) fire in tandem as a full X2 webcaster. Three XPCs combined as an XDN could fire each caster separately, one standard and one mini, or one super-caster of 1.5x (both in range and in strength).

Would this be too complicated?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

Tos:

First of all, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, if it seems otherwise it's because I want to concentrate on areas where we disagree. As for your specific questions:

I agree that the Tholians are a defensive race and that they have to be very concerned about the Seltorians returning. As far as the Tholians know, the next time the Selts may have X-ships of their own, or improved Hive ships that can support Dreadnought production in this galaxy, or both. Big problem.

Where I disagree is that this justifies X2 fighters or X2 ships carrying fighters. Defensively, the fighters could be stationed on a BATS or planet. There's no need for an X2-Carrier. The Tholians might indeed engage in very limited offensive operations to disrupt Seltorian activities. These would be temporary, short ranged affairs and the speed/range of X-ships probably wouldn't be necessary. And if X-ship speed were necessary (perhaps to hit the facility before the Selts (or Klingons?) could reinforce), an XPFT still seems to me to make a lot more sense than an XCV. Yes the PFs cost more, but the improved performance is worth it in my opinion.

This returns us to the issue of the fighters themselves. You mention "heavy phaser toting web laying web powering mega fighters". But this is somewhat incorrect. The Spider-V (the Tholian fast heavy fighter) can plausibly be described as "heavy phaser toting" since it carries 2 ph-2s, for a total of 12 phaser-2s in the squadron. (The Spider-V and Spider-VP (the photon version) are in fact the only Tholian fighters that have decent firepower compared to their counterparts in other races.) But NO Tholian fighter is "web powering" or in the strict sense "web laying". Rather, they are "web spinners". A web spinner can draw out zero-strength web from a ship/base with web generators or snares (or web casters acting as generators) but the web is unpowered until the spinner hands off anchor duty to a true anchor, i.e. another Tholian ship/base or an asteroid. No Tholian fighter can ever act as an anchor to a powered web, nor can it put maintenance/reinforcing energy into a web.

In contrast, two PFs out of the standard flotilla of six have true web generators (upgradable to snares) replacing the ph-3s. PFs can lay/maintain/reinforce webs entirely on their own. A better solution against Seltorians would be to make all four "standard" PFs the web generator version (there is no W version for the Leader or Scout), thus doubling the amount of web reinforcement the flotilla can provide.

If X2 fighters are allowed, this might change. But allowing any fighters to actually reinforce web would be a huge change from current rules.

I have also already agreed that XPC+XPC or XDD+XDD are reasonable. It's the XPC+XDD that bothers me. If the XPC and XDD had the same movement cost AND the same warp engines it would mitigate my objections, but then the XDD wouldn't really be a destroyer. It would be an alternate configuration of the XPC. I just don't see the need for the XPC+XDD combination.

Regarding Command Modules connecting/disconnecting to Neo-Tholian rear hulls - note that unlike a pinwheel the shields are not additive. Also, a pinwheel requires that at least one of the ships have operating web generators or snares. A Neo-Tholian rear hull and Command Module can connect/disconnect even if all web generators or web casters have been destroyed. Also, pinwheeling ships do not temporarily lose their shields when they disconnect. A Command Module that has disconnected from the rear hull has no shields for 32 impulses. The capability we are hypothesizing is much more akin to pinwheel than to Command Module seperation, if only because the shields add together on a pinwheel and without that the capability would be of dubious value.

Tony Barnes:

Actually, the Tholians do a lot of things right. Some things they do better than any other race in Alpha Sector. In fact they are so good in some respects that allowing high-rate web caster production can pose serious balance problems despite their limited overall resources. Not that they become invincible, but that the balance becomes very "unstable" at the campaign level.

Those two decades worth of webcaster production have already been used up equipping Archeo-Tholian Heavy Dreadnoughts and CCXs, both of which will still be viable in the early X2 years. And the focus on a few superior ships seems to me to mitigate against an X2 Tholian fleet where all heavy ships are temporary ad hoc combinations of small ships. That temporary combination is worth pursuing for the flexibility it enables. But there are times when you need the maximum performance you can possibly achieve. And I still don't believe that these temporary cruisers could equal a deliberately designed cruiser, assuming comparable resources and technology available for each effort. The capability to connect/disconnect freely has to have some kind of opportunity cost.

I hate to sound argumentative guys, but nothing you've said convinces me that the X2 Tholians won't have at least a few ships designed (within Tholian limitations) as cruisers from the ground up. And I still believe those ships will absorb the limited webcaster production.

Of course, as we all know, the Steves will make the ultimate decision.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

The concern about the Selts returning would not be great and having them return with X-Ships is un-likely.

You have to remember that the Seltorians found the Tholian some 200 years after setting out to find them. They would have to send word back along with ship design improvement notes and then the Selts in the home galaxy would have to devlope these and then send out a new expidition. That would be probably another 200 years before it could be possible. What is the greatest threat from the Seltorians is another band of hunters happening to find them. Though by X2 they might not get the same reception as before.

What the Tholians have to worry about is a resurgence of hate from the Klingons though given recent cooperative events this is probably not a great threat. The Tholians did take part of the Empire and settled it, sole it even, but recently they worked to save the Empire as a whole. They sacraficed lives and ships to save the galaxy. The Klingons might not have a mind to hate the Tholians so much...for a while anyway.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:42 am: Edit

Sorry, I didn't make my post very clear. I didn't mean the Tholians would use 2 decades of WC stockpiles to arm their XPC/XDD.

I meant that they've had that long to expand their production facilities and learn to "mass produce" WCs.

I also agree that ad-hoc XPC+XPC/XDD+XDD should be the only cruisers. There should be XCL, XCA, etc as well. I just see this ability as a neat side ability.

I also also agree that XPC+XDD shouldn't work. I can see that at some point the core ship (if/when 3 ships are allowed) could be different. XPC+XDD+XPC for example.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Charles Leiserson:

That's an interesting idea. For it to work, mini-webcaster production would have to be at a higher rate than standard webcaster production. I can see problems with it but don't know if the problems are game-breaking. Off the top of my head, here's the problem as I see it. Allowing large numbers of mini-webcasters would allow even a small Tholian force to create lots and lots of web hexes, severely messing with the enemy force. On the other hand, the individual webs would be weak, so the messing might not be that severe after all. On the third hand (What? You never heard of the Tholia-Hydrans? Tholian Gatling Phasers - Hmmm.) even a weak web would block the enemy's direct fire weapons and the shear number of web hexes the Tholian force could create relative to its BPV might be unbalancing for that reason.

I don't know how all this would shake out, but I think it's worth further consideration.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit

Loren,

I don't recall any substantial historical cooperation from the Tholians with either the Klingons or Romulans. I could be mistaken or missing something, of course.

In Operation Unity, the Tholians worked with the Fed/Kzinti route.

By Charles E. Leiserson, Jr. (Bester) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

Hmmm... what about restricting a mini-caster to one or two hexes of web in addition to halving the range and capacitor? The net result would be very much like an X-snare at long range, but a bit more defensive at close range.

Or the mini-caster can produce only half-strength web (based on what a normal caster would spit out) if fired on its own, making it a half-caster in nearly all abilities. This doesn't necessarily mean that an XDN would cast web of 1.5x strength, but the option could be re-examined once the Xorks' capabilities are know.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Loren:

I'm not sure you're right in your interpretation. The Selts took 200 years to find the Tholians after they started looking, but that doesn't mean the travel time was 200 years. Maybe that Selt force had investigated multiple galaxies before finding the Tholians in this one. Also, the Seltorians may have set up some sort of permanent installation or outpost nearer than their home galaxy. This would be similar to the Andro installation in the Magellanic Cloud (don't remember off the top of my head whether it's Greater or Lesser cloud). For that matter, there might be Selts in one or both Magellanic Clouds. (I also don't remember off the top of my head whether there are only two.)

Finally, even if both these are false, (i.e. the closest permanent Selt installation is in the home galaxy and the travel time itself is 200 years), the Tholians don't know that. They have to be prepared for the possibility of the Selts returning soon, and perhaps with greater force.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:46 pm: Edit

IIRC an expedition was each sent to a target galaxy. A midway post wouldn't work as it would be in the middle of nowhere, quite literally. Support of it would be very costly (each supply-run taking decades) and would be for supporting a yet as unknown operation. Also, the midway point between the Milkway and the Selt Galaxy isn't anywhere near anything else (at most one or two other galaxies but unlikely) and would then be only in support of the MW Operation which they don't know is an actual operation.

In any case, that's why the Selts built the hive ships; To set up operation where ever it is that they end up finding any Tholians (and they are not sure they ever will) they can set up an operational base there.

It is possible they could have set up a base in the greater Magellanic cloud but that would be contrary to the Hive ship reaching this galaxy. Why would they set up the hive ship there though if they didn't know that the Tholians were here? Additionally, when they did find the Tholians the remained with all the units they first appeared with. That say to me they didn't set up anything anywhere else. They couldn't have set up in the LMC because they would have been wiped out by the Andromedans (who set up the early on).

As to the travel time between galaxies: Well, the Neo-Tholians physically made the trip here, not through the wormhole that the escaping old Tholians did. They arrived earlier than the Selts (??) which would explain some searching time but basically it amounts to a very long trip that would be impossible to support a war from. In any case it will be at least 200 years before the Selts could arrive with a new offensive (unless another expedition showed up but they would be non-X just like the other Selts and would get creamed even faster than the ISC did to them).

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Tony: OpU involved every one and the assault on the Desecrator was a mixed fleet involving a lot of races. I would ask, as a member of a single fleet in the biggest fight for their lives, wouldn't you cast some web to save that D7W from getting slammed so that it can survive and help to win the war? I cannot imagine this not happening. Klingons worked together with Tholians in Objective Juggernought so it is possible for them to put aside their differences for a greater objective.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 01:40 pm: Edit

The Tholians already have a mini-web caster.

It's called a Snare.

By Charles E. Leiserson, Jr. (Bester) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 01:40 pm: Edit

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We'll call it "ThoLegos"

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:08 pm: Edit

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Also, why do your Tholians not have Phaser-5s (or whatever the X2-phaser is)? The Tholians have had top quality phasers ever since they arrived in this galaxy. The problem with your idea is not that the ship is too strong, but that it is too weak at that BPV. It's too unmanueverable and has too little firepower and will be crushed by a competent opponent. I say again, the Tholians perform best in fleet actions when they adopt tactics that use manuever rather than raw firepower plus "bricking" shields. The webcaster makes that even more true, not less.

I still like the basic idea of "something like" a pinwheel that can manuever at warp speed. But it needs to be an expedient tactic for specific circumstances. It should not be the standard X2 fleet tactic. Even at MY/GW tech levels, three PCs manuevering seperately but in coordination are better than a pinwheel in the great majority of circumstances.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:48 am: Edit

MJC:

I disagree with your assessment of the Tholians for several reasons. Your points in order:

1) Improving the phasers would be a very high priority for Tholian R&D in the X2 era because of the web/phaser interaction. They gain more from this than from any other weapon upgrade, other than some hypothesized improvements to the webcaster. And webcaster improvements need to be approached carefully (from an out-of-game perspective) because some of them can "break" the game. Also, leaving the Tholians with inferior phasers to other races would change the racial "feel" since they have always been one of the best phaser races in Alpha Sector.

2) No, they are not a "warrior group", they are a refugee group. And they are certainly capable of doing original R&D. Note that there are a number of capabilities thay have in this galaxy that the Home Galaxy Tholians never had. Federation R&D assistance may partially account for this, but it certainly can't account for it all, since some of the capabilities are things the Feds can't do. Note also that the Tholian prohibition on Legendary Engineers does NOT apply to Neo-Tholian ships (even in this galaxy) or Tholian X-ships.

3) The ability to combine that many ships, and the ability to move it under warp power, would require a great deal of R&D in its own right (probably more than R&D upgrading the phasers and webcaster). The issue is not whether X1 ships would be better or worse than X1 ships that also had the Trident capability. The issue is whether the effort to develop this capability (assuming it is even possible) is worth the opportunity costs. The short answer is no. They would be much better off with conventional (sort of) X2 improvements, especially improved phasers, webcasters, snares.

The Uber-Dreadnought concept also fails in that it is only relevant in cases where the Tholians mass a bunch of X2 ships together. These occasions will be rare. And not having more conventional X2 upgrades will put them at a disadvantage during the many many more actions when they only can afford to send one or two ships due to other commitments/lack of resources.

4) See answer to number 1) above. The Tholians have always been at (or tied) the top of the heap in phaser capability and they would make considerable effort to remain there.

On Tactical Doctrine. Your example of "smashing a base" is mistaken. This capability doesn't help against an enemy base because of the Tholian webcaster capability. The Tholians can already destroy an X-Starbase and NOT TAKE ANY DAMAGE AT ALL if the Starbase doesn't have strong mobile defenses (fighters, PFs, or warships). With webcasters the Tholians can completely negate the Starbase's firepower unless they have to repond to a manuevering enemy. But in that case they need to manuever their own ships.

(Granted, the Tholians don't have all that many webcasters, even by the X2 era. But they are primarily a defensive race and don't attack enemy bases or planets often either. For those very rare occasions when they do (perhaps to destroy/disrupt some key logistics node the enemy is using to support operations against the Holdfast) they would certainly allocate adequate webcaster support to the mission.

Bottom Line - Combining two small ships to form temporary ad hoc cruisers is a useful capability if it doesn't interfere too much with other X2 development. The ability to combine many ships to form an Uber-Dreadnought, at the expense of all other Tholian X2 tech, doesn't make sense.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

The why the history is written, it seems like the tholians gained a lot of knowhow when the 312th arrived. The rules say that going to X-tech would not have been possible otherwise.

So I'll agree with Alan. The Tholians may have been scraping by until the 312th arrived, but afterward, they start rockin' (pun intended).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Currently I've been delving deeeeply into the Tholians as did some writing about them and am doing more. I know SFB history pretty OK but I had to get straightened out on a lot of stuff, some of it was sort of between the lines stuff.

The Tholians do not have an expanded life span in their GPD template so it is likely that they will have lifespans of 70-100 years. This means that the Tholians on the ships of the 312th are the decendants of the Tholians that escaped the Seltoians. It too about 200 years for them to reach Tholia and their ships were severly worn and required a lot of time to rebuild. Operation Nutcracker was in full swing but it took nearly a year for the 312th to join the battle. Yes, it provided the Tholian examples and records of other technologies but the bulk of the work R&D would be conducted by the Tholians themselves. I doubt the Neos taught their decendants how to create anything but rather taught them how to survive and maintain their ships. They probably taught them all the combat stuff they could but none of the Neos had any actual combat experience (that is recorded anyway. I suppose they might have had to fight someone somewhere to get here. It wasn't the Selts as they were some three years behind them.

When the arrived in the Milky Way they were a...Rag tag fugitive fleet searching for a place called...Tholia

Sorry, couldn't help that. My fingers made me do it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I'd have to partly disagree.

Tholians before 312th: Web Caster? We have old record that talk about those...

Tholians after 312th: Web Caster? We're making plans to produce those again...

From (R7.60) in Module C2: ...The later production of X-Ships, which would have been impossible without the full cooperation of both factions... (The factions referred to are Holdfast-Tholians and 312th-Tholians).

Also, According to the description in the Basic Set, The Tholians were deposed 200 years ago. "Ago" as measured from when? There's no good answer since the entire game is phrased as past-history. Given the MY orientation of Basic Set, let's say the year of reference is Y160. which tenatively places the Seltoran Revolution at Y-40.

The maximum possible travel time would run from Y-40 to the first Tholian appearance in the Alpha Sector, which is Y83, according to the service date for the Tholian PC. That means the original Tholians took around 120-125 years to make the trip. We can't expect a Tholian exodus to occur before the handwriting was on the wall so the departure date should be close to whatever date the Seltorans are considered to have "won" the war.

I'll be the first to admit there's lot of room for play in this. My estimate for the Seltoran Revolution is just that. Change it and everything else changes with it.

Also remember that the original Tholians didn't just leave. They took a whole planet with them. Once can expect that they wouldn't be able to travel as fast as the 312th could.

Still it doesn't matter. It's still 200 years since the fall of the Tholain Will.

Loren, where do you draw your evidence about Tholian lifespans in SFB vs. GPD?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

The Tholian racial template does not include any definition of life span so it defaults to the Average Life Cycle. This per the powers that be just yesterday. I needed to know for a story. However, some points are still in discussion.

To see the specific referance read the Extended LIfespan advantage in GPD Pg. 56. Full age rules are not in GPD yet but this does define Average and Extended for now.

I'll look it up but I thing the Acheo-Tholians arrived here through a worm hole or something. It is defined in a scenario somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

"lifespans of 70-100 years. This means that the Tholians on the ships of the 312th are the decendants of the Tholians that escaped the Seltoians. "

Or they had some cyro-sleep available.

Use 1/2 the crew for the first 1/2 of the trip, the 2nd 1/2 of the crew for the last leg.

Just pray not to run into monsters between the THG and the Milky Way.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

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But they are primarily a defensive race and don't attack enemy bases or planets often either. For those very rare occasions when they do (perhaps to destroy/disrupt some key logistics node the enemy is using to support operations against the Holdfast) they would certainly allocate adequate webcaster support to the mission.

Bottom Line - Combining two small ships to form temporary ad hoc cruisers is a useful capability if it doesn't interfere too much with other X2 development. The ability to combine many ships to form an Uber-Dreadnought, at the expense of all other Tholian X2 tech, doesn't make sense.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit

Actually, it might be kind of cool if done right. Here is how I could see it done if something like it could be done.

You have a specialty PC or DD class unit. If each has a working web generator they can join together and operate as a single unit. And SSD is provided for each unit. One as a single, one as a double cruiser and one as a triple DN. Each of these would have shaded boxes. Regular clear boxes would be what is on the PC and shaded boxes for the DD (so two ships in one).

If you fly two PCs you use the two separate PC SSDs. If you join them then you switch to the combo SSD. The combo SSD has the revised arcs. Weapon that can no longer fire or have limited arcs would be noted as such.

To join or separate you use the docking rules and spend an extra point for Web on each unit. (A double must spend two web points and use two generators. A triple uses three points and three generators). Docking rules have specific speeds and directions to them and this fits this. This ould take the entire turn to do.

Each separate unit counts as a command point for fleet purposes because the Tholtron is limited to tactical warp only. It cannot disengage by acceleration while joined.


MJCs concept is one that would be unique for X2 and if done like above would only require three SSDs for any combination of units. It's a fun idea I think and not to powerful. With the premade combo SSD it eliminates a whole mess of rule. Want to combine? Here is what results, no question, very few new rules. It's all on the SSD. Simple.

It could be said that this design takes a lot of structure in the individual hulls and so variants are not possible. CV variant units cannot work as the joining does not allow this (would pin down or destroy the fighters) and would disrupt sensors on scouts. This is important to keep it simple.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

MJC:

Your "Uber-Dreadnought" is not a very useful ship for either offense or defense, in spite of its shields. It's not that the concept only works in high BPV situations, it's that the concept doesn't work at all.

The Tholians will encounter many situations where they will only be able to respond with one or two warships, and they have to develop their X2 technology with that in mind. Their X2 ships must be able to fight up to their BPV and class in conventional (within the parameters of web technology) fashion. This means upgrades to power/weapons/shields/other systems similar to other races. But the emphasis may be different. Most valuable of the weapons upgrades would be improvements to webcasters and phasers, because of the web/phaser interactions. Disruptor or photon torpedo upgrades, beyond X1 level, are relatively less valuable. The Tholians should not forego power system/shield/phasers/webcasters improvements to pursue "Trident" capability. But they might pursue that capability in preference to disruptor/photon improvements. It seems to me that a plausible Tholian X2 tech development path might have improved web technology and phasers/shields/power systems/other systems (ASIF, EW capabilities, etc.) but only X1 disruptors/photons. But in exchange for not having upgraded torpedos, they have the capability to temporarily join two XPCs (which are not just PCXs) to form an ad hoc cruiser, if the situation warrants it. You seem to be hypothesizing a development path where the Tholians pursue Trident technology in preference to anything else.

And even if the connect/disconnect capability costs no extra points, a CCX, 2 DDX and 2PCX costs 678 BPV. For 688 points you could just get 2 CCX and 2 DDX, which is superior to the Trident/Uber-Dreadnought in every scenario. In fact, in the majority of cases I would rather have the CCX, 2 DDX, and 2 PCX manuevering seperately than formed together for the Uber-Dreadnought. But what the Tholians will really need is to have the PC, DD, and CA/CC upgraded to X2 capabilities.

One more time, with regard to the Tholian phasers. The reason that the Tholians should place a priority on phaser upgrades, in preference to non-phaser wepons other than the webcaster, is that phasers fire through web and other weapons do not. You continually refuse to address this fact, which would likely be a critcal driver in Tholian R&D efforts. No other Alpha Sector race relies as much on its phasers as do the Tholians. Suggesting that they should "have a different position on the ladder" in the teeth of the Tholian imperative to maintain powerful phaser armament makes about as much sense as suggesting that disruptors should become the big crunch-power weapon and photons should be the high rate-of-fire weapon, just to be different.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:46 am: Edit

Loren:

We haven't even discussed power costs yet, but your estimates are way too low. It costs three points of power to hold together a conventional three-PC pinwheel and that only manuevers with impulse power. Even with the help of docking hardpoints, if the trident is going to manuever at warp speed, I suspect it will take a lot more than that to hold it together.

And it will also require more new rules than you think. To take one example, what happens if the last web snare (there wouldn't be any ordinary web generators by this time) is destroyed by enemy fire? For the standard case, the pinwheel is considered involuntarily seperated at the end of the turn. But if the Trident is manuevering at warp speeds, the seperation may be more immediate and/or violent. Or maybe not. In any event, thr rules will have to address it.

If you are advocating that one specific class of Tholian X2 ship can form Tridents as part of its X2 upgrades, but the Tholians will also have "conventional" X2 Cruisers (not very many, given their economic resources), than you and I agree. But if I understand MJC correctly, he is advocating that the Trident ability be the only, or very nearly the only, Tholian X2 upgrade and that all large X2 ships be Tridents from X1 ships. If that is the case, I disagree strongly. The problem is not that this would be too strong but that it would be too weak.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 02:02 am: Edit

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Your "Uber-Dreadnought" is not a very useful ship for either offense or defense, in spite of its shields. It's not that the concept only works in high BPV situations, it's that the concept doesn't work at all.

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One more time, with regard to the Tholian phasers. The reason that the Tholians should place a priority on phaser upgrades, in preference to non-phaser wepons other than the webcaster, is that phasers fire through web and other weapons do not.

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But if I understand MJC correctly, he is advocating that the Trident ability be the only, or very nearly the only, Tholian X2 upgrade and that all large X2 ships be Tridents from X1 ships. If that is the case, I disagree strongly. The problem is not that this would be too strong but that it would be too weak.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 08:13 am: Edit

I've tended to stay out of this discussion, as I don't often play Tholians and have no really good notion of what to do with an X2 web caster, or any X2 web technology, period. I will weigh in on the phaser debate, though. I think the Tholians, more than anyone else, are going to want the best phaser they can get. They're almost totally a defensive race, and hiding behind webs is the Tholian tactic of choice. Having phasers that shoot through those webs is what makes that whole concept work. If they can't make something else that will shoot through a web, then an X2 phaser is going to be of tremendous interest.

Now, after playtesting the various phaser types proposed, I really do think that the phaser-x I've been toying with works really well for the Tholians. The basics of the phaser are this; it does less damage on a one-to-one basis than a phaser-5, or even a phaser-1, particularly at ranges of less than 8. However, it has a smoother damage curve at mid to long ranges, and has the ability to be group fired as an array. Basically, for every two phaser-x's in an array fired offensively at a single target as a narrow salvo, you subtract one from the die roll. The most phaser-x's that can be "fit' in an array is four, so the best result you can get is a -2 on the roll. That's actually pretty damned good, especially at middle to long range. Up close, it isn't as good as an average quartet of phaser-5's...but then again, they cost less to fire. For the tholians, with that little grouping of four FX phasers in the nose of their little ships, it's perfect. Another ability this system has is a two-stage firing choice, like the hellbore. While all damage done in an impulse is considered one volley, choosing to fire in the first stage or second is a big advantage. It can also fire defensively as paired P3's. All in all it's a very flexible and useful system. The trade off, of course, is that they aren't mounted in large numbers. The most I've put on any one ship was 8; one FH group of four, and two smaller groups of two covering the L+RA and R+RA arcs on a cruiser.

While I haven't playtested this system with a Tholian yet, I have done quite a bit with the Feds and Klingons, and have started a bit with the Romulans (took a long time to work out the right kind of torpedo). It's a neat system.

This SSD ( 2X Tholian PC) shows a PC with a phaser-x array, and a pair of p-1's for extra oomph at close range. And, if you look at these graphs, which shows narrow salvo average damage for each type, you get a feel for how the three phasers compare. One for one, the P5 is much better than the P1 or PX. In a group of three, where the Px has a -1 die shift, it starts to do better at the 6-8 bracket. This trend continues with a group of four, and has the PX better than the P1 at every range except point blank.

Anyway, thought you Tholian fans might find it worth looking into as an option. I don't have much to say about any of the other debates going on, save that I can't really comment on the k'nex tholian idea without seeing it done on paper.