Archive through April 22, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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Archive through April 22, 2004
I tend to agree with John about the BPVs. Figure the CA or whatever you call it should stick around 250-280. I also agree that the ISC CCX is over-valued...at least in a duel. Might be worth that in a fleet action, but one on one I don't see it.
As far as I can see - and Brodie alluded to this in the phaser-5 thread - Chris, John, Loren, Brodie and I all agree on a few very basic but core points:
- X2 ships are not designed as combat monsters and do not follow the normal progression of upgrades seen in the GW, i.e., from Fed CA to heavy command cruiser.
- The X2 fleet is smaller, and has to be more well-rounded.
- Phasers should be better, but mounted in lesser numbers.
- Emphasis on heavy weapons provides racial flavor.
- Generated power shouldn't be much (if any) over X1; some special system would be used to increase reserve power as needed (i.e., special capacitors, turbo-warp, etc.)
Probably not a perfect list, but I think its pretty close. Now the issue is to agree on some of these things.
It might be interesting to work in pairs on a design, with the only limitation being BPV. Then we can compare them and see what's alike and what isn't. Anyone interested?
I'm in.
I concur that the ISC CCX is overvalued (though it is powerful) but to make up for it, I also think the ISC CLX and CSX are undervalued. Compare an ISC CLX at 185 BPV to a Gorn HDX at 205 BPV.
To get back on topic - I still think the Tholians should be the exception to the "phasers - better but fewer and racial flavor based on heavy weapons" idea. The web/phaser interactions provide a compelling reason for Tholian ships to be phaser-heavy, particularly now that webcasters bring this dynamic to offensive actions as well. I'm not saying that the Tholians should have no heavy weapons, but they should maintain a larger percentage of their firepower in phasers. The phaser-heavy emphasis of Tholian ships would be their racial flavor. I think non-phaser weapons technology upgrades should focus on the webcaster and would just as soon see their disruptors/photons remain at X1 tech levels.
Just my .02 quatloos worth.
Mike's P-X proposal would make a nice compromise along these lines.
Alan, I agree with that. The Tholians being a more phaser-oriented race works just fine for me.
Hmmm, the P-X as a Tholian-only weapon. Not even the Orions could use it, and it would give them a hellacious defensive weapon to play with. Might work at that. Figure no changes to disruptors, and maybe some fairly simple changes to the web stuff.
Okay how about Federation X2-"main" cruisers in the following BPV ranges:
230-260 Lower limit
250-280 Polled average
270-300 High average
290-320 Upper limit
Make it with whatever X2-tech (phaser mix, photon, battery, ASIF, etc.) you think fit. Make sure you have an R-section-type description including the design philosophy and special notes if you use variants on some tech or other. Keep within SVC's basic guidelines. If you do come up with something that really looks different, try to also make a variant of it that looks more like what we're used to for comparison.
Use whatever reference material you want (John T's webpage, Mike R's stuff, this Board, etc.). If you've made some SSDs before keep them handy in case someone wants to reference them as well. Note somewhere which reference material you've used.
Who wants what range(s)? Who wants to team with who? What's our deadline? Bear in mind schedules and so forth. Make sure your team mate at least has your email address.
Anything I've forgotten?
On another note, I like the idea of Tholians being phaser-centric. They're surrounded by seeker races and phasers work best. I can also see them focusing on internal strenghthening (ASIF, etc.) as well, possibly more than other races.
Also I've had to put my Tholian Web Torpedo project on hold as I mis-packed it during my PCS move-out. It'll be waiting for me in Hawaii later this year.
Sure. Who's pairing up with who?
I dunno.......I'm just here for the drinks.
Mike, you can add my name to your list.
Personally I'd be loking at the Upper Limit myself for the Feds.
I've already got one in the polled average range so I'm going to try for the lower limit. Anyone with me? My email address is in my profile.
I'm with you Brodie. I'm of the opinion we should shoot low as chances are we will find the synergy of our changes will result in a higher BPV then we expected. I also feel its always easier to up gun a ship should our BPV turn out to be too low.
X2 BPV = X1 BPV +/- 10%. Preferably –10%
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. The +/-10% CX thing would make the XCA around 216-264, so let's shoot for 225 for now. These BPV ranges are going to be educated guesses until we really start playtesting these things. Pretty much everything I have ready right now is on John T's website or here. I'm thinking about using Mike R's photon (the new flexible 16pt version rather than the older 20pt version).
Something else I was thinking about trying was taking a Fed CB and swapping out the phaser suite with X2 phasers. See where it BPVs out. Then swap out engines, then EW, etc. I'm suggesting the CB vice the CX because the pre-X BPVs are generally more stable. That's not to say we can't playtest against a CX later on. My biggest problem is I'm not in a position to playtest.
Okay, here's my entry. Didn't partner up, but I have a feeling for what people here do and don't like.
R2.?? Federation XCA
X2 Basic Premise: X2, at least in Y205, is not as combat capable as X1. Ships are more well-rounded, more flexible, and are in general typified by "quality over quantity". The XCA is, as always, the work horse of the Fed fleet.
Ship Design Philosophy: To meet the above, the XCA as all the features that made the old Constitution class ships so successful; plenty of lab, good phaser array, lots of hull, and well-balanced shields. It has two probes, for extended research missions, and four NWO boxes for some flexibility. For long range patrols, you get cargo. For special science missions, you get lab. Any option but weapons or power. The ship is very, very "Fed"...turns like a rock, and will crush you if you get too close.
Things to Note:
- No ASIF. This ship has, instead, regenerating shields. For five points of power a turn, the ship will automatically self-repair five points of shield damage to any damaged shield. Repairs cannot take a shield above its normal maximum, and the system does not repair reinforcement. It will only work with full shields.
- X2 Photon. This is the photon I've playtested. It has a standard warhead of 10, with the expected optional warheads. This photon can still be fastloaded, as with X1, and can fastload standards or proxies as well. Proxies no longer have to be designated during EA; the owning player may choose to fire standards or proxies at the moment of firing. Overloads up to 12 may be fastloaded. Any warhead armed over up to 16 points is considered a standard load. Anything over 20 points is considered a heavy load, and requires 3 points of power to hold. Feedback and arming costs for heavy loads are in proportion with the normal photon (i.e., 10 points to arm a 20 point heavy).
- The P5 can fire as two P6's with X-aegis control for 3/4 point each. It can be hastily repaired as a P1.
- X2 drone racks have two magazines, for faster reloading time. Drones themselves are unchanged from X1.
- X2 ships are equipped with the advanced shuttle from J2.
- Labs get a -1 on seeking weapon rolls, and a +1 on science information gathering rolls.
- The S-bridge works as defined on the chart, and may perform one function per turn at no cost so long as the ship has at least one undestroyed lab box.
- X2 batteries are the same as X1.
- X2 ships have movement precedence over X1.
- X2 ships have the same EW abilities as X1.
- Anything not listed is the same as X1.
That's it. Thoughts?
Mike;
Question on regenerating shields - Do you mean that you repair 5 boxes to every damaged shield? In other words, if all six shields werer badly damaged, would you repair 30 shield boxes for only five points of power? Also, does this shield regeneration stack with ordinary shield repair through damage control? Personal Opinion - Yes to both, though this might require bumping up the BPV. It makes the X2 ships much more survivable without giving them autokill-level firepower. This seems to me appropriate for the X2 concept.
Question on phasers - How much does it cost to arm a ph-V or a ph-VI? I've heard both 1 point and 1.5 points suggested from time to time for the former but haven't heard if it has been settled (pending SVC/SPP decision, of course). Personal Opinion - 1 point and 1/2 point arming costs respectively. The ph-V beats the ph-1 given equal numbers, but is not necessarilyly superior at a ratio of 3/2. With a 1.5 arming cost, this begs the question: why not simply retain the ph-1 and make each cluster 3 phasers rather than two? This would outgun the current set up at close ranges but lose out at longer ranges, but would also make the XCA more damage resistant.
Question on movement precedence - X1 has movement precedence over standard tech except in the case of nimble ships. A nimble standard tech ship still has movement precedence over a non-nimble X-ship. Does a nimble X1-ship likewise have precedence over non-nimble X2, or is X2 precedence absolute? Personal Opinion - X2 should have absolute precedence over standard tech but X1 nimble should have precedence over X2 non-nimble.
Another thought, this one on shuttlecraft - instead of giving the ship six shuttle boxes, give it four + one "double size" box. The ability to use a heavy shuttle might be very appropriate for the Jack-of-all-trades X2 cruisers. Heavy shuttles would not be included in the BPV, however. They would have to be purchased.
Alan,
Quote:Do you mean that you repair 5 boxes to every damaged shield? In other words, if all six shields werer badly damaged, would you repair 30 shield boxes for only five points of power?
Yes. That's one reason for ditching the ASIF. Sounds like alot, I know. But when you consider that all six full shields are raised for only two points, it isn't so bad. And I know from playing experience that it isn't easy to come up with that 5 points all the time; not when arming those photons, trying to move, and playing EW. Also, it should be noted that once a shield is totally down, there isn't anything to regenerate...not until you repair at least one box the normal way.
Quote:How much does it cost to arm a ph-V or a ph-VI? I've heard both 1 point and 1.5 points suggested from time to time for the former but haven't heard if it has been settled (pending SVC/SPP decision, of course).
1.5 and .75, respectively. P-6's cost .75 no matter if they are downfired from a P-5, or from a stand alone P-6.
Quote:X1 has movement precedence over standard tech except in the case of nimble ships. A nimble standard tech ship still has movement precedence over a non-nimble X-ship. Does a nimble X1-ship likewise have precedence over non-nimble X2, or is X2 precedence absolute?
Not absolute. X1 nimbles get precedence.
Interesting idea on the shuttle bay.
Any ship can operate an HTS in place of two of it's shuttles so there is no need to make a change on the SSD. Simply note that sometimes X2 cruisers operated with an HTS in place of two admins. Still that requires the same shuttle box layout.
Mike, an interesting departure from what you've done before. Even so I think I detect some nostalgia kicking in there. I noticed you have 4 NWO boxes but only 2 NWO tables. Okay, no Phaser-X? No Warp Capacitor?
I like it. But, I would like to see a box for the Regenerating Shields (I have one on my SSDs). Something that can be damaged or the target of a H&R raid.
I'm for keeping it a built-in shield capability, but how about you lose some regenerative capability when DAMCON boxes are destroyed, or if all HULL is destroyed you lose it?
Brodie,
Yeah, it is a little nostalgic, isn't it? 
Missed that with the NWO. Fixed, though. I'm operating under the assumption that the Tholians would use the phaser-X exclusively, as their new weapon. No WPC's, either. I actually found that I didn't like them very much. I had toyed with an idea for overload capacitors...heavy weapon capacitors that store overload energy. You have to pay for normal arming costs, but can draw from that power to overload weapons. That way there's no "shuffling" power.
Chris, I thought about it but decided against it. The notion, to me, was that it isn't a single device doing the regenerating as much as it is a new form of shield. Since shield generators on normal ships can't be hit by H&R teams, I didn't want these to be, either. Frankly, the relatively high cost of using the damned thing makes it hard enough. Even without EW or anything like that, HK costs for this ship is 9 points.
I'm working on an XCA for the Tholians. Based on my earlier comments, it will only have a webcaster and two disruptors for heavy weapons (it will also have snares) but will have a powerful phaser battery with 12 ph-X in two four-phaser arrays and two two-phaser arrays. I'm aiming for a BPV of about 230, which is actually more than the CCX, but less than the NCX. (This will be an Archeo-Tholian design. I'm assuming no X2 Neo-Tholian designs since they can't build these hulls from scratch and X2 tech is too radical to upgrade old designs.) I'll probably use Mike Raper's regenerating shields rather than ASIF. The shields will be somewhat upgraded from the CCX, but the disruptors will be X1 only. I've got a couple of ideas for the webcaster and snares, some of which have been semi-playtested and some of which have not. Ultimately, the target BPV may be way off. I'll probably need someone's help to make the thing look presentable.
(edited for speling, er.. spellimg, er... never mind)
Proposed R-section write up:
(R7.???) Advanced Cruiser (XC) Shaken up by the arrival of the Seltorians and then the Andromedans, both possessing technologies that could circumvent webs, the Tholians experimented more radically with ways to improve their phaser firepower than did any other race. As a result, they achieved a breakthrough in phaser technology that no other race was able to copy. So effective were these new phasers, firing in arrays, that some tacticians suggested Tholian main-line warships should mount webcasters and the new phasers only. The Tholians never went that far except on their Advanced Corvette designs. But Tholian ships from about Y205 on consistently had more phaser firepower but less heavy weapon firepower than their counterparts in other fleets. Though the Tholians did upgrade their webcasters, their photon torpedo and disruptor technology did not advance beyond first generation x-technology.
Ship names: Guardian, Beowulf. (The latter was the Federation reporting name for a ship named after a mythical Tholian hero who had protected his people from all manner of monsters.)
Yeah, it's probably too wordy. I'll try to have the SSD done sometime this weekend.
