OK, been a busy several weeks; just cought up on this discussion. Carnivon (DOGS) making nice with a Lyan (CAT)? OK. I always wanted to have them incorporate into the Kzinti arena if they went diplomatic with anyone. Lets see, Drones & Deathbolts... work well together. Lets see Y-1 referance to the Kzinti ALMOST using the disruptor cannon. OK. They are pack hunters that love to swarm their pray. Drones (or deathbolts) + fighters + ships = terror.
Deathbolts + ESG armed ships... I think that the Lyran CVs were not widely used for some reason... OH YA! THATS RIGHT! There were too many incompetant or panicy Lyran CV skips that killed the fighters and drones and used up the ESG when they screwed up. Do a right up on both. It will be fun to see them surviving either place.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 04:33 am: Edit

While we are at the canivon making nice with cats...
They can get together with the WYN in the cluster. Suddenly, the WYN could be a real power (maybe).

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

I think the most fun with the Carnivons, would be to make them independent and holding the Kzinti, off map area snug up against the Federation border. Then make them the Klingon allies, along with the Hydrans. Which would force the Lyrans, and Kzinti to join forces in the general war. Now that would be a "cat" fight. Meooowww

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

I'm really looking forward to range 5 Heel Nippers.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 05:50 pm: Edit

There was a lot of Carnivon discussions in the "return of the Carnivons" thread.

IIRC, the Carnivons disappeared before the WYN system became inhabited...and the 'history' seems to indicate that the Carnivons did not manage to reach the WYN system first.

That said, I would be doubtful that either of the Lyrans or the Kzintis would spare the Carnivons.

One thing that has not been pursued, is what would either the Lyrans or the Kzinti's do if they discovered a minor or major world of Carnivons?

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

Jim- I like the idea of the Kz/Fed junction; but I wouldn't side them with the Klingons. Maybe neutral, maybe minor alliance. I had invisioned things this way, just hadn't worked out some of the details.

Longer Range HN.... I have been looking forward to this w/ great salavation!

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

"I have been looking forward to this w/ great salavation! "

Did you hear a bell?

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Steve; another option:
Have the Carnivons occupy part of the off map Federation sphere of control, and part of the Kzinti off map area. They are discovered by the Federation, and the kzinti find out. The Kzinti attack and are move into Federation calimed territory starting a Federation Kzinti war. The Klingons attack the Kzinti " In support of the Federation" publicly, to remove and opponent in truth.
However the Lyrans who are still smarting from the loss of Hydran territory due to their view that the Klingons pulled out support. Attack the Klingons when their attention is diverted.
The Hydran seeing the Klingons on a two front war decide to take advantage and attack. The Vudar revolt, and the Klingons now need to appeal to the Federation for assistance.
How's that for a shadow history. Cats as allies, Federation aiding the Klingons fun all around.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit

Deep and dark into the shadows. Could be an interesting 'what if'...

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 12:19 am: Edit

Ryan-No, I was trained with a proximity stimulus. If the enemy ship reaches given range... then drool. If the ship closes to range... lick chops. If the enemy is stupid enough to let you get their shields down- beam dinner party to ship and commence meal!

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Jim: Dang, that's one I could belive in!

Of course the Federation would be trying to drive off the Kzinti, protect the Carnivons (who may not care to be protected), and denouncing the Klingon attack. Not a great position to be in.

Federation response to Klingon troubles should be to a certain extent 'you did it to yourself, now leave them [Kzinti and Vudar] alone', tempered with the desire not to let the Klingon Empire get too unstable.

The main problem (from an F&E standpoint) is that the initial primary theater is happening in the (purposefully) ill-defined off-map area.

Now if there was a reasonable excuse for a Pavarian revolt, you could have the entire West Map boiling over! (Not to mention needing two more sets of counters... :P)

Ah, well, maybe stick to the simpler version...

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:02 am: Edit

James: The SSJ module could contain and extension of the F&E map into off map area (which would only be theoretical as its SSJ) and a few play test Carnivon counters and an F&E scenario or two to attract the F&E crowd. As well as some general war Carnivon Sod’s and scenarios for the SFB followers. Then throw in some Carnivon PD material. And Bang sell it to everyone.
SSJ War Dogs on the Horizon. Or SSJ Dogs of War.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:50 am: Edit

I'm actually thinking of an F&E map overlay for the Vudar and one could be done for the Carnivons as well.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:11 pm: Edit

ooo, overlays are fun

By Patrick McDowell (Pmac) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Ooooh! Could we get one for the ISC too???

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Huh? The ISC take up the entire right side of the map....

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I was more worried about the counters. And yes, SSJ should have something for most everyone.

The main problem I'd have on the Carnivon overlay, is that in this scenario, it's really an extension to the Fed and Kzinti front, the Carnivon are possibly of LDRish size (if they were agressively expanding everyone would probably have known there were there - somewhere - ahead of time), and are just the 'bone' of contention.

I think some special rules for two races trying to fight where both don't know the terrain would do for the F&E scenario, and some of the more unique fights that may generate done as SFB scenarios. That way both groups get something a unique look at the same conflict.

On the other hand, that does make the Carnivons a footnote in the F&E scenario that features them... so maybe that's not such a good idea.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Here is how the Paravians were done in SSJ2 (to get your mouth slobbering wet.)

The Paravians can be used 3 ways in the GW time:
1) Replace the Gorns (1-1, Gorns gone, Paravians in)
2) Paravians control Gorn off-map area and invade
3) Paravians invade in territory between Gorn+ISC (the blank hexes) Gorn keeps off-map.

The Carnivons can just as easily (as one variant without the overlay) just enter between 0401 and 0901.

By Jay K Gustafson (Jay) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

How about a Vulcan early year dreadnought.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:46 pm: Edit

How about a Vulcan early year dreadnought with scout channels!

By John Pepper (Akula) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:10 am: Edit

Another interesting idea that I had for a new ship might be J3 material might be SSJ 3 material.

Take an interdiction carrier and remove one set of 12 shuttle boxes and replace them with APR/AWR. The other fighter squad is replaced with Assault Fighter/A-10's initially and heavy fighters later on. In essence this ship sacrifices its weapons so that it can rearm attack/assault fighters.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:40 am: Edit

How about MAD ships? Assume that the various powers considered the idea of warships mainly designed to slip in and utterly destroy enemy planets, as a balance of terror thing?

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:50 am: Edit

Vulcan DN? Ok I'll bite... GALACTIC SURVEY SHIP!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:17 am: Edit

Could the shadow of Ken Burnside please send the files?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Well...its been quiet for a couple days...lets throw out some "red meat" to see if any one bites down on it!

Federation Experimental Attrition Fighter,F17
by Jeff Wile. (YIS=180)

After the Romulan Invasion of the Federation, the General War was almost at full conflagration. The Strategic Planning Group for the United Federation of Planets were finally forced to acknowledge that the war could no longer be 'contained' to the 5 powers (Lyran, Hydran, Kzinti, Klingon and Federation).

The Federation could adopt a formal "attrition" strategy, using fighters, interceptors, and bombers wherever and whenever possible with the intent of 'bleeding' the Coalition of ships, PF's and attrition units. In the actual event, the Federation Starfleet decided against building PF's while they continued to build and deploy fighters and bombers, and eventually megapacks for fighters.

One program not funded was the attrition fighter (or some sources refer to the 'lightweight F-18' program) which was a similar approach to that followed for the F-7 fighter.

It was recognized early that the life expectancy of fighters in a high combat threat environment was not great...in some cases less than 32 impulse between launch and destruction. Inaddition, the launch rate for drone ordinance was such that it was not a rare event that F-18's were destroyed before they had a chance to launch all of the drones that they had hard points to carry drones on.

The YF-17 program had originally been intended as a complement to the better (and more expensive) F-18. When the F-18 turned out to be a superior fighter, the F17 was "defunded" or zeroed out, as unnecessary in the forseeable future (this dating back to year 171, just prior to the Klingon invasion.) Even after the Klingons invaded, there were some senior officers who were not unduely alarmed, after all, the Federation had fought the Klingons previously, and survived.

What changed was the threat posed by the combination of Klingon Lyran and Romulan forces operating in Federation Territory.

As a direct result the F-17 was restarted with the intent of feilding a cheaper attrition fighter that would provide a decisive savings in economic terms while still allowing the federation to deploy the vast number of squadrons needed for the defense of the Federation.

The Design considerations were:

1. No built in Phaser or Phaser Gatling. Since the F-17 was not expected to survive beyond 1 turn of close direct combat, the single shot Phaser pod was determined to be sufficient.

2. No more than 2 type 1 Fast Drones, and the same drone control function as the F-18.

3. Self defense/Dog fighting rate identical as the F-18 (DFR=3).

4. F-17 would carry no more than 2 dog fight Type VI drones.

5. To enhance the the F-17 in direct dog fights with other fighters or PF's, 2 RALAD's would be mounted on special rails. to lower cost, no other ordinance would fit on these special rails.

6. the speed of the F-17 was 13, same as the original F-18, but not upgraded to faster speeds as later F-18 models were.

7. Damage the F-17 could withstand was 8 (not the 10 the f-18 had).

8. the YF-17 could operate warp or dash pods.

The structure of the F-17 was a much stripped down version of the F-18, with the absence of the phasers, and significant redundant features of the F-18 eliminated, the F-17 could not withstande the same level of damge that the F-18 could.

The BPV of the YF-17 is 4.

Pros:

A cheap attrition fighter intended for defense missions after the Federation entered a period of Economic exhaustion.

Cons:

Not as capable as the F-18.

the 25% cut in structure reduces the expected survival rate of this type of fighter in combat. the fighter not chosen for production as pilots would have a lower chance of survival in combat. Only a last choice for a Federation losing the war and needed to cut the acquistion cost of new fighter squadrons deployed on MB's, FRD's, BATS, Starbases and planets where the superlative F15's, F16's and F18's couldnt otherwise be afforded.

The YF-17 was massively redesigned (and cut down to size) after the Romulan invasion. the redesign effort took several years to accomplish, hence the YIS date of 180.

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