Brodie, Example:
Speed 32->impulse 16
Speed 30->impulse 32
Hexes moved = 31
Impulse not moved = 17

This leaves X2 ships the same speed per turn as GW but gives them the added flexibility of moving on impulse 1 where others cannot.

A number of people feel speed 32 would be unbalancing. I'm not sure, but this would be a compromise between the two camps.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Here is an interesting little tid bit. What if X2 engines, what ever power they may be, had more torque, so to speak; An ability to "grab a hold of space" better than past generation ships. The result is that for purposes of tractors and such each ship is double its normal move cost.

The move cost for moving is normal and the ship need not resist an allied tractor but if tractored by an enemy the ship is counted as moving twice its actual speed and twice the size.

This would give movement precedence to the X2 ship in many cases and cause the enemy ship to have a very hard time towing the X2 unit.

This would be in effect against any enemy ship even another X2 ship but the X2 ability would cancel out the others (since it can grip space equally well).

Does this make sense? This is just off the top of my head and I haven't reviewed the pertinent rules so I'm not sure it does.

Black Hole and other terrain effects would be halved as well.

Add, so long as the ship is using warp for movement. Tactical warp may or may not count.

Oh and sorry, no, this wouldn’t halve damage from TR Beams. It would apply to Star Bases tractoring but wouldn’t make a difference.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:55 am: Edit

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Quote:

Does this make sense? This is just off the top of my head and I haven't reviewed the pertinent rules so I'm not sure it does.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 02:48 am: Edit

I meant that the warp engines could resist out side influence better.

For instance: Two vehicle are the same weight. One is wheeled the other has tank tracks. Which one could resist a tow line better with the same energy.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Reopened from the X2 plasma thread. I’m one of those who still supports EXPLORING speed 32 X2 ships.

I wonder if speed 32 for X2 on impulse 1 could be balanced with:
To achieve speed 32 and movement on impulse 1 an X2 ship forfeits its ability to HET, EM, ED, Change Speeds, TM increases by 1, etc. Therefore to achieve speed 32 an X2 ship must pay for and move 32 hexes. We could also play with disabling fire control for ships at speed 32.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 05:42 pm: Edit

I think that's a bit harsh.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

The problem is disabling FC for speed 32 is really a hollow threat. A halfway grasp for mid-turn speed changes means the ship only loses 8 impulses of FC, maybe 12 if they have to reestablish FC.

Unlike Bordie, I'm not impressed with that as a penalty to match the advantage of being able to reliably outrun GW-tech drones and non-sabot plasmas.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit

I'm really not impressed with John Trauger's ability to be vermently opposed to things without providing a detailed justification...JUST SAY NO indeed.


1) Yes you can out manouver speed IVF drones for three turns in a row if you move at speed 32 for three turn in a row.
But any ship that does isn't getting it'self into and out of the R8 critical range that that ship needs to visit in order to harm enemy shipping.
Furthermore Swordfish drones allow GW drones to fire on ships that move at such speeds and attempt to "sweep past".

2) Plasma can fire speed 40 Sabot and in the X2 Period all GW warships will be considered to be armed with Speed 40 Sabot.
Furthermore Plasma can be Bolted.

3) If these X2 ships are paying massive costs ( like 10 points of warp power for that move on impulse 1 ) then where the heck do they get the power to arm those dreaded X2 Heavy Weapons!?!
They don't. So what if you're Gorn BC has to bolt and fight with Phasers during the battle with the X2 Frigate...if the X2 Frigate has to put all it's extra power into movement then it'll be only able to fire phasers back at you and things begin to even out.

Forcing ships to move at speed 32 for the entire turn is just anotherway of making the power unavailible for weapons.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

...none of which are good reasons to actually ALLOW speed-32 ships

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:04 pm: Edit

MJC, please read my post in X2 Plasma on this subject. I should've posted it here.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Actually John makes a ton of sense.

The game is balanced for speed 31 units.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 05:18 pm: Edit

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Quote:

I'm really not impressed with John Trauger's ability to be vermently opposed to things without providing a detailed justification...JUST SAY NO indeed.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:26 pm: Edit

M.R.:

Okay, I give him credit for hosting.

Since we are debating ships speed I will say this; I've actually moved from 33+ to just 32.

My reasons are these.
1) Too many people will refuse to buy into speed 33+ ( my goodness, I've actually been accomodating on something ).
2) There has never actually been a period in SFB where the drones and ships are MAXED at the same speed.
YII and YV drones just can't keep up with YCAs and IM & IVM drones can't keep up with CAs and IF & IVF drones thrash the pants off of NCAs and VII & VIII out run CXs...there simply never has been a period in SFB where neither the drones nor the ships have a higher top speed and it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be fun for X2 ships to have a top speed of 32.

The fact that speed 32 ships means we might have to allow HETs and Warp TACS on impulse 1 and that the fresh shield it can bring to bear will increase the combat effectiveness of the ship means simply that the BPV will need to be pushed up a bit.

If we can create better ships by removing some of the old limitations ( without breaking the game and therein lies the rub ) then that would be a far better way of doing it than just upping the numbers...a 75 point Plasma R doesn't help the situation because the ship are already eggshells with sledgehammers.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

My reasons are these.
1) Too many people will refuse to buy into speed 33+ ( my goodness, I've actually been accomodating on something ).
2) There has never actually been a period in SFB where the drones and ships are MAXED at the same speed.


Neither of which are good *gameplay* reasons.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Speed 31 with bonuses on HETs, reserve warp and TACs etc are plenty. I do not want to see a Speed 32 or faster unit.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

I agree.

I just think it breaks too many things vs standard SFB tech.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

G.C.:

One of those two is.
IF SFB has never had a particularl point where something occoured and we can build such a point then that will generate new tactics and new ideas and that is good for game play.


C.E.F.:

What good is a third HET BONUS and 8 warp TACs in a turn with reguard to having fun?
Sure being able to jump up from speed 8 to 31 for 4 impulses will help a few players but very few players use the 6 existing mid turn speed changes ( except the Romulans looking for a YOYO ) of X1.


J.T.:

Does anybody have playtesting data that the ability to move ( particularly HET ) on impulse 1 breaks the game rather than just moves the ship up to a higher BPV state by being able to get that fresh shield to bear?

I have a hunch that the no movement on impulse 1 was thing was written to stop players demanding speed 32 with their ships during the period when plasma only when speed 32...there had to a threat from plasma and that threat was that if you got too close you died...the unrefitted Fed CA can move at 31 and pay house keeping by using a point of BTTY so it could make an attack run at fairly close range to good effect only with phasers and then move away ( or even holding three standard Photons ) so the Plamsa chuckers needed something that could be a threat to that and the combination of speed 32 Plasma and speed 31 ships was that threat...now that we have speed 40 plasma that rule becomes a little redundant.
As far as I can see anyway...if someone has some data that says otherwise, I'ld like to hear it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:28 am: Edit

MJC;

I don't have playtest data that moving on impulse 1 would break the game. But my favorite race is the Tholians, and I have played them in Early Years scenarios. Their superiority over comparable EY ships is generally greater than that of an X-ship over a comparable late-GW tech ship. One of the Module-Y scenarios pits two Tholian Patrol Corvettes against two Klingon D3 cruisers. I've played this particular scenario twice and though the forces are close in BPV, the scenario actually favors the Tholians heavily IMO, provided they play carefully.

Nor is it a matter of the BPV being "wrong" (again, IMO). Standard tech simply plays by "different rules" than EY tech.

The Tholians (or any Middle Years ship) have a lot of technological advantages over EY ships, but in my experience the biggest advantage is the synergistic combination of the Tholians having Phaser-1s when (almost) nobody else does and the Tholian's speed/maneuverability superiority. This speed/manueverability superiority allows the Tholians to always choose the range and gives them a much better chance at repeatedly hitting the same shield while ensuring that their opponent hits a different shield each turn.

Of course, the speed superiority of a Middle Years ship over an Early Years ship is much greater than 32 vs. 31. But then, a speed 32 ship could move on impulse 1, which might have other unbalancing effects. I don't know whether speed 32 for X2 would break the game against X1 and GW tech or not. I think it might depend heavily on what other tech improvements were incorporated in X2. But based on Tholians vs. Early Years battles that I have played, I do know that speed/maneuver superiority combined with qualitatively superior weapons can be a very difficult combination to balance and needs to be approached very cautiously.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:28 pm: Edit

"I do know that speed/maneuver superiority combined with qualitatively superior weapons can be a very difficult combination to balance and needs to be approached very cautiously."

The reason speed 32 works for me is it reduces the requirement for across the board weapons upgrades. Other than the P5 and a new drone rack type I would be OK with standard X1 weapons on X2 ships and upgrading non-weapon areas.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit

But what would be the fun in that?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Lots of little improvements, not just weapon improvements. Change the flavor of combat rather then simply adding more beef. Give the game a different feel.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Andros do that too. They're real hard to balance too.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I can just about guarentee that 99% of the people who buy X2 are going to want to see X2 weapons. Without them, why bother with a new module? Just put the X2 movement and system rules in a Cap Log. I don't want uber-X2 weapons (like speed 48 plasmas) but you have to have new stuff or it just won't fly.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Indeed........

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:19 pm: Edit

I would be fine with one or two new weapons, and then just little improvements on anything else done.