Archive through April 17, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(D) Weapons:
Enhanced Photon Torpedoes:
Archive through April 17, 2002
The argument about whether or not the Feds should have been able to improve the Photon over time is a non-starter. It puts the cart before the horse.
Demonstrate a VALID GAME REASON why the photon should be upgraded, and the historical pseudo-science can get tacked on as an afterthought.
Problem is, there is no valid game reason for any major change to the weapon. The photon is not wildly unbalanced. And everyone here should know that any major change (mega-photon, mini-photon, messing with arming cycles, etc) will simply not be taken seriously.
- Paid for by the committee to get a fast-repair photon
Johathan,
Well put...historical reasoning won't work. However, I question the validity of some improvements already made, or in the works, such as:
-any plasma ship getting to fire a speed 40 plasma.
-phaser g's on federation fighters
-speed 32 drones
-Stasis Field Generators
None of these have a particularly compelling, valid reason to be included, IMHO. But they were.
I can tell you why photon should NOT be "improved" (which seems to be increasing warhead strength or hitting more often). If it is changed, then EVERY other race will start lobbying to have its weapons upgraded.
It seems like the pro-photon group are the most vocal in their "whinniness" (spelling?). I don't hear the hellbore or PPD crowd screaming how they have been screwed over. Give it a rest. Photon torpedoes are one of the most powerful weapons in the game, if used properly.
Nobody is whinning! The board is for discussing topics of choice. If this topic is not your choice then....
Is this topic effecting other topics? Hmmm.
I love the Hellbore and hate the PPD. So what!
I'm sort of big on the historical reasons and I know that can't be the reason the implement a change but at least it's established that it not a reason to "NOT" change it.
Klingons got most of what they know from "The Old Kings", remember. Their improvements come from studying the old texts(I'm guessing about that really). So they might not be the inovators they appear to be. As for the Feds, I simply point out that WE ARE inovators. And the Feds have a huge R&D budget. As for the ISC. Their fleet is realitivly new. Their inovation should kick in later. The other races have been inovating quite well on smaller budgets!
So there ya go. IMHO 
Kevin,
Has it occured to you that photon players have more to say because they have more reason to say it? The PPD and Hellbore work just fine as they are. The plasma torpedos have a bunch of upgrades already, and are getting more! There's a thread right now about plasma sabots, letting ANY plasma armed ship fire a speed 40 plasma. Drones get frequent upgrades, to the point that a weapon that started out as a speed eight, 12 point damage warhead is now able to hit speed 32, carry multiple warheads, have armor, ecm, or a 24 point warhead installed. Disruptors we've covered. The point is that Photons are griped about for a reason...they suck under most circumstances. Yes, at range zero you can trash someone, and yes, they have a consistent damage over range; both great things to have. But the weaknesses of the photon (horrible accuracy at most ranges, expensive arming cost, the R1 rule and feedback damage) need to be addressed to keep the photon even. That's all we're suggesting, and we're trying to find a good way to do it. If you have good suggestions or critiques, I'd like to hear them (and I sincerely do mean that). But please, no more accusations of whining, or other such pointless ranting. We've heard it all before.
I hope this topic doesn't become a defence of an opinion.
The Disr is not the weapon that has been upgraded the most. That dubious distinction falls to the Plasma Torpedo. I'm not even counting the proliferation in types.(M,S,G,L,F,D) I've been playing SFB since before the Designers edition. The Plasma Torpedo didnt have. IIRC
- Last but not least Bolts. Which even have a proposal to increase the accuracy of. In another thread.
So it seems to be reasonable to allow some upgrade of the Photon. Except that the Photon is THE benchmark weapon. So i very much doubt that the Steves will ever allow any type of upgrade for it.
Kenneth,
Yes, you're right, and I'd forgotten about the bolting of plasmas. Loren, I don't want this to become a defense of opinions either...that's why I'm asking folks to keep it civil, and try to stay constructive.
Ya, I was hoping to break the patern.
Kenneth, do you still have your Zip Lock edition? Not real balanced but those were good old days, no? How about the old BPV system. The Fed DN was like...76 points. The POL was under 20? I can't find mine. They are some where. Those and the expantion packs are gold!
The DISR is one of the benchmark weapons too. Very common and did not recieve a lot of upgrading, true. The Feds would be more interesting to play if they had some more tactical flexabliy. The multi-ranged OV level offers some of that but its really only a variable size of punch. Not a tactical flexablity. So it down to this: Retrograde, long range poke, or move in and slam them. You miss, you get slammed.(I have a few more tactics than this but theres not too many) By y179 they must have came up with some kind of twist. I fear I'm just reiterating my previous points, so I'll stop now. Lets see what Hugh comes up with.
Guys I think that games like anything else must evolve or die. The fact is that if you are going to put an historical rationale to a game, then upgrades of systems will have to be part of the scheme. It is historically ridiculous that the photon does not improve overtime. The question is only one of balance. If you over-improve a system it could wreck the history, but if you create an improvement that is balanced then you by default improve the game. The reason being is you stir new interest in the players who then buy the products that have the new goodies. Therefore change is good for the game as long as it is done correctly, and that is what we are trying to do here.
Btw I finished the sep chart and should finish the rest by wed.
If you play without ECM, the photon is sort of OK, and perhaps needs no tweaking.
With ECM, those-low hit ratios become really horrible. In particular, a D5 typically has more spare power than a NCL, so can generally get a EW advantage.
Hitting on a 1-3 at range 3 for a photon is pretty poor when the DSR will hit on at least 1-4, probably 1-5.
Maybe some sort of ECM device that is not used if you're not playing ECM?
Loren: I wish i did. But all of that stuff basically got played unto the point of falling apart. As well as dissapearing during one of the numerous times i've moved. I've yet to move without basically loosing at least one item i would have preferred keeping. About the only thing i still have from those days is the old Supplement #2. With the intro of Xships and Andromedans. IIRC
We have our memorys....
How about this?
Hardened Photon Torpedo
Cost: 1 point of power (any source) applied at time of firing.
Application: Any standard, overload or proximity photon torpedo.
Effect: 3 free ECCM generated by the photon, in the same way that plasma torpedoes get 3 free ECCM.
Quote:The fact is that if you are going to put an historical rationale to a game, then upgrades of systems will have to be part of the scheme.
SVC answered this in a Nexus a few years ago.
The question then was - how come the phaser-1 has never been improved? [and here you note that the P1 has never ever had any upgrade of any description whatsoever, from ancient Tholian days to Y205, unless you count X-ships firing 2P3]
The answer was essentially that this would just mean a series of refits to every ship in the game, including upheaval of BPV and SSDs, whereupon after years of strife you're back where you started. As he put it, "A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. We have elected not to take that step."
The Phaser 1 is the improvement....of the Phaser 2. And its improvement is.....better targeting. So there's that. I'm not going to argue against SVC. But thats in the rules. I can't see it any other way. Check out the early years ships. Or the Klingons. Anyway.....
Hugh, back to you...
Not only is the p-1 an upgrade of the p-2 but phasers go from charging each one to having capacitors. Also downloading and hasty repair as a lesser phaser and downfiring is there as well. Need I mention mega-phasers. So again Jim, your argument doesn't hold much water. Needless to say the phasers in the X module are upgrades as well, eventhough Steve may change that(see Cap log 23). Nevertheless Phasers do have an improvement progression in the history.
Yes, the photon has seen a steady decline vis-a-vis the other heavy weapons in the game.
So what?
As I hope I made clear in one of the other Fed Treads, it is pointless to compare the photon to the disruptor or any other weapon. Nobody takes a photon against a disruptor. They take a photon SHIP against a disruptor SHIP. If there are other things available (ECM drones, good power curve, great escorts, super fighters, fast drones) that make the ships of the Federation viable in combat (in spite of a [perhaps] slightly disadvantaged weapon), then there is no reason for a substantial upgrade of the photon.
- but as for minor upgrades, I'm still trying to get that fast-repair photon.
Jonathan,
Yes, you are comparing a photon ship to a disruptor ship. Very true. But look at the comparison...say the "classic" Fed vs. Klingon. In general, Klingon ships have:
- more power
- better turn mode
- better firing arcs with both phasers and disruptors
- more boarding parties/transporters.
Now, in turn, Fed ships generally have:
- better shielding
- better phasers (all ph-1's, and some ph-g's)
- more durability
As the timeline has progressed, the disadvantages for the klingons have been systematically removed or lessened. The various refits (K, Y175, or B) increase phaser 2's to phaser 1's, increase shielding (in some cases by a VERY substantial amount) and lead to better drones, and wider disruptor firing arcs. In some cases, the arcs are truly enormous...over 200 degrees (I don't remember the exact figure, but I'm talking about the FH+L and FH+R arcs some ships have). Compare these changes to a fed ship over the same time; no change in photons at all, no change in offensive phasers, small increases in shielding and addition of ph-3's for defense, via the "+" refit. They also get the AWR refit to help with power needs.
Looking at this, it just looks to me like the Feds get the short end of the stick. A slight change in photons is a fair idea, I think. I don't want some drastic change, and I don't think anyone else does, either...just a small advance to give it some parity to the advances the other heavy weapons have recieved.
The photon torpedo is not broken, or even inferior. I see it regularly used in all types of games, both with and without EW. It wins on a regular basis, though not always.
In an equal BPV enviroment, Federation (or other photon armed ships) manage to fight on even terms with their counterparts from throughout the galaxy.
I'll give you a hint in making it more useable in action. Divert some of the overload energy into speed, ECCM, shield reinforcement and phaser capacitors. Don't try to make the photon the crushing blow weapon (though the threat of it keeps people from overrunning you) but more as a shield-breaker. The phasers are your REAL main weapon.
And also don't forget to use enemy toys against them. Every g-rack armed ship should have at least one ECM drone loaded. Plasma-boat Feds should make liberal use of ECP as well. Don't forget to arm your own scatterpacks as well. Type VI drones can give cloakers fits when employed properly (combined with a well timed SS launch and phaser strike).
No refits? Then your opponents shouldn't have upgraded systems either. At which point you're already a step ahead in the game.
Trust me, I play with a group of VERY savvy players. Any upgrade to the photon torpedo will mean everyone takes the Feds every time out.
Thank you Jeff for that honest observation. The majority of the players here seem to ignore any refits the Feds have received. And you are right, any improvements to the photon torpedoe will make the Feds pretty much the favored race.
I have found that a persons favorite race stays the same no matter what happens. I have played the game since it's inception and most of the guys that favored the Feds from the original set still do now, same goes for the other races. Sure you may dabble with new races but usually once you have a favorite you stick with it. I don't believe there is a clear cut "favorite race any more", nor will there be with all the new races and things that ADB has gifted us with. What I do believe is that new tweeks bring new interest and it's about time the photon got it's tweek.
Besides, haven't we been talking about late year changes? There is one thing that occured to me this morning while reviewing the rules. If SVC has been reading this I'll bet he been wondering when someone is going to mention the...dare I say it now...the AWR refit. An indirect impovement.
I still want to see what Hugh presents.
Loren,
As it happens, I did mention it indirectly in a previous post (April 17, 09:31). That addresses the power issue for the feds, but isn't much help with the overall problem of photon performance upgrades. Neither is the plus refit, which adds defensive phasers and some extra shielding. So for the purposes of improving the photon, no refit the feds recieved is material.